Ethical Business...Oxymoron?

[ThomasJ]

Maybe a strange one here, and I know…wine with my dinner {I have teenagers so I could export wine}, but I have been working professionally now for just over 24 years in the engineering field with another 15+ to go. I have worked for 5 different outfits, all except the 1st were/are mid to large aerospace firms here in California. All, except the first that went bust years ago, have either functioned in an unethical manner and/or treated their staff with great disrespect. My question is this: are their successful businesses that truly behave in an ethical manner and treat their staff with the respect they should? I’m very discouraged with my current employer because of how the owners treat their staff…not the kind of outfit I would recommend to anyone with long-term aspirations though I’m a hiring engineering manager. Hence, I’m now looking (great timing!) but how do you know the good (if there are any) from the bad?

Thanks,

Tom

 

[leikam]

Yes, they're out there. But unless they're Zappos, you're going to have to interview them to find out.

 

http://about.zappos.com/

 

http://2009.sxsw.com/node/1475

[steve.foote]

Tom,

 

Why don't you start your own ethical, respectful engineering firm? You can right the wrongs that you have encountered during your career so others don't have to suffer as you have.

[Woodie]

It sounds like an industry thing. I've heard a similar complaint from an engineer at P&W (our local aerospace company).

 

Are the companies you're referring to unionized?

 

(Thoughts:

- Unions generally come in when management is arbitrary or capricious.

- Unionized labor generally has a more argumentative relationship with management.

Not for/against it, just some personal observations)

[BFish]

please describe the unethical behavior referred to in the post. curious minds want to know.

[Hermes]

please describe the unethical behavior referred to in the post. curious minds want to know.

 

 

Likewise here,

just keep in mind everyone can read your posts here, and until you have secured new employment, caution is the word (actually if they feel your comments are liabilist, they can and likely will, come after you even after you left).

 

jus' saying

[Ken H.]

I believe they do exist, but they have a totally different mindset as to what constitutes “success” than most companies/corporations have today. Wikipedia – 3BL

[David]

What I tell all my clients is this. A properly balanced business is about three things, in this order:

 

1) Money.

 

2) Impacting clients.

 

3) Employees.

 

I make no apology for that order and I actually feel terrific about it. Without making money, a business is a joke and unsustainable. But money alone is vacuous and very uninteresting.

 

Next, the business has to impact it's clients (almost all these clients are in the context of a professional service business). As noted above, money only isn't fun. And if there isn't lasting impact on clients, the reputation for that business will eventually shrivel up and die. On the other hand, there is very little impact without lots of money. Nobody listens to advice from people who aren't any good at applying it to their own business. So whether someone needs all the money they charge or not, charging a lot of money makes it more likely that the clients will listen, and you'll have impact.

 

Third is an emphasis on employees, but there are two approaches. The bad one is to hire employees to help the key people make money. Not a good plan. It's better for management to focus nearly all their energies on providing a healthy and ethical environment. If that's their focus, the employees will do whatever is necessary to make the business profitable and effective. If you as an owner take care of the employee, the employee will take care of the client. That's much more scalable.

 

Besides, if anyone wants to change the world, lower your expectations of how much real impact you'll have via clients and consider instead that the impact of your management style is truly lasting.

[Quinn]

Years ago, I remember reading in Reader's Digest, a quote from the new CEO of one of the airlines. Roughly he said that the customer is not always right, but his employees were. If we, as a company don't back our employees and trust them to make the right decissions, they won't be able to trust us and work to their full potential. Those companies that say that the customer is always right have sold out their employees.

 

 

[Dave McReynolds]

Roughly he said that the customer is not always right, but his employees were.

 

You think this attitude could have anything to do with the great love and brand loyalty that we as customers feel toward airlines these days?

[Lets_Play_Two]

"Third is an emphasis on employees, but there are two approaches. The bad one is to hire employees to help the key people make money. Not a good plan. It's better for management to focus nearly all their energies on providing a healthy and ethical environment. If that's their focus, the employees will do whatever is necessary to make the business profitable and effective. If you as an owner take care of the employee, the employee will take care of the client. That's much more scalable."

 

I agree with all of this. I ran a company with about 150 employees. We were in business to make money and we stressed that the customers were of utmost importance and employees needed to keep that always at the top. At the same time I treated all the employees as I wanted to be treated. Nobody punched a clock, but you always know who gives extra effort. Those people were never turned down if they needed two hours to have a school conference or take a kid to see the doctor...always with pay. Every employee received a bonus tied to company performance and their own individual goals. Performance was also recognized periodically with individual awards---always cash, employees prefer cash to certificates!!--. Chair massages during high stress times of the year and any other things the managers could think of that said employees were important. Very inexpensive and always paid back by employee loyalty and extra effort. I still regularly get emails from former employees just saying hi!!!

 

I wonder what is gone...the employer recognition or the willingness of the employee to go the extra step?

 

[Dave McReynolds]

What I tell all my clients is this. A properly balanced business is about three things, in this order:

 

1) Money.

 

2) Impacting clients.

 

3) Employees.

 

 

Generally, in looking back at the more successful of my clients over the years, I can't disagree with your priorities. I would probably substitute "enrichment" for "money," since I think most successful business owners need much more than just money to keep them motivated. They need to be excited about their product or service, some are enriched by immersing themselves in the business while others are enriched by budgeting time for other interests, some need the rewards of community recognition for what they do, some are enriched by starting something that is small and making it grow significantly, some are enriched by mentoring their key employees to grow within the business and I even know some very successful businessmen who are proud that they have trained their prime competitors. I doubt very much that Steve Jobs would come to work anymore just to add another million to his bank account.

 

As far as business ethics is concerned, both words are meaningful. Every businessman I personally deal with believes he has something valuable to offer, either a product or service. While there are people whose lives are built around building scams or Ponzi schemes, that is not business: that is crime. But businessmen also expect the customers to be reasonably informed as to their own self-interests: caveat emptor. If someone will pay $10 for something the business would have been willing to sell for $1, then I think the business part of business ethics would dominate. If someone inadvertently pays their bill twice, I think a businessman would refund the overpayment without being asked. In that case, I think the ethics part of business ethics would dominate.

[John Ranalletta]

This is not a complicated issue. A company has a set a values and lives up to them or it doesn't. Making them public stiffens the spine and takes out the arbitrary and capricious application.

 

This is the Values Statement of the company for which I work. We've fired revenue producers when they don't perform accordingly. Another example: Almost six years ago, we hired a promising, young professional woman. During her interview, SHE VOLUNTEERED that she was planning a family. WE DIDN'T ASK. Two weeks later, driving from a client's office, she said she had some "news" to break to our principal. She'd just found out she was pregnant. She asked me what how I thought our principal would respond.

 

Because I could depend upon the efficacy of the values below, I said, "He will congratulate you and tell you he's happy for you. We can't say, 'family comes first' and do anything else." She's now our COO.

 

I would not consider working where there is no explicit values statement and a verifiable history of compliance.

We will be respected as a company of the highest ethical standards. Therefore,

• We will always operate honestly and ethically.
  
• We will do what we say we'll do.

The people at ADVISA matter at ADVISA. We recognize that life should be a balance between work and play. Therefore,

• Excellent performance will be rewarded.
  
• We will operate as a team - wherever possible helping each other.
  
• We will always treat each other with respect.
  
• Doing our jobs is important and will be valued and evaluated. But, family comes first.

We enter into a virtual business partnership with our clients whenever we work for or with them. We wish to be known as an organization that has our clients' interests at heart. Therefore,

• We will always act in the best interests of our clients.
• We will do our best to amaze our customers with the promptness of our response and the value of our service.

[ThomasJ]

Boy…some great thoughts and questions…just what I was hoping for…here are a few comments in return…

 

Regarding starting my own firm, I have thought of that many times but when I perform a self assessment to ascertain what products or services I could provide my list is woefully limited. I certainly do have tremendous respect and admiration to those individuals who take that risk, and even more, to those who are successful.

 

Regarding unions…no the outfits do not have them. My grandfather was a union steward (60+ yrs ago)and my dad was on both sides of the bargaining table, but mostly on the management side when I was growing up. That’s what I saw mostly so my opinion has been formed largely by his experiences.

 

Regarding unethical behavior…(perhaps these really aren’t examples of unethical conduct…just poor employee respect)

1. I was working a job where the company had a contract with the govt. and written right into the contract was the necessity that every employee who worked the contract must work an additional 12% of uncompensated overtime. When I asked how that could be the reply was the competition was also offering it so we had to also.

 

2. I was working an overseas assignment in Europe many years back for a company who also had deployed groups in other off-shore countries. The country agreements allowed my income to be tax free while guys in the other groups were taxed by the host country. The company took money out of my paycheck to pay the taxes of the other guys. Seems to me the company should have taken into account their anticipated tax burdens when bidding for the work…then again maybe they did…counted on those of us who were tax free.

 

At my present company we just went through company values training…ethics was not mentioned anywhere. Additionally, within the experienced staff our leadership is known to take whatever the employee is willing to give. There are bonus’ given, however, mostly when an individual threatens to leave or has already given notice. I have a great boss who strives to take care of his staff but he also knows what battles to fight on the executive level and which ones not too.

 

Thanks to the reply-ers for your comments…they have brought a degree of hope and are greatly appreciated.

Tom