Linked Brakes

[SKYGZR]

Ok, posted this in the "K" section also. Main question is, what year(s) did BMW preform this stupidity? Has it ended? when did it end? What models were afflicted?

 

Reason? Should I ever wish to search for a "newer" ride, what years to avoid like the H1N1 vacination???

[duketr4]

I know 02 - 04 RT's have the linked brake.

[smiller]

Are you talking about linked brakes (where front and rear are activated by one brake) or the servo brake system ('power brakes')? These are two different things.

 

If you do mean linked brakes these have been present since the 1150 was introduced I believe. However it should be noted that the latest iteration on the recent K and R bikes (which BMW calls their 'intergral' system) is quite advanced and does away with many of the traditional complaints regarding linked systems, in particular the inability to apply rear brake alone when desired.

[Haynes]

Like Duke said, all the R1150RT bikes had fully integral ABS brakes.

I love 'em but it's all a matter of preference. What type of riding do you do that would want you to avoid the models with fully integrated braking?

[NonComp]

You can find linked brakes even ABS on scooters like the Honda Silverwing. ABS and power control and now making inroads in the racing circuit. I don't think that they are going away.

[skinny_tom (aka boney)]

Ok, posted this in the "K" section also. Main question is, what year(s) did BMW preform this stupidity? Has it ended? when did it end? What models were afflicted?

 

Reason? Should I ever wish to search for a "newer" ride, what years to avoid like the H1N1 vacination???

 

Don't know when it started.

It hasn't ended and isn't going to.

Most models are effected.

Keep riding your old bikes.

[nrp]

I have a 2005 K1200 LT. Questions to brake experts:

 

1) Are the front and rear brakes always linked in the same ratio from the handle mounted brake lever, as from the foot mounted pedal? (i. e. is there a way to apply rear brakes only for low speed maneuvering)

 

2) Is the antilock feature of the front and rear wheel completely independent? or are the front and rear brake caliper pressures modulated simultaneously by the ABS?

 

THX

[T__]

nrp, I can’t answer number (1) on the KLT.. I can say (If) the LT is like all the other early fully linked BMW I-ABS systems there is some low pressure apply bias toward the applying end.. ie, light rear pedal apply you get more rear brake. As the apply pressures go up the bias goes away & you get full adaptable learnable front rear braking..

 

On the number 2 question the answer is not straight forward.. The front & rear are interconnected but separate.. If a rear wheel locks up the ABS only releases the rear brake.. If the front brake locks up the system only releases the front brake.. This is true up to the point of the ABS system seeing the independent lock up as only a wheel slip.. If the ABS sees a rear wheel lock up in such a way as it thinks the rear wheel is lifting off the road it will then release some front brake to prevent rear wheel lift.. This can give the motorcycle a startling jump forward like the brakes just quit working..

 

Twisty

 

[effexer1]

I really like them. Linked, powered, antilock. Works for me!

[SKYGZR]

What type of riding do you do that would want you to avoid the models with fully integrated braking?

 

Ugh..like normal riding...want front Brakes, use the lever. want rear brake, foot pressure on the pedal. Using the lever and having the rear actuate seems like baby food. Using the rear pedal, and having the the front actuate seems like baby puke.

 

Sometimes (most always) the nose brakes are only what's needed, sometimes, may have to trail the rear a bit to get the suspension to settle down. Linked systems do not allow such refinement. The brakes are in control, not the rider.

 

If this linked type of system (or the rider) ever fails, then seems no brakes at all, and perhaps a ride in an ambulance will be forth coming.

 

I like the non-linked ABS on the R, plus the suspension upgrades vs. the K early/antiquated setup. What i'm searching for is the model year that has the R's suspension and non-linked ABS, with the true K series (on it's side) 1200? / 1100? engine.

 

The '96 K1100RS has the Paralever rear, yet conventional forks, not Telelever like the '96 R1100RS.

 

See what I'm after now?

[SKYGZR]

Keep riding your old bikes.

 

Looks like that's my only choice

[RPG]

Sometimes (most always) the nose brakes are only what's needed

 

Nose brakes? Does BMW have another new system coming out??

 

rpg

[AndyS]

...... Main question is, what year(s) did BMW preform this stupidity [linked brakes]? Has it ended? when did it end? What models were afflicted?

 

???

 

I personally like the linked brakes for this reason:

To balance the bike through corners you can gently drag the back brake as on a normal bike, but under general braking the rider can hit either brake and (with the aid of ABS) brake with confidence much harder than you may choose to on other bikes.

Now, I am not saying that a skilled rider, or a racer could do a better job, because I know they could and indeed the racer would. But, when conditions are marginal or you are tired, it allows you to take huge liberties.

So I'm reasonably happy with them.

 

Now.....Servos.....there's another thing. I think I would be happy to see those disappear, but leave me the linking (inteligently balanced) and the ABS

 

Andy

[11101110]

The 1150RTPs had a partially intergrated ABS servo assisted brake system. Hand lever you get front and rear with the computer distributing the brake force as it desires. Foot lever you get rear only with ABS of course. I believe the r1200 have done away with the servo assist but are linked like I described above. The Civi 1150 with ABS were like above but applying the foot gave you both front and rear brakes so no patter which lever you applied you got both brakes.

[AndyS]

....The Civi 1150 with ABS were like above but applying the foot gave you both front and rear brakes so no patter which lever you applied you got both brakes.

 

Not on my 1150.

The first part of foot pedal movement only brings the rear brake on - so, excellent for feet up U turns dragging the rear brake. If you put the pedal down harder, then the front brakes chime in.

 

[philbytx]

Andy is correct.

The updated late 2002 MY version of the iABS system does have a better rear brake bias when using ONLY the brake pedal. There is a

"sweet spot" on the pedal that allows for dragging of the rear brake before it brings in the fronts .

 

 

 

 

 

 

[pjw73nh]

Hi, I've read this thread a few times, and hopefully can get some clarification. I've got the same issues with my 02 RT as well. I have had it for 5 years now, and I still am not 100% sure of how the brakes work. Nor am I sure whether I like it or not (the FULL linking, not the ABS). It was mentioned earlier that there is a sweet spot on the rear pedal where it only applies the rear brake (for a limited application of the pressure on the pedal, then brings in the front). I am unclear on whether this was on ALL 2002's or just an early or late run of them. Is there any way to tell which I have? I can't tell from application. Front and rear appear the same to me. Someone also mentioned "learnable", where the braking system learns based on the rider's driving/braking habits. Are either or both of these fact? That is, the sweet spot application of rear only, and the adaptive/learning ability of the system?

 

Another earlier post mentioned the ABS sequence of braking over a bump, where the bike lurches forward, giving you the sensation that you've momentarily lost all braking. The first time this happened to me I needed a change of U-trou. I am still not used to it, but am better prepared for it. Personally I feel this is a design / performance flaw. It is unsafe. If any car had this type of a response, it would probably have a mandatory recall (read: service campaign) from the NHTSA. I do understand the positive affects of ABS braking, but I am not sure pros outweigh the cons in this situation.

 

Let me preface my next statement by saying that I am not a super fast or risk-taking rider. Been riding many types of bikes for many years though. As an example of the lurching issue, 2 weekends ago, I was at the BMW-MOV rally in Vermont. On one of the rides, I was descending a hill on a typical 2 lane New England road. On the lower part of the hill, the road turned to the left slightly. The pavement at the turn was somewhat "washboard-like" for a small stetch in that the roadbed underneath was probably washed out by rain. Not uncommon for the area. I braked slightly as I was leaning left through the turn and the bike responded with a series of "lurches" of the ABS as I tried to corner over the washboard. I was dangerously close to going off the pavement on to the soft dirt shoulder, but came out of the turn OK. Once again, I was in need of an underwear change. I truly feel that if the lurching issue wasn't present on this bike, I wouldn't have had that experience.

 

I look forward to your constructive thoughts and comments.

 

Thanks..

[T__]

Paul, there is some truth is what you have heard or read..

 

The early I-ABS system was a little more aggressive & had a touchier rear brake..

The change in parts came in October 2002.. Now I have no idea if some of the earlier controllers were ever carried into later production to use up existing parts..

 

On the rear/front bias when stopping.. There was really no sweet spot designed into the system but due to controller design the cross apply between front & rear applied the pressure to different parts of the control apply pistons so you initially got a little more from the end your were using (especially at lower apply pressures)..

 

On the learning ability? It really didn’t learn the riders braking habits (that would be a very smart system).. It more learned the weight on the tires & brake traction bias so as the rear lifted under heavy braking the system would automatically back off on the rear brake.. It could also learn rear braking limits so if you had a passenger on the back it would use more rear braking as the rear tire had more traction..

 

As for the bike jumping forward under heavy braking,, that was a design in the system to keep the rear wheel from lifting & the rider losing control during heavy braking.. It wasn’t a smooth system but did keep the rear tire on the ground.. Later systems were better at determining actual wheel lift vs just a jump across a tar strip or sharp edged pavement crack..

 

Twisty

 

[SKYGZR]

A big to nldaniel in the K wrenching forum for pointing the correct way. The "original/on the side" K's, with paralever/telelever suspension w/ABSII, were produced from '97-'00.

 

For some reason, BMW elected to put the telelever suspension on the nose (front) wheel on the '96 R's, not on the '96 K's, yet put the paralever suspension on the tail (rear) of each model in '96.

 

So, now i'm kinda on the hunt, and know what years to search for that have "apply the front/nose brakes only, get only those. Apply the rear/tail brakes only, get only those."

 

It might be "old school", yet IMHO this is how a motorcycle's brakes should function.

[Osm3um]

So on my 2004 1150rt when I hit either break their is a constant noise, kind of like a power steering unit that is going bad.

 

My guess is that is normal as people refer to them as wizzy brakes (or something like that).

 

I have otten pretty good at ignoring them, but am curious if it is "bad" to have the brakes on for an extended period? Say your stuck on a hill in a bad traffic jam so must hold the brakes for a long time.

 

Thanks,

Bob

[Jeepster]

Ayup, them's the whizzy brakes you're hearing.

What you are actually hearing is a servo motor pumping brake fluid to maintain pressure to the ABS unit/brakes.

If you can ignore them you are a prime candidate to own that system.

As far as it being bad to use the brakes as a holder on a hill, the failure rate of these units seems to be very low. just be sure to get the annual or bi-annual flushes done or learn to do them yourself.

[Skywagon]

I have a 2005 1150RT with linked and whizzy ABS brakes. I love them. One of my favorite things about the bike.

[philbytx]

My 2000 R1100R has ABSII (one brake, one wheel!) and my 2003 R1150RT has the later version i-ABS (1 brake, 2 wheels).

I like 'em both and don't have a problem jumping from bike to bike.

 

The reason being: I use the traditional braking method of using the hand and foot brake in concert

 

[pjw73nh]

Twisty, Tnx for the clarification. Much appreciated.

[RPG]

Stupidity? Note sure I would call them stupid. Maybe a bit of 'too much technology too soon', but they do work very, very well. Even saved my life at least twice. Not many people get to walk away from a collision with a 10 point Buck.

 

I'm guessing you're not in Valentino Rossi or Mat Mladin's league so for the rest of us, a bit of awesome braking technology adds some peace of mind. Maintenance is simple if a bit time consuming, but nothing a shade tree mechanic can't figger out.

 

Like any forum you mainly hear the horror stories. I would ride a bike with them and decide for yourself.

 

My '04 RT has a rear pedal/rear brake bias, front lever/front brake bias and I'm pretty pleased. 40k, no issues and only on 2nd set of pads.

 

RPG

[smiller]

Again, is the OP (and everyone else) referring to linked (front and rear brakes controlled by one lever) or whizzy (power) brakes? These are separate things. If you want to avoid the whizzy brakes you can simply skip the 2002-2006 model years. But linked brakes have been present in one form or another from 2002 to the current models so if you really must avoid them then you are going to have to stay with the 1100.

 

But on the latest bikes the BMW integral linked system allows independent use of the rear brake so that's not an issue. That leaves only the linkage between the front lever and rear brake as a potential concern. Under what circumstances would you want to apply the front and not the rear? The only concern with applying the rear in combination with the front might be in locking the rear, but with ABS that won't happen. So... what is the specific concern with the current linked brake system? Why do you want to avoid it so badly?

[scaudy]

Ayup, them's the whizzy brakes you're hearing.

What you are actually hearing is a servo motor pumping brake fluid to maintain pressure to the ABS unit/brakes.

If you can ignore them you are a prime candidate to own that system.

As far as it being bad to use the brakes as a holder on a hill, the failure rate of these units seems to be very low. just be sure to get the annual or bi-annual flushes done or learn to do them yourself.

 

 

My pump failed on my 02 and I cam tell you that a new pump is not cheap and used ones can be hard to find.

 

I happen to like the system though.

[Jeepster]

My pump failed on my 02 and I cam tell you that a new pump is not cheap and used ones can be hard to find.

 

I happen to like the system though.

Well, You're the second person that has had a servo failure, that I have first hand knowledge of.

The first being a person I met at the dealership. Who stated that he did not know the system was supposed to be flushed periodically.

I have heard of a couple of other failures on the internet but these could be nothing more than rumor.

Sorry you had the failure, but I still think it is a pretty good system. And I happen to like the system also.

 

[scaudy]

Mine failed at around 40K and had always been serviced by a shop (non BMW). Not sure the brake system was always serviced according to spec (or if at all) each time but know it was at least once because I took it in specifically for that to a BMW dealer. I have been doing my own service now and it is part of the schedule for me. Don't want to do that over again.