Failure of some sort

[thepr1nter]

Tonight I was driving (my 2004 1150RT) down the road (about 65 or 70 mph) on the way home and pow, I hear what sounds like a big spring breaking and then some grinding. I pull in the clutch and the noise goes away, let it out and there's some noise but no acceleration.(clutch is not engaging) The bike is running fine, but I'm not going anywhere, just coasting. So as the bike slows down, I down shift. 2 -5 have no sound or engagement at all as I coast to a stop on the shoulder. Bike is still running fine, but doesn't go anywhere when I let out the clutch, just a little grinding but, more like it wants to engage but it can't catch. Spent the next 2 hours getting a tow in Atlanta Traffic. Oh joy!

 

Anyone want to surmise what I'm in for?

 

Thanks for your input.

 

Scott

 

[Jerry Duke]

Hopefully it's the driveshaft.

[Jeepster]

U-joint would be easy to check. Pull the drive shaft boot back and spin wheel.

Check final drive play on wheel at 12/6 and 3/9 position.

Spline failure? Maybe pull starter and check.

What's the mileage on the bike??

Sorry, I hope it's fixed soon and cheaply.

[thepr1nter]

Mileage is just over 50,000

[breyfogle]

...Anyone want to surmise what I'm in for?

Thanks for your input.....

 

Clutch hub and/or input shaft spline failure.

[Mark K]

I just did the driveshaft. It doesn't sound like that. At least it didn't in my case.

 

Check behind the rubber boot ahead of the final drive for foreign material -- you'll know it if/when you see it. If nothing, drain the gearbox oil and check it for looks, smell, chunks on the drain plug, etc. Again -- you'll know it if/when you see it. If nothing there, than you most likely have a spline issue (my guess).

[vizhip]

Not that I know anything about bikes, but I would be looking at the gears since using the clutch seems to cause the noise to go away, but no impact on the momentum when the engine should be engaged...

 

Regards -

-Bob

[SKYGZR]

Now that you have it in your garage, before diving into it, get the rear wheel off the ground. Then "shift" through the gears with your left hand, while trying to rotate the rear wheel forward with your right. No need to use the clutch to activate the tranny. You may have to slightly move the rear wheel back and forth to engage the gearing.

 

If it "locks" in any gear, then you have eliminated the transmission as the culprit. If the rear wheel turns, no matter what gear you've selected, then perhaps spline or drive shaft U joint.

 

If it "locks" in any gear, and not in any others, then it's the tranny.

 

Gonna have to disassemble no matter what.

 

I feel your pain...

[thepr1nter]

Well . . . dug into it yesterday, dug further into it today and I finally found the problem . . . deep in the engine. There's metal shavings all over the clutch and clutch housing. The spline on the gear box looks pretty rough and the clutch piece that it fits into is almost smooth.

 

While I'm here, I plan on replacing all the clutch parts and the spline pressed (I assume it's pressed) onto the gearbox shaft.

 

Anything else I should replace or maintain since I've come this far? Might as well replace anything else to prevent having to do this again anytime soon.

 

Thanks for all your ideas.

 

Scott

 

[T__]

Scott, unfortunately that spline on the trans input shaft is not pressed on,, it is part of the trans input shaft so the trans has to come completely apart to replace it (the input shaft)..

 

While you are in there you might check the trans/engine alignment as far as lateral or vertical displacement & center line divergence..

 

There is some history of that spline wear being caused by trans to engine misalignment..

 

 

Twisty

 

[thepr1nter]

Oh joy. How many special tools will I need to replace that shaft? Maybe I should have BMW do it? Or maybe it's tough enough to leave it be? I just wouldn't feel good about putting it back together the way it is.

 

I've heard that about the alignment. How is some thing like that checked and corrected? I didn't see anything about that in the manual.

 

Thanks.

[Mark K]

The spline on the gear box looks pretty rough and the clutch piece that it fits into is almost smooth.

 

 

I'm sorry to hear that. That's an expensive failure to have.

[T__]

thepr1nter, well if you go by the manual you will need some special gauging fixtures etc.. If you are familiar with this type of work (trans shaft end play setting) you can get by at home using home made gauging or a long height gauge..

 

There is some home setting info in the archives here.. Look for: spline or “trans inputs shaft” or “stripped splines” or “input shaft” or “trans alignment” etc.. Use the quotes on any more than on word or use something like-- trans +splines

 

There have also been a few write up’s on using the empty front case & a dial indicator to sweep the front trans bearing bore from a crankshaft mounted dial indicator (that should allow vertical/lateral alignment checks)..

I haven’t ever seen a write on this (probably is I just haven’t read it) is to sweep the engine block rear trans mounting surface from a crankshaft mounted dial indicator then sweep the trans front face from a dial indicator mounted on the trans input shaft.. (that should show angular mis-alignment)

 

Some say to just automatically replace the trans front housing with a new one.. (probably not a bad idea if you don’t check the alignment thoroughly)

 

You didn’t say how many miles on your 1150 but my guess is; if you just install a new clutch disk & new input shaft it will go about as long as it did the first time.. So if you have 80,000 miles on it you should go a long ways by just installing new parts--- on the other hand if your bike only has 22,000 miles on it (a common 1150 failure range) then you might have another spline issue at about that mileage again..

 

If your bike is low mileage & dealer serviced maybe see if your local BMW dealer will offer some good will warranty help (it won’t be the entire amount for sure & maybe no help at all).. You are not the first one this has happened to,, heck your are not even in the first 50..

 

 

Twisty

 

[Roger P]

Hi. this weekend I had a clutch failure on my R1150RT! It was shifting fine and then all of a sudden I thought I missed a gear. Clutch makes a loud racket when I pull the clutch in. With the clutch not pulled in, it still makes a racket but not so bad. Although the bike is 7 years old, it had only 24k miles on it! Twisty 1, are you saying that if I replace all the bad parts, this most likley will happen again in another 24k miles? If there is a good chance of that, I'll just find the tallest bridge and push it over! Should have kept my girly, slow, but dead realiable little brick-K75!

[T__]

Roger, at 24K you are in the ball park for early failure due to alignment issues..

 

I’m not saying for sure the problem will come back in another 22K-24K,, but there is a good chance it will based on other riders experiences with similar spline failures in that mileage range..

 

Let me just say this: If it were my bike I would go over & check EVERY trans to engine alignment scenario I could think of.. I’m betting you will find something (or things) that are not quite right as far as trans to engine alignment goes..

 

If you don’t want to yourself (or can’t find someone that will) then at least replace the front trans housing & ALL the clutch drive parts..

 

Any way you look at it you are looking at big money,, very expensive to have done at a dealer or repair shop..

 

Twisty

 

[Roger P]

Thanks, that is what I was afraid of.

[thepr1nter]

I just talked with the BMW dealer and they feel that the failure is not so much an alignment issue as it is a lubrication issue. If the splines get dry, they stick, causing some shifting issues and premature failure. I keep my motorcycle in the garage at home but he indicated that if you leave the motorcycle outside it will happen faster. (which I do everyday at work) I had just over 50,000 miles on my bike when this happened.

 

Roger, you only had 24K miles but it's had 7 years to dry out. Seems reasonable to me since the engine and transmission are pinned together and there is no adjustment.

 

Anyway, I'm going to have them replace the shaft in the transmission to the tune of $300-$400 labor plus parts. The shaft alone is $300+ and I think I'll have all the seals replaced while we're there. Of course, then I have the expense of all the clutch parts too. Goodness, I'll have to take out a loan to pay for the repair and I pulled the motorcycle apart myself.

 

I will seriously consider selling this bike when this repair is finished. This is the second major failure (clutch slave cylinder) in the last 5-10K miles which to me seems excessive. Can't afford these expensive repairs.

[Boffin]

Your dealer is just plain wrong. The splines are designed to run dry, apart from molly paste which is absorbed into the surface of the metal. Leaving the bike outside makes no difference whatsoever. There have been several instances of these splines failing despite palliative lubrication, with some multiple failures on the same bike at the same intervals. The only way to prevent a recurrence is to remove the misalignment, either by a new tranny front case (pot-luck approach) or by adjusting the tranny/engine alignment dowels.

[NonComp]

You need to be aware that you may be selling a bike with a manufacturing defect to the next owner, who may suffer the same failure at about the same mileage. Ethically, you may wish to consider how you present the bike and the asking price if you sell it without investigating for an misalignment issue.

 

BMW often seems to refuse to acknowledge known manufacturing defects -- for obvious reasons.

[AndyS]

You need to be aware that you may be selling a bike with a manufacturing defect to the next owner,.

 

Why? BMW didn't worry about it even after a mid life update from 1100 to 1150, and you bought one.

Andy

[T__]

thepr1nter, keep in mind most dealers don’t really care about a future re-occurrence of the problem down the road.. They just want your money now..

 

Look at the spline wear on your shaft & clutch disk.. If it is evenly worn all the way across the splines then probably not an alignment problem.. If the splines are worn at a taper or worn more in one place than another then suspect an alignment problem.. (about all I have seen wear at a taper)

 

AT 50,000 miles it doesn’t sound like a blatant alignment problem so with JUST new parts you can probably go another 30,000-50,000 miles (before another walk home)..

 

I guess if it were me I would question the integrity of the work by a dealer that doesn’t even acknowledge an alignment issue could be the cause of your problem.. My guess is they haven’t ever even tried to measure the alignment on a BMW & could care less about future failures..

 

Don’t just take our word on this (or your dealers word for that mater).. Do some research on BMW spline failures (there is LOTS to read on the subject on this site & about every other BMW web site)..

 

 

Twisty

 

 

[NonComp]

You need to be aware that you may be selling a bike with a manufacturing defect to the next owner,.

 

Why? BMW didn't worry about it even after a mid life update from 1100 to 1150, and you bought one.

Andy

I did buy one. And then I found out that my bike's gearbox had a different design defect. It is an M94 gearbox that has its own issues. I just spent $1000 on having the gears recut to upgrade it to M97 specifications. The PO traded the bike on a new one. But I'm quite sure he would have known that it was failing. So, I have some experience with these kinds of issues too.

 

The difference is that you may now suspect that your bike has an issue. Consequently, you are thinking about selling it. The ethics are up to you.

[AndyS]

You need to be aware that you may be selling a bike with a manufacturing defect to the next owner,.

 

quote]

 

Surely you would agree that BMW also knows it is selling a bike with a potential defect, so where does that put us on the ethical front?

Andy

[NonComp]

Surely you would agree that BMW also knows it is selling a bike with a potential defect, so where does that put us on the ethical front?

Andy

There is a difference between a potential defect and knowing (or suspecting) that a particular bike HAS a defect. It's probably fair to say that the vast majority of these bikes don't have an alignment problem. But chances are good that this one does. At least it is worth investigating. Wilfull blindness is always an option, though.

[thepr1nter]

GlenT,

 

I did not say the bike has a defect, the dealer merely indicated that it was a maintenance issue. If I were going to just "dump" the bike I wouldn't go through the trouble of replacing seals and shafts. I'd merely replace the clutch parts and button it up.

 

However, I will put the bike into what I would consider perfect mechanical condition, ride it sparingly (since I don't want to wear the tires excessively) and put the bike up for sale.

 

I can not afford these repair costs in the name of BMW and I feel your pain that you bought a bike that had some issues. But come on, there is no way to know for sure that anyone knew there was an issue with your bike. I just think these bikes, in general, require expensive repairs and exhaustive maintenance to keep them on the road.

 

As far as the alignment issue, the bike does not fall in the 20 to 25K range that Twisty originally started with. There is no adjustment for the alignment and "adjusting" the pins in some way just doesn't sound reasonable, and I've heard no one explain a step by step procedure to do so. I did start reading the posts as Twisty suggested however so far, no one talks about how they corrected this elusive alignment issue.

 

Folks, I'm not a motorcycle mechanic, but do you have to be a rocket scientist to know that vinegar and baking soda will not launch the space shuttle?

 

Scott

 

[T__]

Scott, depending on the alignment abnormality there are a few ways to correct an engine to trans misalignment issue..

 

If just a lateral or vertical misalignment the trans front cover locating pin holes can simply be drilled oversize then eccentric bushings made to give the correct trans offset.. First you have to figure out how far to move it,, then you can correctly calculate the correct off-set..

 

If the mis-alignment is a divergence from center line then the trans front cover mating surface will have to be machined to correct the mis-alignment..

 

If you think a little lick-em-pucky (grease) will solve your problem have at it.. How come you don’t have to grease the 1100’s,, or the 1200’s,, just the 1150’s & then only some not all..

 

Twisty

 

[T__]

Scott, more reading over on Adventure Rider.. Mostly GS stuff but basically same engine & trans as the RT..

 

Nice picture of a 50,000 mile clutch spline,, rusty as an old nail but no wear on the splines.. Seems the lubrication suggested by the dealer only applies to some..

 

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207014&page=17&highlight=%22trans+alignment%22

 

 

Twisty

 

[94aero]

Your dealer is just plain wrong. The splines are designed to run dry, apart from molly paste which is absorbed into the surface of the metal. Leaving the bike outside makes no difference whatsoever. There have been several instances of these splines failing despite palliative lubrication, with some multiple failures on the same bike at the same intervals. The only way to prevent a recurrence is to remove the misalignment, either by a new tranny front case (pot-luck approach) or by adjusting the tranny/engine alignment dowels.

 

He is right! I had not lubed my splines for 75,000 miles when I repaired a slipping clutch all looked great. If the unit is putting a force on the spines other than rotational then they wear out.

[NonComp]

Well, thepr1nter, I feel your pain too. I know you aren't saying the bike has a defect, but that seems to be the consensus here. I can't disagree with you that these bikes can have issues. And they can be bloody expensive if you don't do your own work. And even if you do. That's why I also own a Honda

 

My bike showed early symptoms such as hopping out of 2nd gear. Like you, I didn't know what I was getting into when I bought it. And I was in denial for a while. But I've invested so much time and affection into this bike, that it would be hard to let it go now. That's why I'm happy that my wife has taken to it (she got her license last year).

 

One thing's for sure, my Roadster does have a lot more personality then my ST1300. That can be both a good and a bad thing.

 

I guess all I'm saying is, leave something in it for the next guy.

[270]

Hi. this weekend I had a clutch failure on my R1150RT! It was shifting fine and then all of a sudden I thought I missed a gear. Clutch makes a loud racket when I pull the clutch in. With the clutch not pulled in, it still makes a racket but not so bad. Although the bike is 7 years old, it had only 24k miles on it! Twisty 1, are you saying that if I replace all the bad parts, this most likley will happen again in another 24k miles? If there is a good chance of that, I'll just find the tallest bridge and push it over! Should have kept my girly, slow, but dead realiable little brick-K75!

 

Roger...I'm sorry this happened to you...but let me guess; a 2002 model RT?

[270]

GlenT,

 

I did not say the bike has a defect, the dealer merely indicated that it was a maintenance issue. If I were going to just "dump" the bike I wouldn't go through the trouble of replacing seals and shafts. I'd merely replace the clutch parts and button it up.

 

However, I will put the bike into what I would consider perfect mechanical condition, ride it sparingly (since I don't want to wear the tires excessively) and put the bike up for sale.

 

I can not afford these repair costs in the name of BMW and I feel your pain that you bought a bike that had some issues. But come on, there is no way to know for sure that anyone knew there was an issue with your bike. I just think these bikes, in general, require expensive repairs and exhaustive maintenance to keep them on the road.

 

As far as the alignment issue, the bike does not fall in the 20 to 25K range that Twisty originally started with. There is no adjustment for the alignment and "adjusting" the pins in some way just doesn't sound reasonable, and I've heard no one explain a step by step procedure to do so. I did start reading the posts as Twisty suggested however so far, no one talks about how they corrected this elusive alignment issue.

 

Folks, I'm not a motorcycle mechanic, but do you have to be a rocket scientist to know that vinegar and baking soda will not launch the space shuttle?

 

Scott

 

There is some evidence that many 1150's have an alignment issue to some degree. The majority seem to occur around that 25-30K range, but they certainly can occur later to do an alignment that is still off but closer to spec. I did a clutch/lube at about 50k and found wear in the middle of the splines indicating SOME misalignment. It will fail, but who know's when? I've kept the original clutch disk and have shown it to a couple of machinist. I've talked a guy into diving into it to try to determine where it's out of spec, but I'm not sure when we're going to do that. It's aggravating as all get out, but it is what it is...

[ragtoplvr]

The thing to do is goto the NHSTA web site here is link.

 

http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/index.cfm

 

have your VIN number handy and post the defect. premature spline wear, sudden failure, manufacturing defect sudden loss of forward motion no warning, hazards to pull over.

 

If enough complain, eventually BMW will either have to buy off some official or recall. Either way it will cost them. It seems to be the only way to get their attention.

 

Rod

[270]

The thing to do is goto the NHSTA web site here is link.

 

http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/index.cfm

 

have your VIN number handy and post the defect. premature spline wear, sudden failure, manufacturing defect sudden loss of forward motion no warning, hazards to pull over.

 

If enough complain, eventually BMW will either have to buy off some official or recall. Either way it will cost them. It seems to be the only way to get their attention.

 

Rod

 

It's been done, believe me...somehow, BMW seems to be immune to being taken to task for this and other failures that we are all aware of, but they say "don't happen". I've been exposed to couple of brands who have done VERY expensive recalls YEARS (and years) after warranty expiration to fix a problem. BMW? Not so much. Have loved the bike the years I've owned it. Frankly, besides a nagging issue, it's been essentially trouble free. I can't say though that I've enjoyed my ownership experience. I've spent too much time being concerned about whether or not I'd experience a trip ending failure. That's my issue, not BMW's...I take responsibility for it. Still....

[thepr1nter]

So I visited the dealer to deliver the gear box and discussed the issue.

 

Their position is that BMW did not properly lube the spines at the factory and after the parts heat up, they warp and begin to wobble causing the sticking shifter and ultimately a spline failure. They will not contact BMW on my behalf concerning any notion that there is some miss-alignment involved. They are aware of only one issue of that sort on the 1100 GS where the gear box was machined incorrectly causing a miss-alignment. Interestingly they say they see this sort of wear all the time. ( see pic posted below, looks a lot like the pic posted in the thread Twisty posted)

 

They gave me the number of BMW and I plan on calling them (for what reason I’m not really sure) and I am in the midst of reading the information Twisty posted. So far it seems that there’s 4 camps. The miss-alignment camp, the bad metals used camp, the insufficient lube camp and the shaft is too short camp. This last one is interesting, but I haven’t gotten to the part where he says that it did or did not fail again.

 

My inclination is to take to a machine shop and have them “check it out” if a machine shop can do that sort of thing. But I’m also going to look at the Honda NT700V, the Honda ST1300 and the Yamaha FJR1300.

 

www.prism.gatech.edu/~sp40/Spline2.jpg

 

 

 

Edit: to make the picture a copy & paste link as it was too large to include with thread..

 

[T__]

thepr1nter, the time to have a machine shop check it is BEFORE the dealer rebuilds it.. The machine shop will need the transmission front housing to check the alignment..

 

I guess I would suspect the dealer you are working with as being a bit naïve to properly handle your trans spline wear issue..

 

I guess I personally have NO trust in anyone that says it isn’t an alignment issue but has never checked one be sure..

 

Twisty

 

[AndyS]

...BMW did not properly lube the spines at the factory and after the parts heat up, they warp and begin to wobble causing the sticking shifter and ultimately a spline failure.... www.prism.gatech.edu/~sp40/Spline2.jpg

 

 

Utter tosh.

If you look at your picture, a 'wobble' would cause the end of the shaft to show wear (not 20mm inwards where your wear has happened).

I suggest you get your dealer to clock the shaft (with a dial gauge) at it's tip, at the max wear point and just inwards of the max wear point (at the point where the splines are perfect). This will show them [and you] how much 'wobble' you've got.

Then I would remove the bike and bits from them and get it to a good engineering shop to sort out the real problem

Andy.

[Mark K]

I wish you luck in your hope to find someone who will take responsibility. In all 4 of your possible scenarios, it sounds like the manufacturer's responsibility, but they continue to stonewall the issue.

 

 

Their position is that BMW did not properly lube the spines at the factory and after the parts heat up, they warp and begin to wobble causing the sticking shifter and ultimately a spline failure.

 

I think a wobble would cause uneven wear, but all the photos I've seen show even wear all around the shaft.

 

 

So far it seems that there’s 4 camps. The miss-alignment camp, the bad metals used camp, the insufficient lube camp and the shaft is too short camp.

 

There are too many stories out there (including mine) where the gearbox is removed only to find dry, rusty splines that still look pristine at very high miles. This, along with the fact that you either 'have it or you don't' (meaning spline issues) lends credence to the misalignment camp. The others just don't hold water IMO, as they also cannot explain repeated failures on the same machine.

 

 

[270]

Some thoughts on the four camps;

 

On lubrication; This type of clutch/input shaft arrangement is used in many types of industrial applications. Generally, lubrication is not a concern. Movement of the clutch along the input shaft is minimal.

 

On the shaft being too short; I do some business consulting work with an aircraft maintenance outfit and posed the theory to the lead tech. His comment was that the shaft is not supposed to extend all the way through and would have no effect on wear. He showed me a similar application on a helicopter and it appeared that the input shaft and a type of gear (similar to a clutch?) did not extend all the way through.

 

 

On bad metal; Maybe, but pre-failure wear shows an uneveness that suggests that metal may not have anything to do with it. Maybe in combination with misalignment. I have see some folks test a failed shaft for hardness that revealed the failed shaft was in an acceptable range on the Rockwell scale.

 

The misalignment issue seems to hold the most promise. The aircraft tech that looked at my clutch after ~50K immediately stated that it appeared that it rode on a mis-aligned shaft. I did not tell him that misalignment was a theory before he saw it.

 

What I think would be facinating, and maybe somebody has done this in the year+ I've been away from this list; take a front cover to a machinist and determine if it is square. Shouldn't be tough...would definately be interesting.

 

[NonComp]

Take a ride on an ST1300. You'll love it. I do.

 

I should mention that the pres. of our local BMW club (Bee Cee Beemers) had an input shaft failure on his ll50RT at about the same mileage as yours. It was covered under warranty, but the dealer in Vancouver blamed it on the fact that he pulls a trailer and suggested that do so could void his extended warranty. He is a high mileage rider and it will be interesting to see if it fails again before he trades it. He's about 25K miles into it since the rebuild.

[270]

Take a ride on an ST1300. You'll love it. I do.

 

+1

[AndyS]

Take a ride on an ST1300. You'll love it. I do.

 

.

 

Yes,but it's ugly and pointy (only in my opinion of course)... just like the R1200RT. I like nice flowing curves ...not only wrt bikes!! (but in this case, the R1100RT & R1150RT).

Andy ;-}

[NonComp]

OK, then find an ST1100 with ABS and Traction Control (they dropped the traction control feature when the ST13 was introduced). There's lots of them out there too. Same great engine. Different feel. The ST11 has more straight line stability. The ST13 is shorter, quicker to turn and more sporting.

 

Rumours abound that the ST13 may be replaced by a new V4 variant next year, so prices on the ST13 inventory are starting to come down.

[AndyS]

OK, then find an ST1100...

 

Nope, I love the RT.

Andy

[NonComp]

Love is a many splendored thing.