Riding 2-up

[pmdave]

I need to put together a presentaion on riding two-up. Got any suggestions for what I should cover?

 

pmdave

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

A piece I posted here some years ago:

 

=================================

 

Smoothness is much more important when riding 2up. You need to imagine yourself as a limousine driver, pretend your passenger is sipping wine back there, and do your best to not cause spillage. It's surprising how small jerky actions can not affect the rider at all, but cause the passenger to move all over the place: the rider is ready for everything (since he is the one making the control inputs), and is braced better (both hands relatively high up, on widely-spaced bar ends).

 

Engineers who work with human transport (elevators, trains, planes, etc.) often examine a mathematical function called the "jerk function" (hold your jokes, please). It works like this:

 

Vehicle position is defined as function of time, e.g. distance in feet from a reference point.

 

Vehicle velocity is the time rate of change of position, e.g. feet per second (or miles per hour).

 

Vehicle acceleration is the time rate of change of velocity, e.g. feet per second per second (or miles per hour per second, or "g's," where 1 g = the acceleration due to gravity of an object in freefall).

 

The jerk function is the time rate of change of acceleration, e.g. g's per second.

 

For passenger comfort, the jerk function must not exceed a certain value, and the smaller the value is, the more comfortable the passengers will be, both mentally and physically. For example, I get very uneasy when a commercial airliner pilot suddenly firewalls the throttles or snaps the plane into a turn, and people on subways would stumble a lot more if the operator suddenly stepped the train up to its target acceleration or suddenly applied the brakes, even if the actual magnitude of the acceleration/deceleration isn't that high.

 

The upshot of all that technical bullshit is this:

 

-the throttle should not be "snapped" open after the clutch is engaged; instead, gradually roll the throttle up to the desired acceleration. The lower the gear you are in, the more gradual this roll-on should be. If you're doing it right, your passenger can even be totally at ease during wide-open-throttle acceleration, since the roll-on helps her anticipate and prepare for what's coming.

 

-Likewise, the throttle should not be snapped shut just before gear changes; roll the throttle back down until you are cruising for a split-second at steady speed before you shift.

 

-The brakes should not be suddenly activated, even if only done to a modest deceleration rate; gradually squeeze the brakes.

 

-The brakes should not be held on continuously until you come to a complete stop. Why? You're decelerating at a fixed rate, and when you reach zero speed, the deceleration very suddenly goes to zero: very high jerk-function value, mucho headsnap and helmet-banging for the passenger. Instead, as you go from, say, 5 MPH to zero, gradually let up on the brakes so that you're exerting minimal braking effort at the time the bike actually stops moving.

 

-Avoid snap turn entries and turn completions. Don't shove the bar end to drop the bike into a turn; instead, gradually increase pressure on the bar to gently enter/complete turns.

 

Obviously all of the above - especially the braking and turning stuff - requires careful anticipation of where the bike is going and where it needs to be going in the next few seconds; make sure you know the bike well and get plenty of practice with basic bike handling and street survival skills before you start practicing your limousine skills.

 

I also recommend an accessory that I've found to be very useful for passenger comfort and security, the Buddy Belt. Basically a waist belt for the rider that has a couple of handles on the back for the passenger to hang on to. That way your passenger doesn't have to hug you the whole time, and you can both have a little bit of space. Makes for less helmet-banging.

 

[beemerman2k]

How about the rider taking responsibility for the passengers safety? That means, *wear protective gear* -- especially the passenger! That means, ride without your ego! That means, fun time is over (until you get to your destination ).

 

Other than that, nothing to add, really :smile:

[Francois_Dumas]

Two things I found important (for my passenger to know) when we started riding together:

 

1) how to get ON the bike. I've seen some weird techniques displayed over the years, up to and inlcudig putting the bike on its side stand and have the passenger then put all his/her weight on THAT sde when mounting.

 

- sit on the bike yourself, feet solidly planted on the ground.

- keep front or rear brake applied

- passenger puts left foot on left passenger step

- passenger moves body weight ABOVE the saddle, while standing UP on the step

- passenger moves right leg OVER the saddle, in between rider and (possibly) top case while still standing up straight

- passenger sits down

 

Easy peasy

 

2) (not) moving when riding

- when going through curves, have passenger watch over your shoulder where the bend is

- ask passenger to sit still when doing <5 mph manoevres

- tell passenger to relax otherwise

 

Also we know from experience that it is COLDER for the passenger than for the rider, especially on his/her back. Dress for it!

 

 

For the rider:

- KNOW that your bike will behave a little (much?)different with someone (and luggage?) loaded

- As Mike said: go SMOOTH on throttle and braking... anticipate ! Otherwise you'll have a ragdol on the back!

 

ATGATT !!!

 

PRACTICE !!!!

[jfremder]

Advanced pillion skills:

 

A skilled passenger can really add to the fun of riding in a spirited fashion.

 

Teaching them about posting (properly timed weighting of the footpegs) makes a big difference in cornering speeds and lean angles.

 

Showing them how to grip with their knees and use their hands on the the fuel tank to brace themselves against braking forces.

 

Explaining when to watch the scenery, and when to help the rider ride.

 

If you don't have an intercom then establish a rule for various prods, signals and gestures before you set out, for instance:

 

Push the middle of his back = go faster, I'm bored

 

Pat his legs or a give big hug = I'm really enjoying the ride, thanks, keep going (though watch out, it could be misconstrued)

 

[BanjoBoy]

The rider/driver needs to account for the extra weight of the passenger + passengers material possessions. (If touring) ie slower acceleration, braking, and turning.

The rider/driver needs to educate the passenger on how to be a "good pillion." ie how to mount/dismount the bike, (without knocking it over) how to lean with the rider/driver in corners, and what to anticipate if (God forbid) you both bail.

 

Have fun,

[Francois_Dumas]

Advanced pillion skills:

 

use their hands on the the fuel tank to brace themselves against braking forces.

 

 

 

 

I find this extremely intriguing ..... I would assume a physical stature and size that is very remote from Nina's and mine ....

[VinnyR11]

Good advice all.

 

I'd add that a detailed conversation before setting off is required. JFREMDER's post implies this. A not at all inclusive list...

 

1) What is your passenger's comfort level? Go over their expectations. Find out what fears they may have and try to address them before anyone steps over a saddle.

 

2) Let them know they are part of the ride and not "just a passenger" as in a car.

 

3) Describe what they will be experiencing. Describe how a bike leans into turns and how that makes the bike MORE safe, not less. Also, let them know how they can help in this process by proper body position.

 

4) Let them know that you will stay within their comfort zone, and make sure you follow through. They can control when you stop, take a break, and even where you go if they like. The more in-control a passenger feels the better it is.

 

5) Some type of helmet to helmet communications system is a real big help, but hand signals and loud voices can work if needed.

 

 

[Paul Mihalka]

When I was carrying passengers (I don't anymore) I always told them these basic rules: In a left turn look over my left shoulder, in a right turn look over my right shoulder, never put your foot down until I tell you to.

[tallman]

Search is your friend.

 

There have been several other threads.

 

 

Link 2

[elkroeger]

If I may ask a question:

 

I've read somewhere that the author of Proficient Motorcycling, David Hough, lives in Port Angeles, and is likely to be seen giving lectures on motorcycle safety.... Could this be "pmdave"?Could we be so lucky, and honored, as to have Mr. Hough lurking about?

 

hmmmmm........

[ShovelStrokeEd]

My standard advise to passengers:

 

"Siddown! Shaddup! Hangon!"

 

After that, it goes more or less down hill.

[Paul Mihalka]

If I may ask a question:

 

I've read somewhere that the author of Proficient Motorcycling, David Hough, lives in Port Angeles, and is likely to be seen giving lectures on motorcycle safety.... Could this be "pmdave"?Could we be so lucky, and honored, as to have Mr. Hough lurking about?

 

hmmmmm........

 

Yes sir, that is him, and we are very happy to have him here!

[pmdave]

Thanks everyone for the ideas.

 

pmdave

[pmdave]

If I may ask a question:

 

I've read somewhere that the author of Proficient Motorcycling, David Hough, lives in Port Angeles, and is likely to be seen giving lectures on motorcycle safety.... Could this be "pmdave"?Could we be so lucky, and honored, as to have Mr. Hough lurking about?

 

hmmmmm........

 

Well, lessee, "PM" could be Proficient Motorcycling, right?

 

pmdave

[Francois_Dumas]

Could even be Proficient Messaging.....

[Francois_Dumas]

My standard advise to passengers:

 

"Siddown! Shaddup! Hangon!"

 

After that, it goes more or less down hill.

 

Not sure where you'd put passengers on the sort of bikes you ride.....

[Albert]

I've spent considerable time 2 up over the last 40 years. One thing I learned early about touring 2 up is most passengers have a very different idea of "saddle longevity" than do the riders. If you're planning any kind of touring, and you want a pillion that enjoys it as much as you do, it's essential to allow for the differences in endurance.

 

As for the mechanics of 2 up I'm with Paul in that I ascribe to the keep is simiple theory. I never ask a passenger to be an active part of my ridiing. I know of others who have designated things like hand signals to their passengers. I personally find this (and any other form of "shared control") to be a bad idea. When it comes to riding a motorcycle I do not think that sharing responsibility or control is a good idea (just my opinion).

 

[Francois_Dumas]

I agree... simple is best. Nina 'just sits' on the back and takes pictures... and I take care of here entirely ! That's the least I can do after she's been taking care of ME these past 36 years

 

(Can you tell I'm home alone ????? snifff... )

[philbytx]

Dave,

 

All good stuff posted so far but I would add :

1. Ensure PROPER 2-UP TYRE PRESSURES.

2. Pillion signals the rider:

Permission to mount bike:

Deb stands on left side taps on my left shoulder, looks at me.

I nod, she mounts.

Permission to dismount bike:

Passenger waits until bike stops. Taps left shoulder.

I turn head left and nod toward ground, she dismounts.

 

 

[tallman]

Shouldn't that be "permission to mount the bike, sir"?

[TandemGeek]

1) how to get ON the bike. I've seen some weird techniques displayed over the years, up to and inlcudig putting the bike on its side stand and have the passenger then put all his/her weight on THAT sde when mounting.

 

At the risk of admitting to bad form, let me approach my real question with a pre-question & confession:

 

Q1. Assuming someone is of average size and weight, is it a major Bozo-No No to sit on your motorcycle while it is parked on the side stand?

 

Confession: I'm a somewhat compact person @ 5'8" & 155lbs - 165lbs depending on the season and I've never thought twice about remaining seated on my motorcycles with the side stand down. I've been doing this as long as I can remember, from dirt bikes through sport bikes and now on both BMWs, the R11S & RT. I can't ever recall having a side stand bend, bind or buckle nor have I ever felt like my bike was about to fall-over from my weight. Now, it's not like I was doing calisthenics or yoga while sitting there.

 

OK, given that bit of history... here's the set-up for the real question.

 

My wife is a petit thing @ 5'2" and 112 lbs and found all of the conventional methods of mounting the RT with the rear top case on to be a bit of a struggle. In the past, and as is the norm, I would mount my motorcycles and she would either swing a leg over and mount, or for the taller bikes she'd step-up on the left peg as I steadied the bike, ala the horse mounting method... noting that none of my previous bikes had rear top cases or other accoutramets that impeded my wife's leg from swinging over the back end of the bike. However, on the RT with it's fairly high pillion saddle and the top case she found herself struggling a bit, particularly once she's all geared-up in her over-pants, jacket, boots, etc.

 

So, being a bit of a farm-boy engineer who looks for simple solutions, I simply had her climb-on the '04 R1150RT like she was going to pilot the thing while I held the left bar end. Once she was seated on my Sargent low saddle I had her put both feet on the front pegs so that she could could push up and back to slide onto the pillion saddle. Once she's on and stable, on I simply mount by stepping over the front saddle and stand the bike up. Dismouting is simply the reverse: I put the side stand down, step off to the left, hold the left bar end and let her slide down to the pilots saddle and then dismount from there. We've done this quite a few times now and it seems to work just fine.

 

Q2. In light of brother Dumas' first step & comment, what's wrong with having my wife mount the RT this way? Am I at risk of over-stressing the side stand? Am I just not aware of some major instability in the bike when a single person of moderate weight is sitting on the bike parked with the side stand down?

 

Seriously, perhaps I missed the fine print or warnings in the owners manuals all of these years.

[Boffin]

The R1150RT's owners manual does caution against sitting on the bike with the stand down.

 

The trick foa a pillion mounting with a top box is to mount facing the side of the bike, left hand on riders shoulder, right hand on top box (if the pillion feels it necessary) left foot on peg, then step forwards over the seat with the right leg, finally turning to face the front as they sit.

 

Andy

[Francois_Dumas]

My wife is even smaller (I wonder if she reaches 5 feet on high heels) and I am taller than 6'.

 

It just doesn't seem logical to put weight on an already inclined body (a bike in this case) and putting all that weight over a 1 inch wide little metal stand, linked to said motorbike with some not-too-big bolts for that matter.

Especially with the risk of tipping the whole caboodle over, hinging over the little side stand and the rear wheel, lifting the front wheel up as soon as the rider loses his footing.

 

I have slipped on loose gravel and had trouble holding the bike up when that happens in spite of my considerable length and leg muscles.

 

So I really can't see why to take the extra risk of both falling over and damaging your bike in the proces, when it is not necessary to do so.

That risk is even doubled, as you will now have to upright the bike with TWO persons on it, from an inclined position. Makes even less sense.

 

So to both questions my answer would be: I think so, yes.

But, that's just my view

[beemerman2k]

My standard advise to passengers:

 

"Siddown! Shaddup! Hangon!"

 

After that, it goes more or less down hill.

 

 

Gee Dave, seems to me you got your chapter right here!

[philbytx]

Nah!

The word Sir and it's relationship to yours truly, dropped out of her vocabulary years ago

[Huzband]

I never ask a passenger to be an active part of my ridiing. (just my opinion).

 

Neither do I, but it happened last year anyway.

 

I was toting HotJamie (2bmwfan) to & around the Un. I was most impressed at how we could rail through slow & high-speed corners without any effort on my part. After a days ride, I realized how it was so easy. She dang near twisted the rubbers off the passenger pegs from weighting the inside pegs!

 

Phil taught that lady well.

 

Other than that, I'm with Ed.

[TandemGeek]

The R1150RT's owners manual does caution against sitting on the bike with the stand down.

 

Ah, so it does... It also issues the same caution for the center stand which makes even more sense. But, then again, after re-reading all of the various warnings in the US Rider's Manual I'm surprised neither of my oilheads have spontaneously burst into a ball of fire. Good grief, I didn't take note of just how many warnings were included in the manual during my post-purchase read through.

 

The trick foa a pillion mounting with a top box is to mount facing the side of the bike, left hand on riders shoulder, right hand on top box (if the pillion feels it necessary) left foot on peg, then step forwards over the seat with the right leg, finally turning to face the front as they sit.

 

Thanks. That's some great feedback. I'll see if Debbie is game to give that a try this weekend as it would simplify things.

[TandemGeek]

It just doesn't seem logical to put weight on an already inclined body (a bike in this case) and putting all that weight over a 1 inch wide little metal stand, linked to said motorbike with some not-too-big bolts for that matter. Especially with the risk of tipping the whole caboodle over, hinging over the little side stand and the rear wheel, lifting the front wheel up as soon as the rider loses his footing.

 

Perhaps... But as I noted, through some 38 years of ignorance I've never encountered any problem sitting on a motorcycle with the side stand down. Therefore, it's just something I never thought much about until I saw your comment in this thread and then thought back on my wife's recently adopted mounting technique.

 

Now, to be fair, one of the previous owners of my RT installed a rather large 'foot' on the side stand so the contact patch is more or less 8 square inches. Also, the stand on both BMW R-bikes is far more substantial than the ones on my previous bikes which were mostly Honda sport bikes. In fact, the side stand on my CBR1100 was down right flimsy compared to the one on the R11S. However, both BMWs have proven to be quite stable, even for those long shut-down stops at rail crossings where I often simply lay back and recline with my right foot up on the the bar-end (yet another bad habit).

 

Anyway, I guess I'm beyond help as I just don't find either of the recently acquired BMWs to be unstable when they're sitting on the side stand... so long as the front wheel is straight ahead or turned to the left. Of course, when the bikes are sitting on the side stand I tend to shift my weight to the right edge of the saddle so that it biases most of my weight on the wheels and not the side stand.

 

Don't Try This At Home: Now, being somewhat curious, after arriving home from work and putting on my slovenly, ill-fitted after work sweats and flip-flops, I thought I'd just see if my 165lb body could even get the 617lb RT to tip up onto the front wheel and side stand simply by putting my weight outboard of the left peg and side stand.

 

 

No dice... The RT didn't even budge until I turned the front wheel to the right... and even then it didn't really budge all that much. In fact, I was somewhat surprised at just how stable it was given how far-over the RTs lean on their side stands.

 

Now, given that when my wife is sitting ON the bike... and in fact sitting on the right edge of the saddle, her weight is actually centered and a goodly amount of it is being supported by the wheels as evidenced by normal sag in both front & rear shocks which, in turn, reduces the lean angle of the bike.

 

That risk is even doubled, as you will now have to upright the bike with TWO persons on it, from an inclined position.

 

Actually, once we're both seated on the RT and the suspension is settled into it's proper, loaded ride height the bike is quite easy to stand-up and put down. Again, my beloved is an excellent pillion given our 50k miles of riding the tandem bicycles together on and off-road who knows how to keep her weight centered. Trust me, you notice poor form on the part of your 112lb riding partner in a nano-second when the bike you're riding two-up only weighs 30lbs compared to a 617lb motorcycle like the RT.

 

I guess my reason for being somewhat lucid in my reply is, I fully appreciate the concern and understand why you have that concern. However, at the same time, hopefully you can appreciate why I just haven't had that concern... rightly or wrongly. I've just never had a problem nor have I heard of someone tipping a bike off a side stand simply by sitting on a bike. Now, I've seen bikes on center stands fall over, but that's a subject for a different thread.

 

Again, I appreciate your feedback.

[Francois_Dumas]

Point proven, thank you (YOURS, that is).

 

Now, I'm a pilot and I don't go trying to see if things fail, willingly. I do the same with my riding. So I'll just continue my technique and you'll be happy on your way with yours

 

Still, for the pillion to stand up and step over the saddle remains the easiest way to mount a bike with a top box. Errrrmmm... or so 'I' believe !

[lvnvbiker]

I have seen a few side stands break in the near 30 years I have been riding street bikes, but I will admit that the person on them when it happend was, well, large... The only ones I seen let go were on Harleys though and if you ever look at a HD side stand they are pretty stout, and I myself at 185 to 230lbs over the last 15 years have been doing the same as you sitting on the bike with the stand down never having one break. And like you I an likely to continue to do so until it does...

[beemerman2k]

Again, I appreciate your feedback.

 

 

I got some feedback for ya, That's a sweet "daily driver" you got right there

[TandemGeek]

I got some feedback for ya, That's a sweet "daily driver" you got right there

 

You know, I have to agree with you on that one. It gives me my year-round, daily dose of two-wheel therapy. There's nothing I look forward to during the week more than my daily ride to and from work.

 

 

Now, had anyone suggested I'd be riding a BMW last year at this time I'd have told them they're nuts: Honda guy for life. But then fate intervened and took my Blackbird away.

 

Given there was no replacement for the CBR1100 after '03 here in the states, I decided to look at the ST1300. That didn't trip my tigger at all, so I looked at the FJR: Nope. On a lark I looked at an R1150RT and was curious. However, not knowing diddly squat about BMWs, I called a family friend in PA, David N., who runs a M/C repair shop that specializes in Ducati and BMW but who also works on all other brands to get his feedback. While discussing the pros and cons of the RT his wife, Lisa, overheard the discussion and chimed-in: "What Mark needs is an R1100S!".

 

Never heard of it, but when I went looking the first one that popped-up was this '03 Replika. I'd remembered seeing the cups at the bike shows, but never gave them too much consideration. So, I decided to throw caution to the wind and go with David & Lisa's recommendation. After about 100 miles I began to warm up to the bike and once I put on fresh tires I became smitten! What it lacks in HP and Torque it makes up for in pure character and fun. And, how did I ever get by without hard luggage!

 

In fact, I liked the R11S so darn much that I snapped up the '04 RT when a co-worker headed overseas so my wife could figure out if she would enjoy doing some big-bike two-up riding again. Of course, this time on a bike that was really designed for two-up.

 

Hence, my interest in this thread. She loves riding on the RT, but just couldn't find an easy way to mount-up. We'll be giving the technique suggested by brother Boffin a try this weekend to see if that won't work better than her 'scooting on and off' the bike via my saddle.

 

[CoarsegoldKid]

I don't think the two of you will have the side stand fold or break on you. My wife has some difficulty getting on the our RT at times especially when she is tired. I've seen younger or taller or more spirited souls hop up without a hitch. Sometimes she does get aboard first with side stand down and I standing with a hand on the left hand grip. The problems encountered are that riding clothes are restrictive in permitting full range of motion in the hips and knees to step over the seat, and second the large top box means she can't swing her leg over the rear of the bike while standing on the peg the way I swing my leg over the seat standing on the ground. But it doesn't keep her from enjoying the ride.

[Albert]

Sometimes she does get aboard first with side stand down and I standing with a hand on the left hand grip.

 

Actually this is how we've mounted up for over 20 years. The only difference, I stand on the right holding the front brake and she grabs my left hand so I can steady her stepping over. Once she's on, I get on from the right.

[grbrown]

My wife and I are with the side-stand supporters! She is the same size and weight as me and trying to hold a bike vertical while she gets on is a hazard and potential embarrassment we can both live without.

 

We had a touring holiday in June with several other couples and heard a few amusing tales. One lady uses a helmet head-butt if her husband gets too sporty or clumsy. Her pilot noticed a warning light come on while riding along on their GT. It was the hottest day of our trip, mid-90s and she had turned on her heated seat! That's girls for you, so be warned....