fatal crash in descending sharp turn

[NoHeat]

I'll post excerpts of a news account in case it's helpful as a learning experience for somebody. (I've X'd out the names.)

 

A group of nine motorcycles were traveling west into Gays Mills when they met a Dodge van traveling east on a steep grade and a sharp curve.

...

Several of the motorcycles had rounded the curve. X came into the curve, saw the van and locked up the brakes. The motorcycle overturned and the driver was ejected from the motorcycle.

Y locked up the brakes and overturned and crashed into the van. Y was ejected from the motorcycle.

The third motorcycle drive by Z crashed into the Y motorcycle and then struck the van. Z was also ejected.

X was pronounced dead at the scene by coroner ... All drivers of the three motorcycle were wearing helmets.

Speed was a factor in the crash, but alcohol was not.

 

Here's the map. Motorcycles (red) were descending in what looks like a sharp turn, minivan (blue) was apparently coming in the opposite direction. It's heavily wooded there, and leaves are probably still on the trees this time of year, so maybe nobody could see what was around the corner.

[NoHeat]

view of the foliage there:

 

[RedHot]

Very sorry to hear this!!!

 

Please educate me a little. What was the problem? That they were going too fast? Slammed on the brakes? Taking the turn too wide?

 

I KNOW no one was there, but hypothetically. What went wrong? I LOVE twisties and I'm trying my best to get better at them, but blind corners are definitely something that is a little nerve racking. EVEN when I'm in my own lane, meeting a vehicle in on coming traffic, does startle me. I'm not sure why, but it does.

 

So tell me, what SHOULD have happened?

[Quinn]

The most obvious possibilities are following too close for the speed and not riding their own ride. If several bikes had already made it through the curve, I'm assuming that the van had probably slowed down and was staying in his lane looking out for the rest that followed.

 

You see it a lot on twisty roads. A line of crotch rockets zipping by on each others a$$, sounding like a train of mosquitos on steroids. No real buffer for what's around the bend, just try to emulate the line and speed of the bike in front of you.

 

That's my number one rule when riding with others---don't run into them. You can fall off, run off the road, crash into buildings, whatever; just don't hit the guy in front of you. It's too stupid and too easily avoided to do. You really, really don't want to spend the rest of your life explaining that's why you have that limp or those scars.

 

 

[Francois_Dumas]

It is not a switchback, just a curve, so they probably just went too fast AND too close on each other.

Only in panic would you lock up the brakes (or by lack of riding skills... and probably both).... Out-of-control situations (because of speed or lack of technique) will cause such panic.

 

Always sad when people get hurt or worse.......

[dhanson]

For myself and what I tell my wife, you are responsible for your own bike, your own clearing. You can only go as fast in a curve as you can see and be able to stop/avoid trouble that pops up.

 

I always try to have enough room to avoid the bike in front of me if it gets in trouble or slams on the brakes.

 

Spoils lots of curves, but hey, this is no track, danger is everywhere on the street!

[CoarsegoldKid]

There is no indication of road condition. There could be dirt, sand, suicidal squirrels whatever on the road that could have caused panic to the first bike. He could have taken an early apex which caused him to head directly into the direction of the van, panic brake and fall. Then the others are too close, too fast following the same line. Who knows? It's sad. I'm sorry to hear this.

 

BMWgirl always late apex to see as much of the road as possible, look where you want to go, ride at a fun speed but not a racing speed and always ride your own ride.

[NoHeat]

It is not a switchback, just a curve, so they probably just went too fast AND too close on each other.

Only in panic would you lock up the brakes (or by lack of riding skills... and probably both)....

 

In the MSF courses they teach that accidents are usually the result of a chain of things that went wrong, not just one thing.

 

Speed and close following distance seem to be definitely part of the chain here. Maybe group behavior as well. But I think there's more: the sudden change in terrain.

 

The ride up to this point was curvy and hilly, but nothing like this one sharp curve on a very steep slope, so it would be easy to become conditioned to ride at the speed that had been working okay on the same road, unprepared for something drastically different that is coming up.

 

As for locking up the brakes, I think it's easier for that to happen on a steep downgrade.

 

The rider was from my hometown. I didn't know him, but I know he had a young family.

[JohnnyJ]

I've been riding a whole lot of years and the descending sharp turn still bothers me. It's easy to go wide if you're not careful.

 

Any suggestions on how to perfect them? Are they handled any differently than the ascending sharp turn?

 

 

JohnnyJ

[russell_bynum]

I've been riding a whole lot of years and the descending sharp turn still bothers me. It's easy to go wide if you're not careful.

 

Any suggestions on how to perfect them? Are they handled any differently than the ascending sharp turn?

 

 

JohnnyJ

 

Slow entry. Late Apex.

 

How slow? Slow enough that you could stop within the sight distance that you've got.

 

How late? Stay wide until you can see the exit of the turn. Then flick it in and get on the gas.

 

The main difference with ascending vs descending is that gravity is not helping you slow down when you're going downhill, so you have to allow more braking distance, etc.

[PhillyFlash]

Pretty much what Russell said. From the limited description, it sounds like rider error. If the van came into their lane, there was sand or gravel in the road, the road was wet, there was a road obstacle or hazzard, etc., then who knows. But based on what you reported, if you're coming into a blind curve, slow down enough to take it safely with a margin of error in case there is something unexpected. If it's an unfamiliar blind curve, slow down even more. If it's a blind, downhill, off-camber, decreasing radius curve, slow down to a speed where you feel safe going through it. It's rare that people report getting into trouble by going too slow through a curve.

 

To get better at these difficult curves, practice them. If you find a place that has a curve that gives you trouble, go back and forth through it. I remember several years ago Russell had trouble on one curve between Torrey and Capitol Reef. He would go off by himself and ride back and forth through that curve to figure out how to get it right.

 

[iowabeakster]

Brief intro: I am usually just a lurker on this site, although it is excellent. I ride a R1150R, and there aren't too many R riders on this site. I especially like the Ride Well section.

 

I am sorry to hear this story. I am from Iowa City too, and had not heard of this bad news. I've ridden that road a few times. That corner is just plain dangerous. It sure looks like fun on the map. You want to think that you will be dragging a knee around it, but it just doesn't happen that way. The hill going down (the way the bike riders were travelling) is too steep and the corner is such that you just can't carry much speed at all. The result ends up being that riders make a mid-turn correction, (likey with more brakes) and therefore stand the bike upright and cross the center line. I don't know anything more than the rest of you...but I suspect a rear wheel lock and a high side,at least for person X.

 

All the standard advice is what is needed. Never outrun your sightlines, late apex...etc.

[Mike]

I know this road pretty well, too. It runs through several apple orchards and can be pretty busy this time of year. That particular curve is one I'd describe as a switchback, involving a near-180 degree change of direction, a decreasing radius curve, and a fairly steep descent. My guess would be simply too much speed and, likely, setting up wrong for the curve (early apex). Traveling downhill, it's easy to misjudge the curve, and I've seen many a vehicle end up over the centerline as it tightened up beyond the operator's expectation.

 

We Midwesterners don't see many roads like this, and you inevitably see some very sloppy cornering in these rare severe curves. A sad occurrence.

[motoguy128]

I'd guess the first bike overreacted once he felt he was goign too fast for hte turn. The next 2 bikes were following too clase and didn't have enough room ot stop short of the accident.

 

One challenge in having a hairpin in a road that is otherwise full of sweepers. IS that riders focus too much on following distance, not the time gap. So if a group is traveling at 70mph with a 30; gap between riders, at 35mph, the gap is only 15'...which means you are now almost next to the biek in front of you UNLESS... you brake harder than the bike in front of you...but , that now means you are traveling even slower. SO the next bike brakes even harder, and hte next even harder. It's a domino effect. its' the same reason that you come to a stop miles behind where an actually construction zone is. It's like a wave.

 

Another possiblity is that the bikes were accelration out of the left hand sweeper not realizing there was a hairpin comming up. By the time you get to the 6th bike... he's carrying way too muh speed trying ot close the gap to the rider ahead of him.

 

Again, when riding in a group, the faster you are going, the larger the gap you need to have between you. The gap should at minimum be proportional to your speed.

 

I actually get annoyed when watching racing on a road course when the announcer says "look at the power of the lead bike". In reality, both bikes are accelerating at the same rate, but the gap in increasing because of the time gap remains the same. the second bike may even be gaining due to the draft off the first bike.

[motoguy128]

 

We Midwesterners don't see many roads like this, and you inevitably see some very sloppy cornering in these rare severe curves. A sad occurrence.

 

This is so very, very true. Unless they have attended track days or are lucky enough to "get it", most midwesterners have very poor bike handling skills. With some, it's downright scary because they are even holding up car and semi traffic at speeds that you'd consider casual in your car at speeds BELOW the posted suggested speed.

[270]

Not meaning to resurrect an old thread, but I've read it a couple of times and have some thoughts;

 

As a few have pointed out, there is almost always several causes of a collision, and difficult to point to one major cause without considering the contributing factors. Let me pontificate just a bit on this;

 

1) Riding in groups-when I first starting riding, I gravited towards the BMW clubs and other "mature" riding groups (even though I wasn't, LOL) figuring that I'd learn a lot and have fun. The reality is that the crash percentage was unbelievably high on those rides and (no kidding) on three overnight trips I did with a group three crashes occured. There are now so few people I will ride with, I can count them on one hand. My personal opinion is that group riding is inherently dangerous as you must count on each individual's skill and judgement to ensure a safe trip. A crash ruins everyone's trip, even if you're not personally involved. I simply avoid it as the worst case scenario is outlined in the original post.

 

Negotiating turns/switchbacks-There are several good threads on this on many knowlegable folks offering good advice. Let me say that I have really developed a passion for rider education and training and feel generally that the US is woefully lacking in access to good training overall. There are some GREAT programs out there, some of which are offered by list members here. Read as much as you can, practice often in a safe place, and please, please, please get some good quality training! Most training programs can be bought for the cost of a set of tires or a service on your bike. Sometimes you might even find it for free! You'll have to search for it, but go find it! Even a track day that offers some instruction will advance your understanding of riding and confidence light years.

 

This was a tragic incident, but like most we read about, could have been avoided. Learn from it and if you want to be a statistic, be the statistic that isn't involved in an accident!

 

Ride safe!

[alimar]

... on three overnight trips I did with a group three crashes occurred. ... My personal opinion is that group riding is inherently dangerous as you must count on each individual's skill and judgment to ensure a safe trip.

It depends on the individual. One who can disassociate themselves with the tail end of the bike in front of them and ride their own ride will inherently have a far better chance of coming out of a ride unscathed than one who cannot.

[tobyzusa]

... on three overnight trips I did with a group three crashes occurred. ... My personal opinion is that group riding is inherently dangerous as you must count on each individual's skill and judgment to ensure a safe trip.

It depends on the individual. One who can disassociate themselves with the tail end of the bike in front of them and ride their own ride will inherently have a far better chance of coming out of a ride unscathed than one who cannot.

 

Not necessarily. What about the yahoo behind you?

[John in VA]

Too fast. Too close.

 

So sad, but should be a lesson, especially for group riding, which is inherently more risky than solo riding. Yes, it depends on the maturity of the riders, there's so much temptation for "pack" mentality of everybody trying to match the skill -- or foolhardiness -- of the leader. I don't say that's what happened here, but on the few group rides I've been on, I preferred to be last or the guy behind me is sure to follow too closely for my comfort.