Rocker End Play - Measurment

[lvmyks]

Watching Jim B. video on Rocker end play. He said .05 ~ .40 mm. On other measurement he gives it in inches. Well I used a converter and .05 mm is .002 inches.. This is hair thin. What measurement do you use? I know intake is .015 and exhaust is .030...

Thanks.

[RodB]

Those be the specs....

[Don_Eilenberger]

It is hair thin - which is why it's important to make sure there IS clearance all the way through the stroke of the rocker.. I've heard of two cases now where people had problems when getting down to the lowest spec with it binding as the engine turns over.

 

I usually shoot for 0.005".. it's still quiet and vibration free, but it has enough play there is no danger of it binding.

[Selden]

I was one of those people; fortunately without doing any valve damage. Don's target is a very sensible one. It's very difficult to get identical intake and exhaust rocker clearances; if you get lucky, they'll be the same, otherwise, if you can get them within 0.001 of each other, it's close enough.

[bmweerman]

Watching Jim B. video on Rocker end play. He said .05 ~ .40 mm. On other measurement he gives it in inches. Well I used a converter and .05 mm is .002 inches.. This is hair thin. What measurement do you use? I know intake is .015 and exhaust is .030...

Thanks.

 

Pointless factoid for the day....

 

Actually the average human hair, at least the ones I have measured, are closer to 0.003"

[Selden]

Pointless factoid for the day....

 

Actually the average human hair, at least the ones I have measured, are closer to 0.003"

Well, there ya go -- why waste money on feeler gauges, when you can just pluck a hair out of your head. Beard hairs are probably thicker.

[DMilan]

I was one of those people; fortunately without doing any valve damage. Don's target is a very sensible one. It's very difficult to get identical intake and exhaust rocker clearances; if you get lucky, they'll be the same, otherwise, if you can get them within 0.001 of each other, it's close enough.

 

And I was another of those people.

The tech and I were trying to get near the low end of the spec. First time doing this procedure for both of us.

 

Anyway, we set the spec to the low end. Everything seemed to go OK with the exception that we had loosened things a bit too much and when we would tap the bridge to close it, it would simply bounce back to original setting or larger. Finally got it all set.

 

Well, turns out there was a burr on one of the rocker arms. So even though we had a proper spec at the measuring points which we were using, we DID NOT HAVE PROPER SPEC AT THE BURR. The burr machined a channel in the bridge and ended up binding anyway.

Horrible sounds.

 

We disassembled, ground the burr off of the rocker arm, re-assembled to a slightly more loose setting, .15-ish mm, and seemingly all has been well for 5,000 miles. No valve damage I guess. Although every noise I hear down there still gets my attention. I'm anxious to get in there and have a look when I perform my next 6K service.

 

 

Actually, I had the the measurements in my file cab..

Exhaust .130mm and Intake .178mm

I assume that's what they still are.

Guys, should I adjust it again to get them more equal, or leave it alone?

We have already had to retorque the head bolt twice. I hear that this can be a problem.

 

Dmilan

 

[T__]

Lvmyks, it is very difficult to get a feeler gauge all the way around the rocker arm.. With that in mind & the possibility there could be a tight spot I always use a dial indicator to set the rocker arm end play movement.. It is MUCH more accurate & shows the actual arm movement not just spots around it..

I usually set to as close to .003” as I can get them.. I do blow the oil out first as cold engine oil can give a little false total movement..

 

When setting yours- start by tightening the bolts/nuts & keep checking the clearance as you tighten things as the gap WILL change as the bolts/nuts are tightened.. Sometimes you have to skew the original setting to get it to end up where you need it when tight.. You can also use a soft drift or soft hammer to tap the end caps in the direction you need to maintain the gaps as you tighten things up..

 

Just keep checking as you torque the bolts/nuts so you end up where you need it..

 

 

 

The picture is just showing a rocker movement re-check at valve adjustment time.. For actual initial setting clamp the indicator to a top head nut as that way you can leave the indicator in place during the entire adjustment..

 

 

Twisty

[lvmyks]

Well and friend and I did the adjustment. We could not get the smallest measurement as we got a bind. We ended up with .18mm on both heads and freed rockers.

[T__]

Ron, if your end play REALLY ended up at .18mm (.007”) that is a bit on the high side so they will probably still be slightly noisy..

But if there was a bind when set at minimum then there obviously was a tight place where your feeler gauge wasn’t inserted so the ACTUAL end play was less than you measured in any one place..

That is why I use the dial indicator as it shows the ACTUAL (total) rocker arm movement not just a few spots around arm..

 

When all done & with the rocker arm not touching ether valve try quickly moving the rocker arm up & down with force.. If you can hear it click you will hear it running..

 

Twisty

 

[Huzband]

These threads crack me up. As far as I'm concerned, it's just another oil thread.

 

I've been doing end-play adjustment for over thirty years. In the early days, we didn't even use a feeler guage. As long as there was feelable verticle movement in the rocker arm, & we could see oil squish from the edges, it was good to go. Still is.

 

Admittadly today, I use a feeler guage. Not for fear of binding, but just to see where I'm at. It can be a tedious task to be sure, but I will ALWAYS get it down to .002.

 

BTW, I have never, EVER, had a binding problem with my technique.

 

Butler & Smith certificate on the wall from 1/24-28/1977.

[Lawman]

I've tried to check mine but never adjusted them..The dealer did the 600 mile service..I can't feel any play or movement when I move them up and down..I have 43,000 miles on my RT and it runs great..What happens if they are too tight? Have you ever known of a bike damaged by them being too tight?

[T__]

Billy, if they were too tight you would have hung a valve & had a piston hit it by now.. If they are too tight the rocker arm sticks or hangs on cold start so the valve can’t quickly return.. Would have showed up on the coldest morning start right after the service was done..

 

 

Twisty

 

[Lawman]

Thanks..Glad I asked..I've always worried a little bit about it but was afraid I'd screw it up if I tried to adjust it..sometimes I'm better off to leave well enough alone and I think this is one of em...

[Don_Eilenberger]

When all done & with the rocker arm not touching ether valve try quickly moving the rocker arm up & down with force.. If you can hear it click you will hear it running..

 

Twisty

This is actually my final check.. once done with setting the clearances, and at every valve adjustment - I move the rocker arm up/down. If I hear a "clack" - it's time to check the clearances. If I hear a very quiet "click" - it's OK.. it's at about 0.004"-0.005" which works well for me. And as Danny mentioned - the oil squish from the joint between the rocker and the blocks is a big clue that it's right and not binding.

[Albert]

Danny,

I didn't have time to read your whole post. To paraphrase, are you saying you have synthetic valves and a BS certificate?

[Huzband]

No comment.

[Matts_12GS]

LOL....

 

Danny, you want to come and do some coaching on this Wed. night? I'm gonna do my RT since it's on Craigslist....

[Huzband]

Tomorrow night? I'll be there, just tell me what time. I'll bring my calibrated axe.

 

Oh, & beers?

[Matts_12GS]

I have beers. Call it 7:30?

We can do the GS too then, I'll have all the guards and valve covers ready to drop off and adjust.

 

I need to do some tires too, wine or more beers?

[Huzband]

 

I need to do some tires too, wine or more beers?

 

Yes.

 

Hey, it's your bike.

[Matts_12GS]

[Bernie]

Danny, I think you need to spread that work out a little.

Looks to be about weeks or two worth of work, ahem beer.

 

 

Matt, you better buy Danny dinner also.

[Matts_12GS]

I'll buy him all the pancakes he can eat in Tampa Saturday morning

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If I have new tires on my bikes by then....

[Huzband]

I'll buy him all the pancakes he can eat in Tampa Saturday morning

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If I have new tires on my bikes by then....

 

Expecting to see ya tonight.

[ed may]

How criticle is it to retorque the headbolts, and how often? I would love to do all this maintenence myself, but this is starting to sound very complicated, and I'm a 17 year auto tech! How much do the dealers charge for these services, and do you think they perform the checks as well as we all would on our own bikes?

[T__]

Ed, you ask:

 

How criticle is it to retorque the headbolts, ---- Fairly critical the first time (@1000 miles).. Then real critical if they are ever loosened for any reason (like rocker arm end play)

 

and how often? ---- First service 1000 mi,, then never again if not loosened for any reason & no leaks show up..

 

I would love to do all this maintenence myself, but this is starting to sound very complicated, ---- some things are more complicated than others but nothing is really that difficult if you know your way around a wrench & do the PROPER research before starting.. It REALLY helps to make a DETAILED work sheet to check the things off as you do them (otherwise it’s easy to forget a step)

 

How much do the dealers charge for these services, ---- Depends on the dealer & where they are located.. The price per hour is usually from $75.00 to around $95.00 per labor hour.. A service (depends on type) can take 2-4 hours usually.. Plus retail or parts..

 

do you think they perform the checks as well as we all would on our own bikes?---- Again it depends on the dealer,, how busy,, how many times interrupted,, competency of tec,, etc.. In (my) opinion,, as a rule no they don’t do as well on other peoples bikes as their own stuff but there are some real good competent tecs out there,, you just have to find the right one you can trust..

 

 

Twisty

 

 

[Zweiradfreak]

Can someone tell me the proper torque for the rocker arm torx and 15mm nut fastners. I'm doing my valves today and decided I should check the rocker arm also. Please.

[CoarsegoldKid]

The T-45 torx are 15 nm and the 15mm nut(only one) is 20nm plus another 180 degrees of turn. I know it seems weird to me to add 180 why not just publish a higher torque. Happy motoring!

[Don_Eilenberger]

The reason for "angle-torquing" is - it's a more accurate measurement of the bolt stretch (which is what is happening here.)

 

If you think about torquing a big nut like that - the difference between 50nm and 60nm might be 10-15 degrees. Hard to get it really exactly at the desired torque. Better than nothing, but not terribly accurate, especially in a case where a bolt has been pre-stretched, or the threads have oil on them.

 

If you start with a snug bolt (which the 20nm is) with no play - and then turn it 180 degrees you able to come much closer to the desired tightening caused by the bolt stretch.

 

It's a better way to handle large bolts/nuts like that.

[CoarsegoldKid]

Thanks for the explanation.

[progress49]

The reason for "angle-torquing" is - it's a more accurate measurement of the bolt stretch (which is what is happening here.)

 

If you think about torquing a big nut like that - the difference between 50nm and 60nm might be 10-15 degrees. Hard to get it really exactly at the desired torque. Better than nothing, but not terribly accurate, especially in a case where a bolt has been pre-stretched, or the threads have oil on them.

 

If you start with a snug bolt (which the 20nm is) with no play - and then turn it 180 degrees you able to come much closer to the desired tightening caused by the bolt stretch.

 

It's a better way to handle large bolts/nuts like that.

 

Is it possible to strip the the bolt? Should you use a 3/8 drive or a 1/2 inch? I got around to 90+ but it seemed so snug I was afraid I'd damage it if I torqued it more.

 

Thanks,

 

Peter

[T__]

Peter, make darn sure you are starting out at only 20 nm.. If the initial torque is high the 180° will be too far..

 

Not sure you will actually strip one but too much torque could pull a stud out of the block..

 

They do feel strange something like they are starting to strip at the 180°..

 

I always use a long ½” breaker bar with my torque angle gauge to get an exact 180°..

 

Be sure the stud threads & nut side is lubricated with engine oil..

 

 

Twisty

 

[progress49]

Peter, make darn sure you are starting out at only 20 nm.. If the initial torque is high the 180° will be too far..

 

Not sure you will actually strip one but too much torque could pull a stud out of the block..

 

They do feel strange something like they are starting to strip at the 180°..

 

I always use a long ½” breaker bar with my torque angle gauge to get an exact 180°..

 

Be sure the stud threads & nut side is lubricated with engine oil..

 

 

Twisty

 

Thanks for that, I'll check it again at the next service.

[BMWRich58]

Don't forget to do it all in 1 motion...not 90° stop and then another 90°...just do it all in one motion...180° then stop at 180.

 

For me and what I practise and have experienced,as far as re-torquing after release of the "4" head bolt nuts during a rocker arm service,I've never had to re-torque 600 or 1000 miles later.

But if I were to release all "5" fastners,4 head bolt nuts and the 1 hex head bolt,then yea,I'd re-torque after 600-1000 miles.

[Jim VonBaden]

As I say in my video, I set the end play at .10mm just to allow for any inconsistancies in the machining.

 

Also, just to be clear, the three bolts pictured here are 20nm, some of my early DVDs said 40nm incorrectly!

 

 

The head nut is 20nm plus a 180° turn.

 

More info here: http://www.jimvonbaden.com/DVD_Corrections.html

 

Jim

[pbirck]

A couple of things regarding rocker arm end play: The 3 nuts in JVB's DVD are larger than T-40, aren't they? Are they T45? I've never adjusted the rocker arm end play. Today I adjusted the valves and on one side there is a rather loud clicking noise as the engine warms up (after only a couple minutes). I measured the rocker arm end play with the engine cold -- one side measures between .35 and .40. The other side is around .25. Might the clicking noise be due to the rocker arm end play being too large when the engine warms up? Thanks.

[Jim VonBaden]

A couple of things regarding rocker arm end play: The 3 nuts in JVB's DVD are larger than T-40, aren't they? Are they T45? I've never adjusted the rocker arm end play. Today I adjusted the valves and on one side there is a rather loud clicking noise as the engine warms up (after only a couple minutes). I measured the rocker arm end play with the engine cold -- one side measures between .35 and .40. The other side is around .25. Might the clicking noise be due to the rocker arm end play being too large when the engine warms up? Thanks.

 

You are at the very outside of the adjustment limit, which definitely can cause the noise you hear.

 

By the way, check out my corrections page about the endplay: http://www.jimvonbaden.com/DVD_Corrections.html

 

Jim