Ridiculous False Security of Conspicuity

[David]

If you want to utilize reflective gear, plaster your sidecases with reflective vinyl, and put four sets of lights in each direction, have at it. It can't hurt, as long as it doesn't piss off other motorists.

 

But to the extent that you think they do one whit of good, you're a dead man riding and they're hurting you more than helping you.

 

The same goes for laws about no-texting, no calls without headsets, etc.

 

Last night there was a patrol car pulled way off the shoulder on the local interstate, all the lights flashing, behind another car getting a ticket or whatever.

 

Some girl plowed into the back of the patrol car, injured the officer, and then the pile of two cars ran into the car that had been pulled over. In other words, she likely hit the officer's car at full speed.

 

We have a law that requires a car to move over one lane to the left and we have a law that forbids texting.

 

She was reading a text when she hit the officer's car.

 

Legislation and conspicuity have absolutely no effect on drivers who are likely to hit you.

 

And legislation and conspicuity have virtually no effect on those who are unlikely to hit you.

 

IMHO.

[Lawman]

David,

The only thing I know of that is 100% effective 100% of the time is capital punishment..

[Jerry_75_Guy]

David,

The only thing I know of that is 100% effective 100% of the time is capital punishment..

 

Only if they get the right 'perp', which, in my unschooled opinion is most, but not all the time.

[SageRider]

David,

The only thing I know of that is 100% effective 100% of the time is capital punishment..

 

Only if they get the right 'perp', which, in my unschooled opinion is most, but not all the time.

The wrong 'perp' was probably guilty of something anyway.....

[JayW]

The fastest horses don't always win....but you should still bet on them.

 

Jay

[smiller]

The wrong 'perp' was probably guilty of something anyway.....

In so many cases that statement has proven to be completely wrong.

 

(David must love how his thread has turned to a discussion of capital punishment in only five posts... )

[SageRider]

The wrong 'perp' was probably guilty of something anyway.....

In so many cases that statement has proven to be completely wrong.

 

(David must love how his thread has turned to a discussion of capital punishment in only five posts... )

In which case the 'perp' was guilty of being innocent...

 

Hi David

[tallman]

David,

While I agree in priciple as I've had people pull out in front of a school bus I was driving w/lights flashing, and apparently one of the ambulances I was a passenger in, I'm not sure I accept the statement

"But to the extent that you think they do one whit of good, you're a dead man riding and they're hurting you more than helping you."

 

I know through direct commentary that drivers have commented on noticing driving lights and therefor not pulling out in front of me.

I've had people come into the dealership looking for hiviz jackets because they "saw it from so far away they wanted to get one to be more noticeable".

I agree that for some drivers there is nothing that will change their behavior and we arre at risk around them.

But I believe that for other drivers there are times they notice us and may even modify their driving in the future based on anecdotal exeriences and comments from them.

There is a difference between a texting, nonthinking, stupid driver who doesn't give their brain a chance to see what is around them and other drivers who are "seeing" things because they are trying to become better and safer drivers.

I would go so far as to say that for some riders it soesn't matter what the danger is, they fixate on the target and manage to run off the road, side of mountain, into the tree, hit the SUV, or whatever, so the analogy fits both groups.

Thanks for the reminder.

Best wishes.

[smiller]

Sometimes attempts at additional conspicuity can backfire, such as the all-too-common use of high beams at all times. I used to do this until I noticed that the glare from other motorcyclists doing the same thing really did nothing but make it more difficult for me to judge their position and closing speed... and if that's the perception of someone with 35 years riding experience imagine the response of that mini-van driver deciding whether to pull out.

 

As David noted excessively bright lights guarantee you nothing, and IMO may well increase your exposure rather than 'protect' you.

[David]

David must love how his thread has turned to a discussion of capital punishment in only five posts...

 

It seems like most of the threads I start are doomed to that fate. It must be because people love me.

[ShovelStrokeEd]

My only gripe with conspicuity is if it carries with it the mind set of "I am conspicuous therefore I will be seen". Just ain't true bunky. I will agree that it helps alert drivers see you sooner but, alert drivers are not the enemy here. It is the brain dead morons who, if they are looking out their windscreen at all, aren't seeing much more than the alignment of their hood ornament with the roadway.

 

12' tall, 30 foot long, florescent green pumper truck running code with flashers, whooper, strobes and a loud friggin bell. I witnessed a carload of geezers drive right into the side of it. They were turning left into an intersection. How the f***K do you not see that?

[pokorskij]

Not trying to defend the girl, but a while ago I read about studies that indicated the newer led flashing lights on police vehicles at night can cause problems for some individuals. The end result is that they drive right into the police vehicle. I believe it is similar to the problem that some individuals have with computer games on tv screens. The unnoticed flashing that does not bother most individuals causes problems for a small minority. It might be related to epilepsy.

 

No matter what you wear, or hang on the bike or any vehicle, the old advice to ride/drive like you are invisible will always hold true. And I would agree anyone who relies on hi viz or lights etc. is not riding under the safest conditions.

[Ken H.]

I’m not so sure I’d go so far as to say none of it does a whit of good, the problem is we just don’t know when it will and when it won’t. So we must, must, must always ride as if it doesn’t do a whit of good. That way when it does, we’ve just improved our odds on the roads, and when it doesn’t we haven’t decreased them.

 

(Now back to your regularly scheduled capital punishment thread.)

[E30TECH]

David,

The only thing I know of that is 100% effective 100% of the time is capital punishment..

 

Only if they get the right 'perp', which, in my unschooled opinion is most, but not all the time.

The wrong 'perp' was probably guilty of something anyway.....

 

 

Is stupidity a crime that is punishable by capital punishment?

[New2Wheeler]

I'm a newbie, and ride like a canary. I figure that any advantage is in my favor. But I remind myself on every ride...." Your invisible, Matt". What I hear you saying is...when they are not looking, Hyvis doesn't helps... at that point, it comes down to, position, reaction, control and a little luck I guess .

[ghaverkamp]

If the patrol car's modulated headlights had been pointed to the rear, none of this would have occurred.

[Matts_12GS]

Is stupidity a crime that is punishable by capital punishment?

 

I can only hope that someday it will be.

 

 

And that my punishment is swift!

[johnlt]

Knowing you at least a little David, I’m sure you are just trying to “stir the pot” and get a little action going. That said however, your argument would suggest that stop lights are of absolute NO VALUE. I’m sure there are diminishing returns, but conspicuity is relevant but the “successes are always silent. Only the failures warrant news. Kind of like the CIA. Oh sh**, I may have started another thread!!

[padiii]

I read about studies that indicated the newer led flashing lights on police vehicles at night can cause problems for some individuals. The end result is that they drive right into the police vehicle.

 

Quick hijack....I for one can't see at night with the LEDs! A couple of weeks ago two police cars had someone pulled over in my plan of homes. I had to use one hand to shield my eyes as I was slowly driving past of cars. And a young cop yells at me to keep moving! Hell, I couldn't see...if going any faster I could have easily hit someone if they were standing on the roadway! Perhaps even an officer!!!! To me it seems the blue lights are almost so hot they appear blue then white then blue.

 

 

[David]

Knowing you at least a little David, I’m sure you are just trying to “stir the pot” and get a little action going. That said however, your argument would suggest that stop lights are of absolute NO VALUE.

 

Correct. They are of no value...unless the person is looking. If the person isn't looking, they are worthless. For evidence, look at the thousands of red lights run every day.

[AZKomet]

If the patrol car's modulated headlights had been pointed to the rear, none of this would have occurred.

 

 

Greg...WTF are you talking about?????

 

Clue me in cuz I am sooooo confuuuuuuuuuusssssed!!!!!

[bmwsit]

So a girl who is reading a text and not looking where she is going hits a patrol car. Seems like she would have hit it whether it had lights on or not.

 

 

I figure any reflective items on me or my bike can only help. I still ride like I am invisible though.

[Paul In Australia]

If you want to utilize reflective gear, plaster your sidecases with reflective vinyl, and put four sets of lights in each direction, have at it. It can't hurt, as long as it doesn't piss off other motorists.

 

But to the extent that you think they do one whit of good, you're a dead man riding and they're hurting you more than helping you.

 

 

Hi

 

I am afraid that the above statement is just not true. Sure IT WONT STOP an INATTENTIVE DRIVER but it show you up to one who is receptive to seeing you. There is just a mountain of evidence in Europe and the US that shows HI VIZ equipment ( GEAR) makes you conspicuious. Examples such as all road workers in Australia LEO's in Europe, child crossing attendants and the list goes on an on.

The argument it doesn't work is not correct, it just doesn't stop all issues , such as the text messenger.

The major reasons people argue AGAINST Hi VIZ is one of fashion and an ego.

 

If you can cut out some of the risk by being more visible , it OBVIOUSLY is a good idea.

 

regards

[John Bentall]

David,

 

I agree totally with where you're coming from but not the way you chose to express it.

Hi-Viz will have a beneficial effet on good drivers who look and see where they are going, but no effect whatsoever on the bad driver who is not looking and not seeing.

I agree with "it can't hurt"

I also agree that it really upsetting when folks text etc while driving. One has distinct feeling of mortality and that "one's number" might be on the next vehicle.

 

John

[SWB]

Complacency kills.

 

The most likely riders to be complacent: the experienced one's who know better, but who just feel so "comfortable" with their ride, their route, their area. I won't brag on experience on this forum , but I fit the rest of the bill.

 

I ride to work most days, anywhere from 30 to 60 miles each way. I've always said that the thing I like most about riding to work is that "riding safely" for me in an urban environment is an intense experience. I need to stay alert and concentrate from beginning to end. It's not that I'm "nervous" - I can really enjoy the ride and smell the roses (or whatever else I'm passing along the California coast), but I AM not thinking about work, home, family -anything, except the ride. It "clears the mechanism".

 

Recently, I've been under a bit of pressure and have caught my mind wandering on the way to work, before I kicked myself in the a** and got back on track. It's a killer. I'm convinced I can't listen to the radio, or music, or get lost in thought, and survive a California commute.

 

** You've just GOT TO see them because they won't see you. **

 

I gather David is just reminding us all to keep our heads in the game, not to rely on gizmo's or farkles or clothing to keep us visible (though the old RT-P black and white used to help just a bit !).

 

As far as the direct, "rear end" scenario, I take extreme proactive steps to avoid that, because a high speed rear end has almost happened a half-dozen times to me (i.e. missed by a split second due to an evasive maneuver), and I've been hit with low-speed rear ends twice. I always position myself at a stop with my mirror on my rear, and my front tire pointed to an escape route. I took a right turn today instead of a left turn and added 5 minutes to my trip because the left turn lane was over-flowed, and stopping there would have left me at the tail end of cars with 55 MPH traffic approaching me from behind.

 

Complacency - MAN!

 

On the way to work today, less than a half mile from the house as I was still mentally "gearing up" and going through my check list, I nearly lost the front end in a "known" crummy stretch of poorly serviced road. The PR2's on this R1200RT stick like nothing I've had before, and though I'm careful through that stretch and hadn't really tilted into the turn (hence, probably the only reason I didn't go down ), I WAS complacent in that turn, in that area, with my ride, with my bike.

 

Nothing else to say but ...

... and gear up for tomorrow.

 

Safe riding all.

 

- Scott

[johnlt]

Correct. They are of no value...unless the person is looking. If the person isn't looking, they are worthless. For evidence, look at the thousands of red lights run every day.

 

I say again, the "successes of conspicuity are silent. You only hear about the failures.

[Quinn]

Using the same argument, I shouldn't lock my doors when I leave the house. The honest people won't break in and the dishonest ones will do so anyway. How about not wearing a seatbelt because they don't stop all auto deaths? Should I disable my ABS lest I grow to depend on it to stop all collisions?

 

Just to be making up numbers, let's say that hiVis and headlights prevent 70 percent of accidents. The problem is that you never know when that car at the end of their driveway is a 30 percenter with his cellphone plastered on the side of his head blocking his view. Doesn't mean I shouldn't take steps to weed out the 70 percenters; just that it's not a panacea that can be universally applied to prevent everything.

 

I think the real danger for people is getting on a motorcycle while still carrying their SUV mentality with them. You see and hear it all the time. Bikers who demand their right of way, can't imagine not being seen, bulge over their lane while riding in formation, etc. Just like they were still in their Lincoln Navigator and a king of the road street bully.

 

 

 

 

[Boffin]

Using the same argument, I shouldn't lock my doors when I leave the house. The honest people won't break in and the dishonest ones will do so anyway. How about not wearing a seatbelt because they don't stop all auto deaths? Should I disable my ABS lest I grow to depend on it to stop all collisions?

 

 

 

As I read it, that is not David's argument. To paraphrase yourself,

"I shouldn't expect locked doors to stop a break-in"

 

Use conspicuity aids, just do not let them give you a sense of security.

 

Andy

[David]

David,

 

I agree totally with where you're coming from but not the way you chose to express it.

Hi-Viz will have a beneficial effet on good drivers who look and see where they are going, but no effect whatsoever on the bad driver who is not looking and not seeing.

 

Uh, that's exactly what I said, John. What am I missing?

[David]

Using the same argument, I shouldn't lock my doors when I leave the house. The honest people won't break in and the dishonest ones will do so anyway. How about not wearing a seatbelt because they don't stop all auto deaths? Should I disable my ABS lest I grow to depend on it to stop all collisions?

 

 

 

As I read it, that is not David's argument. To paraphrase yourself,

"I shouldn't expect locked doors to stop a break-in"

 

Use conspicuity aids, just do not let them give you a sense of security.

 

Andy

 

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.

[SWB]

David,

 

I agree totally with where you're coming from but not the way you chose to express it.

Hi-Viz will have a beneficial effet on good drivers who look and see where they are going, but no effect whatsoever on the bad driver who is not looking and not seeing.

 

Uh, that's exactly what I said, John. What am I missing?

 

 

We're all just bored.

 

When winter is over, we'll all be riding. (Oh... it is? Dang, with the low temps all over, how are we supposed to know it's summer and we're all supposed to be riding now?!)

[Vicious_Cycler]

David must love how his thread has turned to a discussion of capital punishment in only five posts...

 

It seems like most of the threads I start are doomed to that fate. It must be because people love me.

 

David, some of us just like thinking of punishment (capital or otherwise) and you in the same thought!

[David]

I know, I know. I you live close enough to carry out that threat!

[Vicious_Cycler]

Actually, I heard we may soon be able to pickup some slightly used waterboards pretty cheap .

[Vicious_Cycler]

But seriously, your OP point is well taken. There is no substitute for your own vigilance in staying safe on a motorbike.

[DavidEBSmith]

David,

 

I agree totally with where you're coming from but not the way you chose to express it.

Hi-Viz will have a beneficial effet on good drivers who look and see where they are going, but no effect whatsoever on the bad driver who is not looking and not seeing.

 

Uh, that's exactly what I said, John. What am I missing?

 

You're missing that it took him two sentences to say what it took you a whole paragraph to say and 4 pages of replies for people to decipher, Mr. Communicator Guy.

[EffBee]

As one who sells pre-cut reflective kits, I've often wondered how much good they do. Have we saved a life? Saved several? Countless injuries? The truth is, we don't know. We never get a call from either the rider or the motorist who says, "if not for your product, I would have killed/been killed."

 

We take it on faith that making ourselves more conspicuous, helps make us more easily seen, and therefore our presence at least acknowledged on the road. Just as parents take it on faith that their words of warning about smoking, pre-marital sex, drugs, will keep their kids on the straight and narrow. Kids rarely come home from a party and say, "Dad, Mom, if not for the talks you've had with me, I would have done drugs and probably gotten pregnant tonight." But we see them daily, going about the business of living, and we know that whether it's us, or whether it's all of the input they receive, they're doing something right and it's protecting them.

 

It's virtually non-quantifiable, David. Like some things in life, it's a matter of faith.

[David]

David,

 

I agree totally with where you're coming from but not the way you chose to express it.

Hi-Viz will have a beneficial effet on good drivers who look and see where they are going, but no effect whatsoever on the bad driver who is not looking and not seeing.

 

Uh, that's exactly what I said, John. What am I missing?

 

You're missing that it took him two sentences to say what it took you a whole paragraph to say and 4 pages of replies for people to decipher, Mr. Communicator Guy.

 

Touché. I like getting paid by the word, though. There's no money to be made in brevity.

[David]

Just as parents take it on faith that their words of warning about smoking, pre-marital sex, drugs, will keep their kids on the straight and narrow. Kids rarely come home from a party and say, "Dad, Mom, if not for the talks you've had with me, I would have done drugs and probably gotten pregnant tonight." But we see them daily, going about the business of living, and we know that whether it's us, or whether it's all of the input they receive, they're doing something right and it's protecting them.

 

Unfortunately, there's actually a higher incidence of pre-marital sex among the group that pledges abstinence, I believe. So their parents have a false sense of security. Sort of my point.

 

Anyway, I'm fine taking some things by faith, but not where science COULD provide answers, like in this area.

 

I'm just suggesting that false confidence is terribly dangerous, and I know you agree with that.

 

And I DID put your kits on both of my BMWs.

[Albert]

So just to paraphrase, you guys are saying the green is better than the orange?

[BFG]

I just ordered a set of FB's reflective stickers, but not to be conspicious. They should work great covering the scratches on my painted saddlebag that decided to launch itself.

 

As for security, Helen Keller was on to something...

 

"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing."

[Dave McReynolds]

We take it on faith that making ourselves more conspicuous, helps make us more easily seen, and therefore our presence at least acknowledged on the road. Just as parents take it on faith that their words of warning about smoking, pre-marital sex, drugs, will keep their kids on the straight and narrow. Kids rarely come home from a party and say, "Dad, Mom, if not for the talks you've had with me, I would have done drugs and probably gotten pregnant tonight." But we see them daily, going about the business of living, and we know that whether it's us, or whether it's all of the input they receive, they're doing something right and it's protecting them.

 

To sort of follow up what David said, I remember being sort of a rebellious youth, and there were times I’m sure my parents would have done better by keeping their mouths shut, as I sometimes viewed parental warnings as a challenge to do the opposite.

In the same vein, I think we should look for appropriate levels of conspicuity. Examples of excess have been given: police lights that confuse more than help, and bright motorcycle lights that blind oncoming drivers. I’m not sure that riding around dressed like a clown helps any more than wearing a bright helmet and having a few reflectors on the motorcycle.

[Patallaire]

I think loud pipes would help!

[John Bentall]

Sorry to miscontrue David!

 

I could not work out whether in your first post you were saying

 

"Hi-Viz is a great idea but it won't stop you being killed by a dork"

Or

"Hi-Viz is a fairly good idea but it won't stop you being killed by a dork"

 

You could reply "it doesn't matter if you're dead" but that is not the corner I'm trying to paint you into!

 

John

[Couchrocket]

Getting a flu shot does not protect me from all strains of the flu.

 

I still get a flu shot.

[NoHeat]

I've often wondered how much good they do. Have we saved a life? Saved several? Countless injuries? The truth is, we don't know. We never get a call from either the rider or the motorist who says, "if not for your product, I would have killed/been killed."

 

yes, and that's something that distinguishes products intended to make accidents less likely and crash gear that's intended to survive them. You can find plenty of testimonials for crash gear like "if it weren't for my helmet I'd be dead" or "if it weren't for my riding jacket I would have road rash". That's because the crash actually happened, and it was survived.

 

Same thing for a kid riding a bicycle at night with a white shirt and a helmet. Both are a good idea, but unlike the helmet you'll never find somebody who said that wearing that white shirt saved their life.

[fisherman]

David,

 

If wearing hi vis or being wired up like the "Electric Horseman" keeps just one car/driver from doing something stupid it's all good. Conspicuity works....I guarantee you.

 

Gil Horsley

[David]

David,

 

If wearing hi vis or being wired up like the "Electric Horseman" keeps just one car/driver from doing something stupid it's all good.

 

And if wearing hi viz and being wired up like the "Electric Horseman" gives a single rider false confidence it's all bad.

 

Conspicuity works....I guarantee you.

 

What sort of guarantee are you offering, and what is it based on?

[fisherman]

Quote:

"What sort of guarantee are you offering, and what is it based on?"

 

Many years of Duck and Turkey hunting.

 

Gil Horsley

[russell_bynum]

Quote:

"What sort of guarantee are you offering, and what is it based on?"

 

Many years of Duck and Turkey hunting.

 

Gil Horsley

 

LOL!!!