R1150RT exhaust valve burn't

[Weegie]

I just got word that I have a burn't exhaust valve on my 02 r1150 rt,22,000 mi.All valve work was done by a dealer.Any reason other than bad adjusting of the valves that could have caused this.The bike showed no sign of any trouble until it was too late and all compression was lost and I was on the side of the turnpike.I did hear that valves might be a problem on some 02' RT's

[Ken H.]

Best guess is indeed mis-adjustment. Beyond that, valve failures on any boxer motor are exceedingly rare. '02 or otherwise.

 

Oh, and welcome to the board!

[smiller]

Ken said it. No special problems with the valves on the '02 nor any oilhead for that matter. Misadjustment accounts for the vast majority of 'unexplained' valve failures.

 

Yet another reason to take an hour or so and just do it yourself.

[Weegie]

thanks for the input,I was shocked to hear it was a valve.I really thought it was electrical.As of right now bmw is not willing to meet me half way on the costs.Thet did do the valves!!.I will be doing my own from now .I have always done my own work in the past but thought these valves are tricky and should leave them to the expert........not.Live and learn.Now my rt will have to earn my trust again.It is no fun broke down on the pike!!!

On thr brite side I do love my bike and am waiting for it too come back from the shop now.....2 weeks today she's been gone

[exwingnut]

That stinks...any other dealers in your vicinity? I would be very quick to find one.

 

Steve

[bmw_rider]

Gee if he filled in his profile we could tell if there were other dealers, or board members in his area.

[Weegie]

I'll have to work on that profile,big hurry to use the message boards.There are a couple dealers in Cleveland area and this one has the better rep!.Time for tha do it yourself manual.

[RT Pilot]

I'm kinda paranoid about this burnt valve issue; I adjusted mine about 3000 miles ago. I just rode the bike (RT) to Maine and back (2 ten hour days in the saddle) without so much as a hiccup. The bike runs great, and the oil temps have been normal. That being said, I have a few questions:

 

How many miles does it take to burn a valve if its misadjusted?

 

As the engine wears, do the valves tend to tighten or loosen?

 

Are there any symptoms of a valve misadjustment that could give you a hint that they're misadjusted?

 

If you use the correct gauges and do everything right, can you still end up with a burnt valve?

 

Am I being overly concerned about this?

 

Thanks in advance!

 

Rob

[270]

I'm kinda paranoid about this burnt valve issue; I adjusted mine about 3000 miles ago. I just rode the bike (RT) to Maine and back (2 ten hour days in the saddle) without so much as a hiccup. The bike runs great, and the oil temps have been normal. That being said, I have a few questions:

 

How many miles does it take to burn a valve if its misadjusted?

 

As the engine wears, do the valves tend to tighten or loosen?

 

Are there any symptoms of a valve misadjustment that could give you a hint that they're misadjusted?

 

If you use the correct gauges and do everything right, can you still end up with a burnt valve?

 

Am I being overly concerned about this?

 

Thanks in advance!

 

Rob

 

FWIW, I adjusted the valves and set the TB before I left for the IBR. I rode the dickens out of the bike without even changing the oil. I added one pint. Tonight, I broke it down and checked the valves, which were maybe a tad bit loose, but not bad enough to mess with. Idle was off a hair (low) as it was before I left. High speed balance was nearly spot on...after ~13,000! I wouldn't sweat the valves too much. These things generally tend to loosen instead of getting tighter, which is the cause of a burnt exhaust valve.

 

Don't panic! It will be fine.

[smiller]

As Allen says, no need to sweat it, no problem after even an IBR or two. The valvetrain on the oilheads has proven to be very robust. My usual check interval is 12k and rarely an adjustment needed. The problems only occur if you or your dealer rushes through the job and makes a mistake. Of course, the difference is that you can control whether you rush through the job or not, but can't control what another mechanic does.

[Ken H.]

How many miles does it take to burn a valve if its misadjusted?

If really off, overly tight, maybe as little as 100 miles/km. But then it would be running terrible from the get-go which should give any 1/2 awake mechanic something of a clue they blew the adjustment.

As the engine wears, do the valves tend to tighten or loosen?

They tighten.

Are there any symptoms of a valve misadjustment that could give you a hint that they're misadjusted?

Way tight - poor or no performance, back and after firing. A bit tight - too quiet of valve train noise. Way loose - very noisy valve train noise, reduced performance. A bit loose - a bit noisier valve train. A bit too loose is always safer than too tight.

If you use the correct gauges and do everything right, can you still end up with a burnt valve?

Oh sure. The valve itself is defective, the stem is bent, it's binding it guide preventing rotation...

Am I being overly concerned about this?

Yes.

[KDeline]

I burned a valve at about 24000 miles, on a 99 RT, but it was covered under warranty. I do my own and they said they were ajusted right, just must have gotten bad metal or not machined right from the beggining.

[ShovelStrokeEd]

You are all forgetting the most common cause for burnt valves on these things, which, if you consider the number, is not all that common. A chunk of carbon, and it doesn't have to be very big, becomes lodged on the valve seat and holds the exhaust valve open just enough so it no longer will seal. The plasma of gases as a result of combustion are only too happy to escape through this tiny gap. They quickly erode the valve face (its much softer than the seat). The typical valve that has burnt in this way will have a V shaped notch cut out of it.

 

Its really pretty rare and not worth making such a fuss. DooDoo do happen ya know.

[MTRREF]

I lost a chunk (~2mm x 4mm) from an exhaust valve on the right side of my 2002 R1150RT-P w/ 56K miles on it. Local rep told me that there have been a few similar failures, but not a "significant" number. They don't have an explanation, but all of the reported failures seem to be on the right side jug. My problem was fixed under warranty and included a complete right jug valve job w/ all new valves.

 

Jim

[TVdawg]

They should not meet you half way. They should eat the entire cost. On a bike with so few miles this should be a warranty issue. Also since they did the work they should stand behind it. Sure it could have been caused by a bit of carbon but I doubt it.

 

Go back to the dealer again and if they don't play ball, go to BMWNA and see what they say. You may also want to contact the TV stations in your area and talk to their consumer affairs reporter and see if they can shake up the dealer a bit.

 

Any good dealer will do anything to keep a customer happy. The fastest way to go out of business is treating customers the way you are being treated.

[jrparodi]

First, I'll agree that burnt valves are pretty rare. That being said, a friend recently lost a valve for the third time on his 2002 RT, averaging a burnt valve every 10k miles.

 

First two were covered under warrentee, the third was outside the warrentee period- however the dealer did give him a trade in value as if the bike was in 100% perfect condition and he is now riding a 1200GS.

 

I believe all valves lost were on the right side. Dealer has no explanation, but they have recently learned of another similar case. The RT was serviced either by the dealer, or my friend and myself. We both alternate between dealer and self service of our bikes. I've got 74K miles on my RT, never a valve problem regardless of whether the dealer or I did my services.

 

My friend runs Chevron gas (which is praised for reducing carbon build up), doesn't lug the bike... dealer replaced the entire right side of the engine at the second lost valve.

 

Good luck,

[peterbulgar]

First, I'll agree that burnt valves are pretty rare. That being said, a friend recently lost a valve for the third time on his 2002 RT, averaging a burnt valve every 10k miles

 

John - I'll bet that your friend doesn't think a burned exhaust valve is rare. The shop replaced the entire right side top end and he still got another burned valve? Something more is going on here - lean injectors, timing off on one cylinder (if that's possible), a bad batch of valves - something. If I were your friend I wouldn't plan any long trips. Reminds me of a friend who had a flat on his rear tire. He pulled the wheel, pulled the tube, repaired the hole, put everything back together and got half a block before he had another flat - he hadn't removed the nail from the tire.

peter '73 R75/5, '04 R1150RA

[Weegie]

I think the village grouch might be on to something with the carbon theory.except the bike was running well and no sign of a stuck open valve.No rough idle and loss of compression.I hope it was an isolated case and I can enjoy the bike again.I will be leary for a while though.It will have to earn my trust again!!!!.No word from bmw on covering the costs of the repairs.Still waiting for my head to come back from the machine shop.

[ShovelStrokeEd]

They will actually run pretty well with an exhaust valve stuck a bit open so long as you avoid wide open throttle. Heck, my old Zuki drag bike once made a 9.4 second pass with 8 bent exhaust valves due to a dumb ass timing the cams. Of course it would have been an 8.5 second pass with the valves healthy.

 

The real problem occurs with that tiny leak as the gas velocity is much higher and the erosion takes place even faster. Once started, at even medium power levels, it happens pretty fast. The bike will be fine one day. Difficult to start the next morning and toast by lunch.

[jrparodi]

If I were your friend I wouldn't plan any long trips

 

Now that he is riding a 1200GS, he doesn't worry about the valves in the RT...

[powerman]

lost a chunk (~2mm x 4mm) from an exhaust valve on the right side of my 2002 R1150RT-P w/ 56K miles on it. Local rep told me that there have been a few similar failures, but not a "significant" number.

There have been at least three people i know with a piece of the valve just broke off (not burt). most 2002 and a 2004. something about bad valves. I think thay have a problem with metal.

[Couchrocket]

Same story here. 04 RT, 15.5K miles. Properly serviced / adjusted valves. Right jug exhaust valve went bye-bye.

Fixed under warranty.

Bike runs great "at the moment."

[smiller]

Properly serviced / adjusted valves.

 

At least so far as you know, anyway.

[WyreNut]

OK, bit of a brain fart here... When y'all refer to the valves as "tight", you do mean the clearance on the rocker arm is too large, resulting in the valve not opening to the proper clearance, correct? When I hear "loose" and "tight" I'm inclinded to think that refers to the gap on the feeler gauges...Just want to avoid any confusion for other new owners starting to maintain their steeds!

 

WyreNut

[Haynes]

Provided that the adjustment was correct, or near enough, the most likely cause is what Ed described with foreign material holding the valve open and causing a hot spot on the valve. Erosion by burning quickly takes over.

 

Another possible but unlikely cause is the valve being incorrectly machined. The error is more often the top of the valve stem and not at the head.

The valve and the face of the rocker arm are machined at so that the rocker arm induces rotation of the valve each time it opens. This is to discourage a hot-spot developing on the valve face.

 

Generally, machining problems like this expose themselves much sooner than 20,000 miles. Many valve failures due to poor machining happen within 5000 miles or so.

[smiller]

'Tight' means too small a clearance, and 'loose' means too much.

 

Provided that the adjustment was correct, or near enough, the most likely cause is what Ed described with foreign material holding the valve open and causing a hot spot on the valve.

 

Yes, provided that the adjustment was correct I would agree. But when someone else does the work (and thus you have no idea whether the adjustment was correct) and a valve fails a few k miles later I'm not sure why anyone would assume that a less likely event (obstructed or bad valve, etc.) is a more probable cause than a very likely event (a simple misadjustment.) The latter is usually a much higher probability and as such I would assume it was the likely cause unless I had evidence to the contrary.

 

Or let's put it this way... if you bring me your bike for a valve adjustment and you have a valve failure a short while later, and you're all too happy to assume that it was some freak failure rather than imagine that it could be my work... well, you're sure the kind of customer I'd want to have I guess.

[AZBaldur]

I'm curious... what are the symptoms of a burnt valve? Vibration, overheating, loss of power, starting difficulties?

[ShovelStrokeEd]

All of the above

[AZBaldur]

I was afraid of that. My bike has been running a lot hotter than it used to and it vibrates terribly across the RPM range. Doesn't seem to have the same get-up-and-go either. TB sync is spot-on, though, according to my water manometer.

 

I checked the valves and the rocker arm end plays this morning, and all was well, but... one cylinder was far easier to bring to TDC than the other. Plus, I swear I heard a wheezing sound from inside the motor. It's more likely to be a burnt valve than scored rings and cylinder wall, right?

[smiller]

A leak-down test will tell you for sure. You can get a leak-down gauge set for $50-$100 and it's a good tool to have around.

[Larsen]

I'm going to try and keep this simple and assume that you don't have an Onboard or Stand Alone Engine Analyzer and you have a loss of power or rough running engine. On the R4360 28 Cylinder P&W Radial Engines that have 56 Spark Plugs in each Engine you were in for a lot of work if you didn't have at least a Bendix or Sperry Engine Analyzer!

 

With the Spark Plugs installed and the Engine turned over by hand you'll hear compression escaping out the exhaust pipe if you have a bad Exhaust Valve. If you have a bad Intake Valve you'll hear compression escaping out of the Intake/Air Filter area. If you have a hole burnt through a Piston, siezed Piston Rings, or scored Cylinder Walls you'll hear compression escaping from the Oil Filler Cap. If you hear no escaping gases you might just have a bad Spark Plug, Ignition Lead/Coil, or a clogged Fuel Injector.

 

If you heard escaping gases then remove the Spark Plugs and check the color of the Spark Plugs (the tip/gap/electrode area). If I find a dark colored, wet, oily, or unburnt fuel smelling Spark Plug you'll know what cylinder to look at. Before I go any further I check the Spark Plug under max compression in my Spark Plug Tester. If I have a good Spark Plug I'll check the Combustion Chamber (Valves, Piston, and Cylinder Walls) with my Borescope. Without a Borescope and you hear leakage out of your exhaust pipe you'll have to exercise the Exhaust Valve to see if, as Ed said above, you have a piece of carbon holding the Valve open. You will most likely also have lost any Valve Clearance. If you know what you are doing you can sometimes dislodge any carbon by tapping the Valve Stem as long as it has not run too long and eroded/burnt the Valve and/or Valve Seat.

 

Even if you have dislodged any carbon you should still use a Differential Pressure Tester as suggested above and see what percentage of your compression gases are escaping. Every Engine will bleed a small amount of compression past the rings. That's why your Engine Oil turns black. Some engine manufacturers allow up to 25% of leakage.

 

I used to teach Analyzing and Troubleshooting Engines and also, as an Independent FAA Designated Airframe and Powerplant Oral and Practical Examiner, I'd test applicants to see if they knew at least the basics. If you read what of the above applies to you you'll have something to help you troubleshoot your Engine out on the road or in your shop.

 

I hope this helps some of you,

[Weegie]

Back in August I burn't a right side exhaust valve on a R1150RT 2002.24,000 mi.out of warranty.The dealer and the BMW rep and I have been going round and round since then on the repair costs, and if it should be at least partially covered.The costs of both right side valves and the machining on the head was 545.00. I was told that they have no clue what could have caused the problem and they have had no issues with exhaust valves.I found thru the power of the internet and cycle world mag.that they in fact have had some problems with carbon deposits building up and getting under the valve .This will keep the valve from seating properly and cause a burning of the valve.Once I showed them the article in cycle world things got a little better as far as working with me on the costs.The rep said they would cover some of the costs and would send me a check for 265.00.I doubt they would have done this had I not done my homework.I have since put 1500mi. on the bike with no problems but am leary about taking a long trip of any kind.Hopefully it was an isolated case.Only time will tell.This has been going on sinse Aug.and I am still waiting for the check!!!!Lots of snow on the ground now so I am grounded till spring.I hope BMW stands by their product since I am in the market for a new toy soon!!!

[USAF1]

I had the same thing happen to both sides....it was covered under warranty. On a '97 RT.

 

Pat

[peterbulgar]

Weegie,

Did your bike consume a lot of oil between changes up to the time of your exhaust valve failure? (Like more than a quart every 2000 miles?) Did the shop say whether or not there was a lot of carbon in the combustion chamber and on the piston of the affected cylinder? If there was a lot of carbon, did they remove it and did they de-carbon the other cylinder?

peter '73 R75/5, '04 R1150RA

[flat_twin]

Weegie, Which Cleveland dealer are you working with, Sills or BMW of Cleveland?

[Weegie]

working with All Seasons out of wooster.I have several friends who have been loyal to them for years.I do know thay have had a big turnover in service people as of the last year.No mention at all about carbon build up .They said only the right side exhaust was damaged and they had never seen this before.I do have the valve and there is a piece missing about the size of a dime and shaped like a triangle and was definately burned away.I do know that there seems to be a problem with right side valves based on info from other riders and cycle world mag.I find it kind of ironic on the new R1200RT they went to a 2 plug per cyl.and an oxygen sensor for each cyl.But they have no problem...Wink, All seems ok for now ! but I am watching her closely

[SAAB93driver]

working with All Seasons out of wooster.I have several friends who have been loyal to them for years.I do know thay have had a big turnover in service people as of the last year.No mention at all about carbon build up .They said only the right side exhaust was damaged and they had never seen this before.I do have the valve and there is a piece missing about the size of a dime and shaped like a triangle and was definately burned away.I do know that there seems to be a problem with right side valves based on info from other riders and cycle world mag.I find it kind of ironic on the new R1200RT they went to a 2 plug per cyl.and an oxygen sensor for each cyl.But they have no problem...Wink, All seems ok for now ! but I am watching her closely

 

All 2 pluggers, even the 1150 dual spark, has sodium filled exhuast valves to keep the valves cooler.

[BobFV1]

They should not meet you half way. They should eat the entire cost. On a bike with so few miles this should be a warranty issue. Also since they did the work they should stand behind it. Sure it could have been caused by a bit of carbon but I doubt it.

 

I agree with Dawg - no way I would eat this!

 

I don't think that going to a TV consumer reporter would be productive - remember that all motorcyclists are generally considered to be out of the mainstream and unlikely to attract public sympathy.

[motorman587]

We had a cop bike blow a valve, with 18000 miles on it. Just happened too, no warning signs. No warranty either. Dealer talked with BMWNA, but no dice. We blamed on the city fuel. When we first got the BMW we were using high grade fuel at gas station, we did this with the Harley's we had. For some reason they took the gas station away and started using city gas, which all city vehicles use. We call it nasty gas. The Harley's ran really bad on it, but the BMW not so bad. I put some techron to clean it out ever so often.

[Weegie]

I don't know if fuel was an issue or not.I do run 92 octane and it runs much better than the 89 I tried for a couple of tanks when I first bought the bike.I really enjoy the ride and hope its just an isolated case. My harley friends have been brutal on me lately.I had a Gold wing just before my RT and it also left me on the side of the road 70mi.from home, with a stator /rectifier problem.Not that I haven't deserved the abuse,because I sure abuse them when their bike is down.But right now I'm the target and rightfully so!!!!.spring is coming soon and time will tell if all is well...............ride on