Where did this come from...

[Twisties]

...and where is it going? What does it mean?

 

Rouslan Toumaniantz is the tattoo artist recently in the news for putting 56 stars on Kimberley Vlaminck's face.

[Dave McReynolds]

It would probably be a career limiting move if you wanted to be a CPA.

[ltljohn]

What made her think that that guy wouldn't get carried away???

[Tony_K]

I saw a girl get some totally crappy "indian feathers" tattooed on her face from her left eye down her entire cheek. It was her FIRST tattoo!!!! Great way to enter into your 20's!!! Ahh, stupid youth...

 

Done by a hack at home, novice, newbie... She was also "impared" via some "substances" nice.

 

 

[Twisties]

Yeah, but look at Rouslan Toumaniantz's pic, and tell me why. Why are so many getting into body modification, extensive body art, and bling?

 

Why, and where is it going? What does it mean, if anything?

[Jerry_75_Guy]

I think Miss Vlaminck got off easy.

 

I friend once sent me some pics of a gentleman who had all of his...um... shall we say 'necessary equipment', every square millimeter there of, tattooed such that when he was, well, 'happy', it would be a dragon in flight.

 

Like pics of a car crash, the images are difficult to push from my minds eye.

I really wish he hadn't sent those pics

[David]

I'd think it's motivated by some individualism and a touch of anti-establishment sentiment.

[Albert]

Why, and where is it going? What does it mean, if anything?

 

It's going to the airport . . . and it's going to be a long wait at the metal detector.

[Tony_K]

Yeah, but look at Rouslan Toumaniantz's pic, and tell me why. Why are so many getting into body modification, extensive body art, and bling?

 

Why, and where is it going? What does it mean, if anything?

 

 

DIFFERENT...just like everyone else.

 

I've seen bod mods remove fingers and toes at joints for a diffent aesthetic...

 

The body is just a vehicle right?...........

[Redbrick]

Yeah, but look at Rouslan Toumaniantz's pic, and tell me why. Why are so many getting into body modification, extensive body art, and bling?

 

Why, and where is it going? What does it mean, if anything?

 

I'm with you Jan.......Much of what's going on in the world absolutely baffles me and for this guy to make his face into the scariest monster in a maniac's worst nightmare is unfathonable....Wierd body piercings and gross tatoos in normally visibly parts of the body immediately place that person in some (fill in the blank) category with whomever they meet or interact with and definately limits life opportunities and choices........And he can't just take off a mask; it's permanent...How does one aparently make that drastic a decision so easily?

[Matts_12GS]

Might as well ask why do you ride motorcycles?

 

People do stuff because they CHOOSE to, and I'm going to join in with the "trying to express themselves" crowd. It's maybe not a great thing to do from YOUR (or even my) point of view, but, that's the cost of adulthood and responsibility.

 

Besides, no matter what the state of the economy, somebody has to make the French Fries and those two may just be destined for that life.

 

 

[KevinH]

Sign Sign everywhere a sign. Blocking out the scenery breaking my mind. Do this, don't do that, can't you read the sign.

[Jerry_75_Guy]

The body is just a vehicle right?...........

 

Yep.

 

Never confuse the lantern with the light.

 

Despite being a bit squeamish about some of it myself, and our culture's ambivalence about all of it, I have to remind myself that it's important not to judge too quickly (if at all). These practices arn't too different from other appearance choices we all make; they are just harder to change if they want to reverse the process and go back towards 'square one' again later.

[Tony_K]

In many ways the West is just now embracing ancient and primitive cultures. At least that is the base motivator for some. Others are followers of trends.

 

Fakir Musafar is a PRIME example of the movement. At 79 years old he is the grandfather of body modification. Though I guarantee 99% of those imparting have no idea who he is.

 

Where is it going... well like most things... it goes until it ends.

[Twisties]

Yeah, but look at Rouslan Toumaniantz's pic, and tell me why. Why are so many getting into body modification, extensive body art, and bling?

 

Why, and where is it going? What does it mean, if anything?

 

I'm with you Jan.......Much of what's going on in the world absolutely baffles me and for this guy to make his face into the scariest monster in a maniac's worst nightmare is unfathonable....Wierd body piercings and gross tatoos in normally visibly parts of the body immediately place that person in some (fill in the blank) category with whomever they meet or interact with and definately limits life opportunities and choices........And he can't just take off a mask; it's permanent...How does one aparently make that drastic a decision so easily?

 

I'm not sure I see him as a scary monster. I was trying to be neutral in my presentation of the question. I am however baffled. In reply to KevinH, no, I can't read the sign. I guess that's what I find so compelling.

 

Yeah, I have seen the angry Goth with lip bling and an eyebrow that looks pinched. I don't have too much question about what that means. Yet, I am seeing a number of folk now that seem very intelligent, very kind and urbane in many ways, and yet sport these affects. This fellow strikes me more that way. I find it enigmatic.

[Dave McReynolds]

Speaking of body enhancements, how about breast implants? I think there are quite a few women who have had second thoughts about them. Sometimes maybe last thoughts, as the suicide rate among those who have had breast enhancements is quite a bit higher than among those who haven't. I wonder if there is any difference in the suicide rate among those who have had extemely visable tattoos and piercings? Unless you are a member of a culture where such things are the norm, e.g. Maori, I would think disfiguring your body in ways you know most people will find distasteful has to reflect a poor self-image. Maybe the equivalent would be a Maori getting a large visable tattoo of Donald Duck?

[Twisties]

Sometimes maybe last thoughts, as the suicide rate among those who have had breast enhancements is quite a bit higher than among those who haven't.

 

Are there studies that separate cause and effect in these populations, e.g. are suicidal people more likely to have breast enahncements, or do breast enhancements cause suicide? I've also been told that BE leads to increased divorce rates. Same questions there.

 

I think the point about cultural norms, and how these people expect to be perceived is interesting. I wish I knew more about it. One thing, I suspect that the perception, and the expectation of perception within a certain peer group segment is quite different than within the general population, and particularly the older population.

[Matts_12GS]

Yet, I am seeing a number of folk now that seem very intelligent, very kind and urbane in many ways, and yet sport these affects. This fellow strikes me more that way. I find it enigmatic.

 

 

So, because YOU don't understand it you question THEIR intelligence? Intelligence and body modification is not mutually exclusive, and that you would state this that way is especially offensive whether that was your intention or not.

 

Where's the tolerance and acceptance of others?

[Dave McReynolds]

Are there studies that separate cause and effect in these populations, e.g. are suicidal people more likely to have breast enahncements, or do breast enhancements cause suicide?

 

I don't know of any studies, but I don't believe suicide is event driven, except in extreme cases, like being on the 100th floor of the WTC as the flames head toward you. Suicidal people are miserably unhappy with their lives. If they believe something like breast implants might lift that unhappiness, they might give it a try, and when they find out that it doesn't, they might commit suicide. Of course, all women who have breast implants aren't suicidal, but I can see how it would attract some of those who are.

 

The outward motivation for breast implants and tattoos/piercings would seem to be different: breasts are beautiful, whereas tattoos and piercings are not (unless, of course, it is a cool USMC tattoo like I have). But if the underlying motivation is to escape a life that is not desired, and if it turns out that there is no escape possible, the results might be the same.

[Twisties]

Yet, I am seeing a number of folk now that seem very intelligent, very kind and urbane in many ways, and yet sport these affects. This fellow strikes me more that way. I find it enigmatic.

 

 

So, because YOU don't understand it you question THEIR intelligence? Intelligence and body modification is not mutually exclusive, and that you would state this that way is especially offensive whether that was your intention or not.

 

Where's the tolerance and acceptance of others?

 

Read it again Matt.

[Kathy R]

Are there studies that separate cause and effect in these populations, e.g. are suicidal people more likely to have breast enahncements, or do breast enhancements cause suicide?

 

I don't know of any studies, but I don't believe suicide is event driven, except in extreme cases, like being on the 100th floor of the WTC as the flames head toward you. Suicidal people are miserably unhappy with their lives. If they believe something like breast implants might lift that unhappiness, they might give it a try, and when they find out that it doesn't, they might commit suicide. Of course, all women who have breast implants aren't suicidal, but I can see how it would attract some of those who are.

 

The outward motivation for breast implants and tattoos/piercings would seem to be different: breasts are beautiful, whereas tattoos and piercings are not (unless, of course, it is a cool USMC tattoo like I have). But if the underlying motivation is to escape a life that is not desired, and if it turns out that there is no escape possible, the results might be the same.

 

Dave dear,

Please stick with penile implants and leave this portion of breast implant motivation to women or some kind of actual verifiable studies.

 

continue: good discussion

[Dave McReynolds]

Please stick with penile implants and leave this portion of breast implant motivation to women

 

Uhhh....as a representative of that sex, would you care to give us your view as to why suicide rates are higher among those who have had breast implants, and whether that would lead you would expect an elevated suicide rate among those with extreme tattoos or piercings?

[AZKomet]

Hmmmmm.... no comment.

[SeanC]

I'd think it's motivated by some individualism and a touch of anti-establishment sentiment.

 

But isn't it kind of odd that for this guy, the body mods indicate almost the exact opposite....

 

 

(whereas that iPod would most likely be a striking display of individualism in his culture)

 

Anyway, I don't know what drives it. It also seems like the people I've met who've had "extreme" piercings and tattoos were otherwise introverts. There's something interesting about that....

[Twisties]

What culture is that Sean?

 

Edit: Oh, and how do they eat?

[SeanC]

The photo info from the blog where I found it claimed it was the Mursi tribe of Africa.

 

 

[Whip]

I'd think it's motivated by........a touch of anti-establishment sentiment.

 

 

I may get a tat.....

[Quinn]

Now that tattoos and piercings are becoming more acceptable, people seem to be going further and further out to get the desired attention.

 

As an old man who life is passing by, I just figure that people do these kind of things for the same reason dogs roll in crap. They can't compete on the normal dog level so they're trying to hide their scent and be something other than a failed dog.

 

 

[E30TECH]

I'd think it's motivated by........a touch of anti-establishment sentiment.

 

 

I may get a tat.....

 

I said the same thing, as I reached out, she smacked me

[DonB]

Things like this make me happy. When I am looking for a job and this goober walks in at the same time for the same job, I think I will have the advantage.

[tallman]

It didn't come from anywhere, it's been here and there and everywhere.

Equating appearance with motivation, intelligence, vocational skills et al is a very dangerous slippery slope that has more exceptions than rules.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

 

That guy is screwed if that little strap of lip ever breaks/tears. Then he can't hold his lip plate in place.

 

Which means he would look weird.

[Kathy R]

Please stick with penile implants and leave this portion of breast implant motivation to women

 

Uhhh....as a representative of that sex, would you care to give us your view as to why suicide rates are higher among those who have had breast implants, and whether that would lead you would expect an elevated suicide rate among those with extreme tattoos or piercings?

 

to quote myself fully

Please stick with penile implants and leave this portion of breast implant motivation to women or some kind of actual verifiable studies

 

I think implants, ink, and piercings are examples of cultural ideals. They are manifestations of cultural methods to form sex appeal. Perhaps there is a higher percentage of suicide because there is a higher concentration of folks who are trying harder, seeking something, and they are, in general, on a precipice.

 

But, I like it when someone has stats and then I don't have to think

 

 

 

 

[Dave McReynolds]

Thanks Kathy, I think your views are much more insightful than mine could ever be on this subject (no joke) and we could probably get a hundred responses before a man would suggest that the thing that implants, ink, and piercings have in common are that they are manifestations of cultural methods to form sex appeal.

[tallman]

Implants, increase suicide rate 3x.

Tats and BP's...

 

Studies show a greater likelihood of risk taking behaviors, with the age one begins the behavior being important.

More likely to engage in sexual behaviors, be violent, commit crime, consider suicide, commit suicide.

 

Is it BDD?

What Is Body Dysmorphic Disorder?

Body dysmorphic disorder (once called dysmophophobia) is considered by some doctors to be a variation on obsessive compulsive disorder. It involves a severe preoccupation with minor or imaginary flaws. The preoccupation leads to anxiety and stress to such a great degree that the sufferer is unable to function normally. For mild cases, the sufferer may still be able to leave home and work, but in more serious cases, the sufferer will be unable to work or socialize. If the preoccupation becomes extreme, the sufferer may commit suicide.

 

Many sufferers will use cosmetic surgery to “fix” their flaws, but the surgeries, regardless of how successful they are, do not make the sufferer happy. Instead, the sufferer will either find a new flaw to focus on or will be convinced that the original flaw is either made worse or not fixed.

 

The connection is made to individuals who use extreme tattooing, piercing, and body modification because many of the people who choose this route will say they do so because it feels like it should be there, or that it belongs there. They will often imagine that what they are doing is fixing something, or adding something that is missing. These reasons make some doctors feel that those people are suffering from a variation of body dysmorphic disorder

 

Women who get cosmetic breast implants are nearly three times as likely to commit suicide as other women, U.S. researchers reported on Wednesday.

http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNews/idUSN0836919020070808?feedType=RSS&rpc=22&sp=true

 

Conclusions

1. Clinically, body piercing may serve as a marker for higher levels of peer substance use and potential problem behavior.

http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S1054139X03002763

 

While in recent years body modification has been more socially acceptable for a tattoo or two and maybe a selected piercing (of the belly button for example) there is still a stigma associated with those having body art. A 2003 Harris Poll shows that approximately 16% of Americans have one or more tattoos. This is a three-fold rise from a 1936 Life Magazine poll. It is estimated that 36% of those between the ages of 25-29 have had a tattoo. More body modifications seem to occur on the West Coast of the United States than the East and it is highest amongst gays, lesbians and bisexual populations. According to an online survey the average number of tattoos for a male subject is three to four. It seems as if after one tattoo, most people return for another. The same can be said for piercings and scarification.

1. Dr. David Lester, Ph.D. professor of psychology at Richard Stockton College in Pomona NJ (and a suicidologist with the Center for the Study of Suicide) in a recent presentation to peers on the subject showed a strong link between body modification and suicide. In Dr. Lester’s study only 34% of some 4,700 individuals who responded to an online survey on a hard-core body modification web site admitted to not considering suicide. Two-thirds had suicidal ideation at one time or another or attempted suicide. Thirty-nine percent admitted that they only contemplated suicide while 27% stated that they made one or more attempts. The survey also identified participants by sexual preference. Fifty-six percent were heterosexual, 38% bisexual and 5% homosexual. Eighty-eight percent were white and 45% were students. Most survey participants had a medial age of 21 years.

http://www.jivemagazine.com/column.php?pid=3849

 

Chart

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content-nw/full/109/6/1021/F1

 

The findings of this study may impact the general perception of adolescents. The results show that the presence of tattoos and body piercings in adolescents is associated with greater risk-taking behaviors of these adolescents in the areas of gateway drug use, hard drug use, sexual activity, suicide, and disordered eating behaviors. In particular, young adolescents with tattoos and body piercings are at greater risk for suicide and cigarette, alcohol, and marijuana use. Violence is found to a greater degree in males with tattoos and females with body piercings. Finally, abuse of hard drugs such as cocaine, crystal methamphetamine, and Ecstasy increases as the number of body piercings increases

 

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/109/6/1021?referer=www.clickfind.com.au

[Matts_12GS]

Yet, I am seeing a number of folk now that seem very intelligent, very kind and urbane in many ways, and yet sport these affects. This fellow strikes me more that way. I find it enigmatic.

 

 

So, because YOU don't understand it you question THEIR intelligence? Intelligence and body modification is not mutually exclusive, and that you would state this that way is especially offensive whether that was your intention or not.

 

Where's the tolerance and acceptance of others?

 

Read it again Matt.

 

My take of what you wrote is what I spoke to.

You admit to being baffled by it, the speak of how otherwise intelligent, kind and urbane folks have mods.

 

Other than the snarky tolerance comment, I'll stand by what I wrote.

[DavidEBSmith]

Implants, increase suicide rate 3x.

Tats and BP's...

 

 

I think you need to be careful of finding causality from connection.

 

Getting implants or tats may be associated with suicide and risk taking but may not be the cause. Indeed, it's not too unreasonable to believe that somebody with serious underlying personality issues would be attracted to and more likely to engage in body modification. But the body modification is a result, not a cause, of the underlying disorder.

 

[Jake]

I'd think it's motivated by some individualism and a touch of anti-establishment sentiment.

 

Or alcohol, a trip to Key West, and a dare from your daughter...

[tallman]

Implants, increase suicide rate 3x.

Tats and BP's...

 

 

I think you need to be careful of finding causality from connection.

 

Getting implants or tats may be associated with suicide and risk taking but may not be the cause. Indeed, it's not too unreasonable to believe that somebody with serious underlying personality issues would be attracted to and more likely to engage in body modification. But the body modification is a result, not a cause, of the underlying disorder.

 

Not me, that's why I linked the studies.

The studies very carefully point out the difs between studies done w/dif populations.

But, even w/the disclaimers, there is a definite relationship between age, tats, BP's, and increased risk taking.

W/some the suicidal ideation is very prominent.

 

Remember, my first post was about the slippery slope of judging a book by its cover.

In some cases though, what you see is what you get.

[Twisties]

From Dan Brown's "The Lost Symbol", beginning of Chapter 2:

 

The goal of tattooing was never beauty. The goal was change. From the scarified Nubian priests of 2000 B.C., to the tattooed acolytes of the Cybele cult of ancient Rome, to the moko scars of the modern Maori, humans have tattooed themselves as a way of offering up their bodies in partial sacrifice, enduring the physical pain of embellishment and emerging changed beings.

 

Despite the ominous admonitions of Leviticus 19:28, which forbade the marking of one's flesh, tattoos had become a rite of passage shared by millions of people in the modern age--everyone from clean-cut teenagers to hard-core drug users to suburban housewives.

 

The act of tattooing one's skin was a transformative declaration of power, an announcement to the world: I am in control of my own flesh. The intoxicating feeling of control derived from physical transformation had addicted millions to flesh altering practices... cosmetic surgery, body piercing, bodybuilding, and steroids... even bulimia and transgendering. The human spirit craves mastery over its carnal shell.

 

I found this passage to be quite fascinating, even profound. Especially the last sentence which relates so many forms of body modification.

 

To some extent, I suppose in modern Western society the idea that body modification is associated with trying to "fix" what's wrong with one, as Tim points out, gives even more weight to the idea that the goal is change.

 

 

[AviP]

Yeah, but look at Rouslan Toumaniantz's pic, and tell me why. Why are so many getting into body modification, extensive body art, and bling?

 

Why, and where is it going? What does it mean, if anything?

He wants to stand out and he does. She wants to be a star and she is!

 

Just because they are culturally different doesn't necessarily make them bad or that the world is going to hell. That statement should be reserved for Nazis, white supremacists, racists in general. Remember we live in a world with breast implants, penis enlargements and vaginal plastic surgery.

 

It almost makes these old-fashioned Ugandans seem normal with clitoral circumcision. Of course, they are doing it to somebody else and not themselves but there's weird stuff everywhere. There's an interesting National Geographic program called Taboo that highlights strange customs to the western world but that don't seem strange at all to the locals.

 

[Allen Rowand]

...and where is it going? What does it mean?

Where is it going? Farther.

What does it mean? Rebellion. A desire to be different than our parents. To stand out in a sea of conformity.

 

Every generation does it; it's just gotten more extreme. I'd like to see the next generation be clean cut, to rebel against their parents with the tattoos and earlobes that are stretched. By then, microelectronics should have progressed to the point of making for some very interesting implants…

 

What do I know- I'm just a guy with over 60 tattoos that used to have 17 earrings, 5 noserings and a few other pieces of metal through my face. I wish I had photos to show my wife…

[upflying]

facial body art is definitely a plus at a job interview

[pbharvey]

...and where is it going? What does it mean?

 

Rouslan Toumaniantz is the tattoo artist recently in the news for putting 56 stars on Kimberley Vlaminck's face.

 

I bet you his dad never took him fishing.

I bet you her dad never told her she was beautiful.

[Jerry Johnston]

 

That guy is screwed if that little strap of lip ever breaks/tears. Then he can't hold his lip plate in place.

 

Which means he would look weird.

 

And he doesn't already ?

[Agent_Orange]

And just who is gonna tell him he looks funny? Me thinks that AK will keep the peanut gallery in their seats.