Took one for the team, my very high mileage oil.

[KDeline]

Just an FYI, I use what they say is the best synthetic oil out there. Pulled my rear end and gearbox oil after 51000 miles and it's still the same clear green as when it went in and tested out as no oil change needed at this time. Same with the engine oil at 18000 miles. Makes me question all this changing out of low mileage oil. Seems like a waste.

[moshe_levy]

The ASSumption you make is that the color alone determines the lubricating properties of the oil, which is far from accurate. A bottle of synthetic oil is about $7, a bottle of hypoid about $5. Forgive me if I say that sacrificing a multi-thousand dollar drivetrain for the "waste" of regular changes is not the best decision one could make.

 

-MKL

[Mr_Ed]

Which bike did you run for 18K before changing the engine oil? Did you swap the oil filter any time during that interval? What percentage of your riding was highway miles during that period?

[JayW]

It's an interesting experiment, if that is indeed your intent. I have wondered myself how long a regularly-used engine would last if the crankase was filled with a high-quality synthetic oil that is never changed, but only topped up as needed. My guess is 40,000 miles or more. I suspect an infrequently-used engine might start wearing quickly after a couple of years of neglect.

 

This would be a great PhD thesis for some engineer....

 

Jay

[Lmar]

Poster: KDeline

Subject: Re: Took one for the team, my very high mileage oil.

 

Just an FYI, I use what they say is the best synthetic oil out there. Pulled my rear end and gearbox oil after 51000 miles and it's still the same clear green as when it went in and tested out as no oil change needed at this time. Same with the engine oil at 18000 miles. Makes me question all this changing out of low mileage oil. Seems like a waste.

 

I think an oil change is a cheap alternative to an expensive repair. I rather not take the chance for a few bucks.

[smiller]

Changing oil at 2000 miles is wasting oil. Changing oil at 51000 miles is wasting a gearbox.

[eddd]

What did you mean by "tested"?

[Skywagon]

Not motorcycle but similar. When I was in college I was working as shop help in a Chevrolet dealer. A nice senior lady came in one day in her 63 chevy impala with 80,000 miles and asked for an oil change. I asked her what oil she wanted to use. She said whatever it came with.

 

I racked it, pulled the plug.......nothing. I pulled the pan and it was complete hardened sludge with very little oil. I asked her when she last changed her oil, and she reminded me it had fresh oil in it when she bought it. The car was 12 years old and had never had the oil changed and apparently had not more than a quart or two circulating... Her brother told her when it needed oil to just add STP and it would stop burning oil.

 

We changed it, advised her to come back more often, and I never saw her again...

[Linz]

Good stuff that STP. I'd never used it but at Agricultural Shows (County Fairs) here is Australia many years ago, there were always demonstrations by STP folk where they'd add STP to an engine and run it for a while and then they'd drop the sump and rev the ears off the engine for what seemed like hours to prove that you couldn't seize an engine with STP in it.

 

I never did see one lock up either...

 

Linz

[tallman]

Beforre jumping on Ken, read his post.

I don't think it says 51k between oil changes.

He mentions 3 fluids in his post and says the oil tested as no change needed.

He says the color of the fluids in the FD and Tran appear very good.

Now, I'm a believer in changing fluids.

I run synthetic oil and change between 3-7k depending on usage and conditions.

I change tran and FD between 6-12k based on usage and conditions.

But, many years ago David posted numerous testing results from his oil changes ove @18k (I think) and MCN did a story w/oil change testing results comparing oils.

Oils do differ and their test results differ based on mileage and conditions but if you're bike isn't "burning" oil it seems keeping the level correct is as imporatnt as other factors.

Now, if I misread his post and he went 51k w/out an oil change I would like to have seen an analysis of that oil.

Not so I wouold then go longer stretches between oil changes, I'm probably not going to do that, but for information and data rather than conjecture.

In the late 70's we had some friends who owned a Toyota corolla.

It had well over 100k on it. They only added oil as needed over the life of the car.

Again, not my choice, but I'm open to data about such choices.

Best wishes.

[VinnyR11]

Tim keeps a very open mind on this which we should all do. I happen to completely agree with KDeline on this. I think the "change your oil every 4-5K miles" is 99% marketing hype. Having said that, I wind up doing it anyway. Go figure. I also, however, never sweat it if I go 1-2K miles over.

 

A number of years ago there was an article about oil testing in either MCN or Motorcyclist. (I'm pretty sure it was MCN) The author stated that in many years of testing oil he has never seen a single repair that was due to the breakdown of the oil itself. Lack of oil, yes, but not due to the oil losing its properties due to age to the extent that it did not lubricate well enough for the engine to function properly. He suggested you could leave good oil in your bike for multiple miles above the service intervals; however, due to manufacturer's rules, you're on your own if warranty issues arise.

[Selden]

Given the known issues with BMW transmissions and FDs, changing the oil seems as much an exercise in spotting problems before they come serious. It's not that much expense or effort, and if you're really concerned about wasting oil, you could just pour the oil back in -- as I did the first time I checked the FD oil.

[Polo]

Tim keeps a very open mind on this which we should all do. I happen to completely agree with KDeline on this. I think the "change your oil every 4-5K miles" is 99% marketing hype. Having said that, I wind up doing it anyway. Go figure. I also, however, never sweat it if I go 1-2K miles over.

 

Sam marketing hype as the one on shampoo bottles telling you to shampoo you rhair twice. Why?

 

I use mineral oil, I change at 3K, more because I like to know that there's clean oil in there than because I think the engine is at risk. It's my toy, I like to play wit it!

 

With my cars I also use mineral oil and go 5K between changes. I had a FORD truck for 187K w/o problems this way.

With my wife's Murano, since she drives so little, I use synthetic and change it every 6 months.

 

So I am inclined to think that if there's reasonably new oil in there, you're liklely OK.

 

Now just toping as needed I don't agree, I think that for every success story we hear about, there are many more who burned the engine, but feel too stupid to disclose their anecdote.

 

We tend to talk only about the ones we win.

[betty]

 

I think an oil change is a cheap alternative to an expensive repair. I rather not take the chance for a few bucks.

 

The oil companies and their stock holders thank you for this opinion. ;-)

 

I prefer to keep my money in my wallet and run extended drain intervals with all my equipment. Interestingly enough pushing all the drain intervals way past manufactures suggestions-with oil analysis at regular intervals of course-I have not lost an engine, trans, diff or final drive in 23 years of driving.This includes everything from cars to dump trucks. My wife's bmw car has the oil changed at 18k intervals by BMW and within their warranty guidelines.

All the stuff I own/owned/drive/run has been sold with high mileage or high hours.

[boatzo]

Given the known issues with BMW transmissions and FDs, changing the oil seems as much an exercise in spotting problems before they come serious. It's not that much expense or effort, and if you're really concerned about wasting oil, you could just pour the oil back in -- as I did the first time I checked the FD oil.

 

+1 on that comment Seldon. Had I not changed my trans oil recently and found a bunch of metal pieces in the oil, I would have had a major rebuild or replacement of the trans instead of just a repair.

[Mister Tee]

Changing oil at 2000 miles is wasting oil. Changing oil at 51000 miles is wasting a gearbox.

 

Couldn't state it better myself.

[JayW]

...in many years of testing oil he has never seen a single repair that was due to the breakdown of the oil itself.

 

Maybe so, but the additives and detergents get consumed and are no longer able to keep particulates and dirt in suspension or neutralize acids. This is why engines subject to skipped oil changes usually have sludge buildup as this gunk deposits on the engine surfaces. The sludge is a poor lubricant, prevents the oil from filming where it needs to, blocks oil passages, prevents heat transfer, and gums up the mechanicals.

 

Jay

[smiller]

Maybe so, but the additives and detergents get consumed and are no longer able to keep particulates and dirt in suspension or neutralize acids.

Yes, and contaminants (too small to be removed by the oil filter) build up in the oil and these need to be removed as well. Replacing the oil does that, leaving it in forever does not.

[tallman]

Maybe so, but the additives and detergents get consumed and are no longer able to keep particulates and dirt in suspension or neutralize acids.

Yes, and contaminants (too small to be removed by the oil filter) build up in the oil and these need to be removed as well. Replacing the oil does that, leaving it in forever does not.

 

And I agree with this point.

That is why I change mine and use synthetic.

There are other options but I'm not sure about the long term effect of running well used oil.

Many anecdotal stories of people running long trips and going past the magic mileage number.

What about extreme riding, for example the Iron Butt Rally?

Do they change oil/filter during the event?

This is an issue that has proponents on all sides and most of us are mostly right most of the time.

[smiller]

What about extreme riding, for example the Iron Butt Rally?

Do they change oil/filter during the event?

Iron Butt riding (i.e. many miles per start cycle) is ideal for oil life (few cold starts which can cause oil dilution by fuel, few temperature changes that can cause condensation, etc.). I wouldn't hesitate to use oil that I might normally change at 5-6,000 miles for 8-10,000 miles under Iron Butt conditions.

[marcopolo]

Listened to an engineer from Spectro once and he said the easiest thing on oil was to start the engine and keep running it, for example a cross-continent ride.

[KDeline]

Bike was ridden all kinds of ways, short errands to cross country trips, and some 10 degree engine starts. Engine oil filter was changed out every 6000 or so miles with that amount being replaced with fresh oil and topped off when needed, I'm guessing 2 quarts in 18000 miles. Gearbox and final drive not touched for 51000 miles. IMHO changing oils out at 6000 miles just seems wasteful and expensive, and after testing that seems to be the case. Just my experience, and I have run 4 bikes well past 100,000 miles with no oil related problems. YET.

[Quinn]

Has anyone here ever had an oil related failure? I'm guessing that the closest would be using oil after mucho mileage from worn rings.

 

 

[4wheeldog]

Has anyone here ever had an oil related failure? I'm guessing that the closest would be using oil after mucho mileage from worn rings.

 

 

There has been the occasional unexplained rod bearing failure.

[AZKomet]

It's an interesting experiment, if that is indeed your intent. I have wondered myself how long a regularly-used engine would last if the crankase was filled with a high-quality synthetic oil that is never changed, but only topped up as needed. My guess is 40,000 miles or more. I suspect an infrequently-used engine might start wearing quickly after a couple of years of neglect.

 

This would be a great PhD thesis for some engineer....

 

Jay

 

On a similar note......I once dated a gal many years ago before all of this high tech oil stuff was developed. She had a 1975 Camaro that she bought new and NEVER yes, NEVER changed the oil and filter except once when the car was very new. She had little $$ and until I met her always thought that if the car was full of oil she was good.

 

Now the last time I saw her the car at 16ok was still rolling. It can be done, but I certainly wouldn't do it myself.

[markgoodrich]

Oh, I got a better one than that, Dave, although it doesn't involve a girl. It does, however PROVE that changing oil is a waste of time and money. Or not.

 

From 1969 to 1972 a buddy and I painted houses for a living. Our work truck was a 1954 International pickup which had seen duty as a county maintenance vehicle up until we bought it. Who knows how many miles it had on it? Probably a billion. It had a six cylinder engine. It leaked oil. It only ran on five cylinders. Our standard process for lubrication was to stop at the cheapest gas station in Austin and fill up, and add a quart of USED OIL from glass bottles provided by the station owner. I'd like to tell you we were early recyclers, but actually the used oil was very affordable. We sold the thing to our helper when we came to our senses and went back to college, and he I am sure faithfully followed our maintenance regime. I saw him four or five years later, and he was still driving the truck. He did mention that he'd bought a used tire for it, and had the brakes replaced. And no, we never changed the oil filter.

[AZKomet]

Oh, I got a better one than that, Dave, although it doesn't involve a girl. It does, however PROVE that changing oil is a waste of time and money. Or not.

 

From 1969 to 1972 a buddy and I painted houses for a living. Our work truck was a 1954 International pickup which had seen duty as a county maintenance vehicle up until we bought it. Who knows how many miles it had on it? Probably a billion. It had a six cylinder engine. It leaked oil. It only ran on five cylinders. Our standard process for lubrication was to stop at the cheapest gas station in Austin and fill up, and add a quart of USED OIL from glass bottles provided by the station owner. I'd like to tell you we were early recyclers, but actually the used oil was very affordable. We sold the thing to our helper when we came to our senses and went back to college, and he I am sure faithfully followed our maintenance regime. I saw him four or five years later, and he was still driving the truck. He did mention that he'd bought a used tire for it, and had the brakes replaced. And no, we never changed the oil filter.

 

I remember that used oil in the glass containers!!!! WOW....that brings back memories!!!!

[Ken H.]

Maybe so, but the additives and detergents get consumed and are no longer able to keep particulates and dirt in suspension or neutralize acids.

Yes, but the level of those remaining can be tested for too. All the good labs do.

 

Over the last few years I’ve been increasing the interval of changes in all our vehicles and each analysis I have done comes back with the oil (and additives) no where near depleted. And the reports say, "Recommend going longer before next change."

 

Use fewer resources, help the environment, save money, still protect the vehicle - longer change intervals are a win-win-win-win.

 

Break away from your grandfather’s thinking, today’s vehicles and oils are radically better.

 

[DavidEBSmith]

What about extreme riding, for example the Iron Butt Rally?

Do they change oil/filter during the event?

Iron Butt riding (i.e. many miles per start cycle) is ideal for oil life (few cold starts which can cause oil dilution by fuel, few temperature changes that can cause condensation, etc.). I wouldn't hesitate to use oil that I might normally change at 5-6,000 miles for 8-10,000 miles under Iron Butt conditions.

 

After the 2005 IBR I sent a sample of the oil to Blackstone for analysis. I had the same oil (BMW synth) in the bike for the entire rally plus a couple of thousand miles in the fall, probably 12K total. I would guess I had added one or two quarts in that time. The oil tested fine - everything Blackstone checks was still within normal specs.

 

The only other comments I have on this discussion are:

 

- When final drives started failing on the IBR, people said that the long uninterrupted stretches of riding are hard on the oil. When it comes to oil in the engine, people say that the long uninterrupted stretches of riding are easy on the oil.

 

- Wasn't it BMW who initially claimed that the new final drives have "lifetime" oil that never needed changing?

[smiller]

Break away from your grandfather’s thinking, today’s vehicles and oils are radically better.

Current technology does allow for much longer change intervals than grandad's time (10-15k instead of 3k) but there is a limit, oil still has additive packages that degrade over time and is still contained with wear materials over time. I would be the first to agree that the results of an oil analysis trump set change intervals, but 51k miles (as in the OP)? Sorry, wouldn't be prudent.

 

Wasn't it BMW who initially claimed that the new final drives have "lifetime" oil that never needed changing?

Yes, and it was BMW who experienced a spate of FD failures and consequently released a service bulletin noting that wear contaminates can accumulate in the oil and shorten component life (who would have thought?), and that they were now recommending regular change intervals.

[Ken H.]

Yes, my comment is directed at the people still adhering to a 30-year old "3K" mindset.

[smiller]

Yes, my comment is directed at the people still adhering to a 30-year old "3K" mindset.

Yes, I'd heartily agree there.

[David]

I've quit joining these discussions. I've got spreadsheets of data on these exact engines from testing dozens of samples, but the "believers" in the old way of doing things don't care about data. So I keep my blood pressure lower and just let you and Ken have all the fun.

[g_frey]

80,000 miles on one change? Beat my having a guy come in with a JC Whitney toliet paper oil filter after 50,000 miles. He just wanted new toliet paper and the oil topped off! 2 year old chrysler new yorker, smoking like a steam train! The customer is always right even when they are wrong!

[SageRider]

...toliet paper oil filter ...

Nothing wrong with the Frantz (toilet paper) filter. It's far better than any standard oem oil filter in filtering capability. Filter must still be changed frequently with new oil added to replace that absorbed by the TP.

At least when I had mine on a '64 Chevy Impala (ancient history...) the change interval was 1K miles and 1 quart of oil was needed to top off. Essentially a full oil change every 5K miles.

On running mine for 50K miles after an engine rebuild, I pulled the oil pan and valve covers for inspection. Absolutely sparkling clean shiny silver inside. The oil just never got dirty... And the Impala was never a smoker.

I would suspect the Chrysler smoking was not due to a properly maintained TP filter.

 

Edit:

The only reason I don't run one today is that the engines last just fine on the oem filters for at least as long as I am likely to keep a vehicle.

[DavidEBSmith]

I've quit joining these discussions. I've got spreadsheets of data on these exact engines from testing dozens of samples, but the "believers" in the old way of doing things don't care about data.

 

It's not the "believers" you're going to convince - whether the topic is oil changes, politics or anything in between - it's the undecideds, the newbies, and that small fraction of the population with an open mind.

[tallman]

I've quit joining these discussions. I've got spreadsheets of data on these exact engines from testing dozens of samples, but the "believers" in the old way of doing things don't care about data.

 

It's not the "believers" you're going to convince - whether the topic is oil changes, politics or anything in between - it's the undecideds, the newbies, and that small fraction of the population with an open mind.

 

Agreed.

It was David's original postings long ago that I took into consideration with my vehicles. (and said so above, giving credit where it is due).

 

My new Malibu came w/free oil changes for life.

They are to be done every 7,000 miles (minimum distance) which is a far cry from the 3k philosophy.

I guess we need someone to buy 2 bikes, ride tham alternately, change oil every x miles in one and never in the other.

After x time/miles, tear it apart and compare the internals, inspect, weigh and measure to see what, if any differences are there.

Better yet, a group of rider should participate.

If someone buys me 2 bikes, I'm IN!

[tallman]

I've quit joining these discussions. I've got spreadsheets of data on these exact engines from testing dozens of samples, but the "believers" in the old way of doing things don't care about data. So I keep my blood pressure lower and just let you and Ken have all the fun.

 

 

Question, "What would it take to get David to participate?"

[NoHeat]

FWIW, about ten years ago Toyota had a famous problem with engines that seized due to sludge. Especially the Sienna minivan. Toyota blamed customers for not changing oil often enough and wouldn't honor the 60,000 mile engine warranty if you had sludge. And a lot of customers did have engines seize up before 60k miles.

 

For that engine, apparently, going slightly beyond the recommended 7500 miles (5000 miles severe use) had catastrophic results.

 

Google TOYOTA SLUDGE and you'll find a lot about it.

 

It's a different engine we're using, obviously, but the Toyota problem made me aware that sludge from extended oil changes can do some really bad things.

[Ken H.]

I've quit joining these discussions. I've got spreadsheets of data on these exact engines from testing dozens of samples, but the "believers" in the old way of doing things don't care about data. So I keep my blood pressure lower and just let you and Ken have all the fun.

Ah Seth there we are, 'taking one for the team,' er, I mean "for David" again!

[Tony_K]

FWIW, about ten years ago Toyota had a famous problem with engines that seized due to sludge. Especially the Sienna minivan. Toyota blamed customers for not changing oil often enough and wouldn't honor the 60,000 mile engine warranty if you had sludge. And a lot of customers did have engines seize up before 60k miles.

 

For that engine, apparently, going slightly beyond the recommended 7500 miles (5000 miles severe use) had catastrophic results.

 

Google TOYOTA SLUDGE and you'll find a lot about it.

 

It's a different engine we're using, obviously, but the Toyota problem made me aware that sludge from extended oil changes can do some really bad things.

 

The sludge was not necessarily a result infrequent oil changes... in your Google search you should have uncovered that...

[OoPEZoO]

The sludge was not necessarily a result infrequent oil changes... in your Google search you should have uncovered that...

 

Nope.....some motors are just sludge making machines. I had a '97 Isuzu Rodeo for 9 years and 110k miles. The engine was a GM designed, Subaru built 3.6L V6 that made the most disgusting sludge I've ever seen in a motor. They were VERY well know for a bad lifter tap and sludge clogging up the oil journals. This obviously caused some long term issues. The only way to keep the motor some what clean was to run Mobil-1 0W-30 and run about 1/2 a bottle of Seafoam Green through it every other oil change.

[g_frey]

I agree that the toliet paper oil filter probably would filter better than OEM. I don't know that the oil pressure available in most vehicles could push oil through it??? That is a path at least 80 times longer than OEM with a compression packing factor of many times the OEM I would guess. If it could push oil through it, the flow would seem to be so slow that I am not sure it would be useful? Seems like I read an test article long ago that concluded that TP filters were NOT the way to go? Anybody?

[smiller]

I agree that the toliet paper oil filter probably would filter better than OEM.

Then why doesn't even a single automotive or motorcycle OEM use them?

[4wheeldog]

I agree that the toliet paper oil filter probably would filter better than OEM.

Then why doesn't even a single automotive or motorcycle OEM use them?

 

Franz toilet paper filters are not full flow filters......They took a small amount of flow from the oil pressure switch/sending unit and ran it (More like trickled it) throught the toilet paper element. They were not particularly efficient, and did not do at all well when subjected to high flows and temperatures.

 

They were probably never used OEM for 2 big reasons......Quality control of the TP going in them was a crap shoot, and they were a mess to change and clean out the chamber. I never thought they were a great idea anyway.

[realshelby]

No affiliation, but intrigued by the concept of this process.

 

http://www.gulfcoastfilters.com/

 

In the present "green" culture I think we should look at something like this with an open mind. Manufacturers warranties would be at risk going with the bypass systems, but after the warranty period I believe these systems would pay off.

[SageRider]

Frantz filters were a "bypass" design filter, so a high pressure point was tapped to flow in parallel to the normal filtering circuit. The filter on my Impala was very effective and, as the can was mounted to drain when the engine was off, it was extremely simple to change the filter. Just pop the retaining band, remove the cover, then remove and discard the filter, which though saturated with oil was not dripping wet or soggy. One could use any white, or preferably unbleached TP as the replacement filter.

Why don't the OEMs include a filter of this type? It's not necessary to achieve the desired engine lifetime (100K+ miles).

Who does use this type or similar design "bypass" filters? Look to long haul truckers.

[g_frey]

It is possible in a lab to filter down to sub micron size but it is a very slow and high pressure process. In the meantime your engine would like a lot more oil than the process can deliver. Just because something filters well doesn't mean it will work well in the real world. In any case I have no data to back up my hypothesis, just looked at the flow path <.05" on a OEM filter and about 4" on a toliet paper filter.