New Honda VFR with Dual CLutch Gearbox

[TestPilot]

Autoblog is reporting that the 2010 VFR1200 will have a DCT ( link). The transmission will have 2 automatic modes (regular and sport) and a manual mode. The info comes from a Honda press release included in the post.

[philbytx]

IMHO - Just more expensive crap to go wrong/wear out and you usually end up having the dealer fix/replace it!

 

I never thought that I would admit it but with all this new electrickery and overengineering I am now, officially, a Luddite

[Paul Mihalka]

IMHO - Just more expensive crap to go wrong/wear out and you usually end up having the dealer fix/replace it!

 

I never thought that I would admit it but with all this new electrickery and overengineering I am now, officially, a Luddite

I'm glad I'm in good company!

[hANNAbONE]

+1

[smiller]

I kind of agree with the sentiment, but then again electronic ignition, fuel injection, four valves per cylinder, and ABS were once thought to be unnecessary and complex but the technologies eventually matured, became reliable, and ended up revolutionizing motorcycle performance. I sure wouldn't want to be an early adopter of expensive new technology (hard to avoid for a BMW fan ), and I certainly don't like complexity simply for complexity's sake, but every idea has to start somewhere. If (and it's an admittedly big if) the Honda system proves to be reliable I think a selectable auto/manual mode is a nifty idea, auto mode for dealing with boring, repetitive traffic such as a commute and manual for sporting use. Up to now (in bikes that had an automatic option) you had to choose one or the other at purchase time and live with it... a true selectable option is a much better idea.

[T__]

Well, well just have to wait & see how this thing pans out on a motorcycle.. Probably won’t be a clutch lever as manual clutch control will probably not work out with 2 clutches & proper gear selection.. I would imagine auto clutch engagement on drive-away from a stop..

 

Hey, maybe paddle shifters instead of a foot pedal..

 

It might be OK in a motorcycle as most riders are already used to a sequential gear box.. We have tried some dual clutch gear boxes in automobiles (I think Audi/VW still uses one in some applications) but most drivers don’t seem to like them as they are not used to a sequential gear box..

 

On the ones I have driven there were some quirks in the shifting & shift timing.. Seemed to work pretty good on a normal accel drive-away as the next higher gear would already be selected & up shifting was pretty seemless..

The hiccup was on a normal drive-away at light throttle & just as the trans upshifted to the next higher gear you wanted to hammer the throttle to get around a problem or into a hole in traffic.. The trans would be in say in 3rd gear,, you were accelerating lightly so the trans 2nd clutch shaft would already have selected 4th gear but to get the proper acceleration you needed to down shift to 2nd gear. There was a fair lag as the 2nd clutch shaft had to drop out of the pe-selected 4th gear & get into the needed 2nd gear then get that clutch engaged.. Over-run engine braking was a little bulky also due to unknown gear down on coast vs decel..

Even with computer control it has to know where the shift is going next to pre-select the proper next gear range.. Maybe Honda has some of that worked out better than the ones I drove..

 

 

Twisty

 

[Deadboy]

IMHO - Just more expensive crap to go wrong/wear out and you usually end up having the dealer fix/replace it!

 

I never thought that I would admit it but with all this new electrickery and overengineering I am now, officially, a Luddite

 

I had to google that to figure out what you meant...

[Jeepster]

I kind of agree with the sentiment, but then again electronic ignition, fuel injection, four valves per cylinder, and ABS were once thought to be unnecessary and complex

but the technologies eventually matured, became reliable, and ended up revolutionizing motorcycle performance.

Except for ABS none of the other "improvements" listed change the skill set of driving a motorcycle. While an automatic trans or an automatic clutch is fine for you if that's what you want.

I prefer a little more retro experience. And a cheaper maintenence and repairs.

[baggerchris]

I gave up on that motorcycle when they went to that variable valve system they love so much that just adds complexity without much overall gain. If they had kept the original normal system I would own one by now. (I don't like that white paint job either).

[hopz]

electrickery?

 

I agree. I didn't trust electric windows in cars for the first 10 years. I think they have just about got that sorted out now.

 

Fuel Injection? nah... just too new to be certain of it. And that ECM stuff is way strange.

 

I miss fuel shut off valves (and reserve tanks) and the smell of gasoline on my fingers after I return from a ride. It just feels so... incomplete... to just pull into the garage and then walk away.

[Rich06FJR1300]

i'd be interested in seeing this technology, i know VW is starting to produce cars with double clutches, just not sure of what the added benefit is, if any. So if VW is doing it, you beemer guys should be on board with it LOL

[T__]

Rich, the big advantage to dual clutches is SEEMLESS up & down shifting..

 

Using a single clutch on ONE transmission input shaft in order to shift to a higher or lower gear you need to de-clutch (there is a break in power transmission at that time).. That is time the vehicle is not under forward power & causes a rider lurch..

 

With two transmission input shafts & two clutches while one transmission gear is still driving the motorcycle forward the second clutch is dis-engaged & the (next) gear is already pre shifted.. So when it comes to shift time all that needs to happen is for the driving clutch to release as the other clutch to engage.. With proper hydraulic & computer control it acts just like an automatic transmission on the shifts as all you feel is the next gear pick up & pull as the clutches trade driving duties..

 

Or—in 1st gear sitting still both clutches are disengaged,, the transmission is in both 1st & 2nd gear,, as you give it some throttle the 1st gear clutch automatically engages & you drive away in 1st gear,, when it comes to shift time the transmission is already in 2nd gear so the 1st gear clutch simply disengages & the 2nd gear clutch engages,, at that time the 3rd gear also shifts but that clutch is disengaged so it isn’t doing anything,, when it comes to shift time again the 2nd gear clutch disengages & the 3rd gear clutch simply engages,, at that time 4th gear shifts on the other disengaged clutch,, & so on & so on..

 

This type of transmission has some things to offer over a planetary gear type automatic transmission… Packaging is one advantage,, little to no power loss due to torque converter or clutch pack drag,, many gears in a small space,, manual type sequential shifting,, lower transmission heat,, etc.. The biggest disadvantage is not easy to skip gears (ie 1st to 4th etc) & once it decides to pre-shift the next higher gear there is a delay in quickly downshifting if needed.. With good engine power & close gear ratio spacing this isn’t a real big deal though..

 

Twisty

 

[rob1100r]

IMHO - Just more expensive crap to go wrong/wear out and you usually end up having the dealer fix/replace it!

 

I never thought that I would admit it but with all this new electrickery and overengineering I am now, officially, a Luddite

 

I must admit I had to look up what a Luddite is...Now I have an idendity!

 

Being that Honda makes it one could ASSume that it will a work for quite a while with no issues(?) But I would pass, you can take this automatic stuff and keep it for a car, right along with a hydraulic clutch! (What will I do when I get a R1200 someday? )

[Selden]

Granted, it was a fake gear shift, in that the Aprilia Mana has a CVT transmission, but after riding one in sport/manual mode this summer, I fell in love with paddle shifters, and I found myself holding the throttle open, and just blipping the up paddle when I needed to shift. Because shifting was so effortless, I shifted up and down probably twice as often on a tight mountain road as I would have with a traditional layout. My reaction was "this is the way a motorcycle transmission should work."

 

If the new VFR comes with paddle shifters, and a true transmission, rather than a torque converter, and if Honda engineers have been able to keep the weight down, they could have hit a home run. From my one experience with paddle shifters, this is the future, and I would not regret seeing the antiquated hand clutch/foot shift arrangement disappear altogether.

[smiller]

Because shifting was so effortless, I shifted up and down probably twice as often on a tight mountain road as I would have with a traditional layout. My reaction was "this is the way a motorcycle transmission should work."

 

If the new VFR comes with paddle shifters, and a true transmission, rather than a torque converter, and if Honda engineers have been able to keep the weight down, they could have hit a home run. From my one experience with paddle shifters, this is the future, and I would not regret seeing the antiquated hand clutch/foot shift arrangement disappear altogether.

Oh gawd, noooooooo... that would be different from the way it's been done for the last 100 years...

 

[Selden]

Oh gawd, noooooooo... that would be different from the way it's been done for the last 100 years...

 

I started with the shifter on the right side.

[outpost22]

Oh gawd, noooooooo... that would be different from the way it's been done for the last 100 years...

 

I started with the shifter on the right side.

 

Gawd, me too. Was pretty embarrassing when downshifting and hit the foot brake by mistake.

 

 

[markgoodrich]

New Motorcyclist Magazine just hit my mailbox. They show photos of what they say is the new bike, claim it will have six-speed transmission, no double clutches, which may show on the alleged new ST due out allegedly in 2010. Article mentions 200mph speeds.

 

I see all this as really good news; prices for the previous model(s) may go way down I still miss my yellow 2000 VFR....

[TestPilot]

New Motorcyclist Magazine just hit my mailbox. They show photos of what they say is the new bike, claim it will have six-speed transmission, no double clutches, which may show on the alleged new ST due out allegedly in 2010. Article mentions 200mph speeds.

 

I see all this as really good news; prices for the previous model(s) may go way down I still miss my yellow 2000 VFR....

 

Later on in the same article it talks about the double clutch gearbox as an option.

[Penforhire]

I'm curious how it will handle tight u-turns where we normally slip the clutch and uphill starts. Centrifugal clutch maybe?

 

Dual-clutch sequential shifters are well regarded on current VW/Audi and Porsche applications. BMW cars didn't quite get the sequential auto-manual right with their SMG.

 

I like the concept for cars, the advantages of an auto with the direct connection and control of a manual. Never misses a shift.

 

Nobody riding a current hexhead or K-bike qualifies as a Luddite. Only if you are still grumbling that the last real BMW was your airhead.

[OlGeezer]

IMHO - Just more expensive crap to go wrong/wear out and you usually end up having the dealer fix/replace it!

 

I never thought that I would admit it but with all this new electrickery and overengineering I am now, officially, a Luddite

 

I had to google that to figure out what you meant...

 

Seriously?

 

With your background?

 

I'm shocked!

[Deadboy]

No not really....

[BadAndy]

After owning a 2000 Accord I wouldn't be too eager to see an automatic tranny on their bikes. {cough}

 

 

[Little_Brit]

Having driven (but not owned!) a VW Passat with the DCT gearbox for over a month I can say that it is a mighty impressive device, probably the best auto-box you can possibly imagine.

 

Gear changes are completely seamless up or down. You can opt to change gear "manually" and these occur every bit as smoothly as the auto changes. The ONLY small fly in the ointment is that when you change down it will only engage the next lower ratio when the wheels have slowed down enough to not cause the engine to over run.

 

As a bonus the car is quicker to 60mph than the manual box and it is more economical on fuel by a small margin too.

 

I can imagine that it would work extremely well on a big bike. And what's a bit more sophistication on a motorcycle that will have electronic ignition, fuel injection, ABS etc., etc.

 

Derek

 

R1200GS

 

Ducati S2R 800

[philbytx]

Ferzackerly right mate

 

A clutch cable or Hydraulic fluid (and maybe seals) are CHEAP

[philbytx]

Err!

Being an "ageing" Limey I've BTDT - Just try doing that your first day on an RT with whizzy brakes

 

 

[Selden]

Looks like it's not a rumor: More details...

 

Note bottom left of the engine cutaway: no more chain drive for the new VFR.

[russell_bynum]

+1

 

What he said.

 

But what do I know...I never met an automatic transmission I didn't hate. They're unnecessary, complex, heavy, inefficient, expensive, are never in the right gear, take forever to shift, and don't let you modulate power through the clutch. They have absolutely no redeeming qualities.

[Roadwolf]

Anyone wanting to see some better pics of the new VFR bike lately (these are not the ones from over a month ago).

 

http://www.motoblog.it/post/20739/le-foto-spia-della-nuova-honda-v4-a-spasso-per-le-alpi

[philbytx]

Welcome to the Luddite fellowship Russel

[Highway41]

The longer my RT is the shop the better looking the new VFR becomes.

Bill

[EffBee]

Unable to find a good, low-mileage 1100RT, I shunned the servo-brake overoveroverdrive 6th gear 1150 and the KTM-styled 1200 (think of it in orange and black and see what I mean), and went to a simple 650 Wee-strom. I'm enjoying it. There's still room in my heart, my garage and my wallet for an 1100RT. But nothing more. Hell, I bought an unopened iPod Touch from my granddaughter a month ago and it's still sitting on the kitchen counter. I think I have to sign up at ITT Technical School just to get UPGRADED to Luddite status.

 

Now, where did I leave that tablet and chisel?

[eddd]

Unable to find a good, low-mileage 1100RT, I shunned the servo-brake overoveroverdrive 6th gear 1150 and the KTM-styled 1200 (think of it in orange and black and see what I mean), and went to a simple 650 Wee-strom. I'm enjoying it. There's still room in my heart, my garage and my wallet for an 1100RT. But nothing more. Hell, I bought an unopened iPod Touch from my granddaughter a month ago and it's still sitting on the kitchen counter. I think I have to sign up at ITT Technical School just to get UPGRADED to Luddite status.

 

Now, where did I leave that tablet and chisel?

 

If I had to replace my R1100RT, I'd look for another. I'm with you on the servo, linked brakes, and hydraulic clutch. I'm all for improvement and progress, but I don't see it in these areas.

[VinnyR11]

Interesting how so many are claiming Ludditeship (Yes, Ludditeship is a word. I just made it up.) I don't think you're allowed to claim yourself a Luddite on an Internet forum.

 

As an aside, I really like double clutch transmissions on cars. Not so sure I'd like it on a bike.

[gdouglas]

My take on this new engineering is they are simply engineering for the sake of those that can't ride a normal bike with a conventional clutch and transmission. People like this don't belong on a bike to begin with, much less driving a car.

 

How much longer is society going to keep accommodating those that can't get with the program?

[Kitsap]

My take on this new engineering is they are simply engineering for the sake of those that can't ride a normal bike with a conventional clutch and transmission. People like this don't belong on a bike to begin with, much less driving a car.

 

How much longer is society going to keep accommodating those that can't get with the program?

 

I can ride a normal bike and like this idea so no I don't think they are accommodating those that can't get with the program. When index shifting was introduced on bicycles all the old timers whined about the "new technology" that would complicate maintenance and the like. What a bunch of bull. If you don't like the product don't buy it, but don't label everyone else that may find it useful.

 

Cheers.

[russell_bynum]

My take on this new engineering is they are simply engineering for the sake of those that can't ride a normal bike with a conventional clutch and transmission. People like this don't belong on a bike to begin with, much less driving a car.

 

How much longer is society going to keep accommodating those that can't get with the program?

 

I can ride a normal bike and like this idea so no I don't think they are accommodating those that can't get with the program. When index shifting was introduced on bicycles all the old timers whined about the "new technology" that would complicate maintenance and the like. What a bunch of bull. If you don't like the product don't buy it, but don't label everyone else that may find it useful.

 

Cheers.

 

Index shifting does complicate maintenance. It is also heavier and the extra set of cables flapping in the breeze is added wind resistance.

 

It might be that those drawbacks are worth the advantages (more positive shifts) but don't pretend that the disadvantages don't exist.

 

As for this...different strokes, I guess. I don't like auto transmissions in anything....least of all motorcycles.

 

Honestly, it bugs me more that Honda seems to have lost what a VFR is supposed to be. 1200cc is too much. That'll hurt the weight and the fuel economy, and the 800 had plenty of power. Shaft drive is heavy, complicated, and inefficient. This whizbang gearbox is overly complicated and will no doubt be heavier than a proper gearbox. So....they took a great little lightweight sport tourer and made it a heavy, overcomplicated pig.

[BadAndy]

My take on this new engineering is they are simply engineering for the sake of those that can't ride a normal bike with a conventional clutch and transmission. People like this don't belong on a bike to begin with, much less driving a car. How much longer is society going to keep accommodating those that can't get with the program?

Didn't people say that about automatic equipment on cars?

[russell_bynum]

My take on this new engineering is they are simply engineering for the sake of those that can't ride a normal bike with a conventional clutch and transmission. People like this don't belong on a bike to begin with, much less driving a car. How much longer is society going to keep accommodating those that can't get with the program?

Didn't people say that about automatic equipment on cars?

 

Yep.

[VinnyR11]

My take on this new engineering is they are simply engineering for the sake of those that can't ride a normal bike with a conventional clutch and transmission. People like this don't belong on a bike to begin with, much less driving a car.

 

How much longer is society going to keep accommodating those that can't get with the program?

 

How about when cars and motorcycles in general were the new technology. Can't get much simpler than walking, but you'll have a hard time convincing me that new engineering is always, or even most often, a bad thing.

[Motors]

Looks like a RT rear end! Oh no!!!