tallman Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 or you can purchase pre-made CANBUS warning cancellers. EBAY CANBUS CANCEL HARNESS The HID kit I purchased on Ebay was advertised "CANBUS" compatible. Never had any problems with it, very happy with the upgrade. For example... HID CANBUS compatible OK, that second link looks TGTBT, but I'll take them at their word. Has anyone tried that in a motorcycle? How compatible are these w/the reflectors? Any feedback on these? I could go for this plug and play set up. Link to comment
OoPEZoO Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 I just looked, on the R1200RT the low beam bulbs are wired in parallel. I.e., they are a single circuit from the ZFE module. Thanks for looking Ken, but I need some verification here. The 2 hot wires for the low beams.......do they go back to seperate pins on the ZFE module, or do they connect together at the harness and go back to a single pin? Both would technically be considered parallel depending on the internal circuitry of the ZFE module. Due to Danny's "one bulb out, one bulb on", I'm assuming they go back to seperate pins. Otherwise an error on one low beam bulb would cause the ZFE module to shut down both lights. Hang in there Danny, this will be easy once I figure out how your bike is wired. Also, does the 1200RT give you some sort of warning when you have a low beam bulb error (idiot light or something on the computer display), or does it just shut it down? Link to comment
OoPEZoO Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 OK, that second link looks TGTBT, but I'll take them at their word. Has anyone tried that in a motorcycle? How compatible are these w/the reflectors? Any feedback on these? I could go for this plug and play set up. its very doable Tim. I'm surprised it took this long for companies to start doing this. Essentially, what the do is design the ballast to pull as much current as the stock 55W headlight bulbs. Then the computer doesn't even know anything has changed. The early HID setups were touted as pulling less current, which is great.......but not when the computer is expecting 55W and the new ballast only pulls 35W. Basicly all they do is add some beefy resistors inside the ballast to bring the power draw from 35W up to 55W. Its extremely innefficiant as far as electronic design rules, but thats what it takes to outsmart the computers. I think that 2nd link would be the perfect setup. Everything is built into the ballast instead of running extra harnesses. No fuss, plug and play. Link to comment
HandyAndy Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 Is it just me or does this just sound crazy! If you put in resistors to emulate the current draw of the stock 55W bulbs, and add HID lights that draw 35W you are now using 90W per light. So a total of 180 watts instead of the stock 110 Watts. Sure you are getting more light but seems like a waste to me. I installed my HID lights so the ballasts are powered from the stock bulb connections with spade connectors pushed into the bulb socket. I had a lot of problems with some of the cheaper HID ballasts (VVME) so I switched to the slim ballasts offered by CQ Light. These work much better. Occasionally when I start the bike only one HID light comes on, when this happens the bulb failure on the computer comes on. If I switch off and restart the bike both lights will usually come on. When one HID doesn’t come on I have checked the voltage to the ballast and it is still there, so on my RT the ZFE doesn’t turn the power off to the bulb even when the bulb failure icon is on! Hid lights pulse high voltage to ignite the bulbs, but they don’t know if they actually light. This pulsing only happens for a second or so when they are first powered up, then they return to their normal lower running voltage. So if the bulb fails to light you need to turn the power off and on again to force another restart sequence. I read on one of the Hid sites that HID lights should only be started 3 times in an hour or else the bulb life suffers. This might explain why I have gone through 3 HID bulbs in the high beam of my bike. The last one also took out the ballast. I have temporarily gone back to a stock H7 for High beam, it looks wimpy compared to the low beams but it is better than no High beam. Andy. Link to comment
smiller Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 They are only adding 20 watts of additional load per light (to bring the total up to 55), not 55 additional watts per light. Still it all seems silly. As I said at the top of the post, too smart for its own good. And there's no reason to design it to be so sensitive, could easily be set for a much wider range of current draw since a lamp is basically good or not. The designers just don't want to bother with aftermarket compatibility (or perhaps even intentionally block it) and as consumers we need to decide whether that's acceptable or not. Link to comment
OoPEZoO Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 Is it just me or does this just sound crazy! If you put in resistors to emulate the current draw of the stock 55W bulbs, and add HID lights that draw 35W you are now using 90W per light. So a total of 180 watts instead of the stock 110 Watts. Sure you are getting more light but seems like a waste to me. It doesn't work like that. Putting resistance in parallel lowers the overall resistance of a circuit.......ie a 4 Ohm resitor measures 4 Ohms. Two 4 Ohm resistors in parallel measures 2 Ohms. The wattage would not just stack on top of each other. Its all in the calculations (V=IR, P=VI). If the ballast pulls 35W at 12V, then it is pulling about 2.9 Amps. That means the Ballast has an Ohm rating of apprix 4 Ohms. In order to get to 55W, you need an overall load of around 4.6 Amps. To get that you need a circuit resistance of around 2.6 Ohms. So back to the 4 Ohm ballast.......You would hav to add a resistor in parallel with the ballast to drop the resistance from 4 Ohms to 2.6 Ohms. Then for the fun. That is all based on 12V. We all know that voltage is going to slightly vary depending on Alternator output, so you would need to pick a resistor to cover all possible voltage ranges (say 12-14.5V). Anybody's brain hurt yet? Link to comment
Huzband Posted June 5, 2009 Author Share Posted June 5, 2009 Anybody's brain hurt yet? Mine's been hurting for days. I read it, but I don't understand it. But as long as it works when I plug it in, I don't care. Link to comment
Ken H. Posted June 6, 2009 Share Posted June 6, 2009 do they go back to seperate pins on the ZFE module, or do they connect together at the harness and go back to a single pin? They go back to seperate pins on the ZFE. 33 and 46 actually. Link to comment
johnlt Posted June 6, 2009 Share Posted June 6, 2009 I've been following this thread and it is on it's fourth page and the boy still doesn't have lights! I think he needs "better" help. Link to comment
Huzband Posted June 6, 2009 Author Share Posted June 6, 2009 Resistors should be here Mon., John. Can't do anything till then. Link to comment
Ken H. Posted June 6, 2009 Share Posted June 6, 2009 I've been following this thread and it is on it's fourth page and the boy still doesn't have lights! I think he needs "better" help. Hey give us a break. We’re 1000s of mile apart, and this is only an Internet forum after all. It's not easy troubleshooting a motorcycle in text form. Link to comment
ArthurKnowles Posted June 6, 2009 Share Posted June 6, 2009 FWIW, when I buy my next set I'm going to try these ... http://www.alpha-bid.com/product330.html They have the canceler built right in to the unit. Link to comment
Survived-til-now Posted June 6, 2009 Share Posted June 6, 2009 Why would two relays be inefficient? I think your instinct was right first time. By separating the two headlights into individual circuits you now have much more resilience on your secondary circuit if one side shorts out somewhere or blows a ballast, and even relays fail from time to time. You may even have more resilience on the primary circuit but I am not so sure on that. The ZFE may cut out a circuit for too little current on some circuits but if a bulb goes on the low beam or tail/brake circuit surely it leaves the circuit live or there is no point in dual bulbs on those circuits. Is it not more likely that the whole problem of the ZFE cutting out the circuit is more to do with a current over-draw during the ballast warm-up - that surely explains why so many people find that if one HID comes up on start and it then shuts down, when they restart the bike that HID ballast is already up and the ZFE has only to cope with the other ballast warming up? Or is that too logical? What I do know is that my dealer messed about unsuccessfully trying to get my HIDs to work and I took the problem off them and solved the problem with your circuit - it worked first time and that was three years ago! I do have the blown bulb warning but heck who cares? I am not going to waste power on resistors just to sort that. Stick with your original design. Andy Link to comment
OoPEZoO Posted June 6, 2009 Share Posted June 6, 2009 I've been following this thread and it is on it's fourth page and the boy still doesn't have lights! I think he needs "better" help. Hey give us a break. We’re 1000s of mile apart, and this is only an Internet forum after all. It's not easy troubleshooting a motorcycle in text form. +1......If I had a 1200RT in front of me I could have had him an answer in about 30 seconds. BUT, I don't. I've never done anything more than thrown a leg over one without the engine running. What I do have is a formal education in electronics and wiring, with pretty strong hobbies in automotive/motorcycle repair. I want to make sure I get the facts straight so I don't screw something up and fry the electrical system of my friends motorcycle. Ken.....thank you for the verification, thats what I was thinking and exactly what I needed to know. Danny, I intentionally broke the link to my original artistic rendition. Here is version 2.0. I believe this should allow everything to work as intended with no errors to the CANBUS. If I was in your boat, I would make my own harness. Link to comment
Matts_12GS Posted June 6, 2009 Share Posted June 6, 2009 Looks easy enough to me. Danny, I'm no engineer, but I am a former avionics technician who was once certified in electronic component repair. I have an iron and solder, when you want me to come by and help build a harness? Keith, when and where does the Labor Day escapades begin? I need to leave my bike someplace... Link to comment
OoPEZoO Posted June 6, 2009 Share Posted June 6, 2009 Keith, when and where does the Labor Day escapades begin? I need to leave my bike someplace... Party van (cleverly disguised as a '03 Chevy Astro) leaves for Toronto first thing in the morning from 17368 on Friday Sept. 4th. We plan to be back early afternoon on Labor Day. Plenty of room in the garage for your bike. Link to comment
Matts_12GS Posted June 6, 2009 Share Posted June 6, 2009 Hmmm, that makes for a long Monday ride home... Maybe I should get a plane ticket! Link to comment
Huzband Posted June 6, 2009 Author Share Posted June 6, 2009 Looks easy enough to me. Danny, I'm no engineer, but I am a former avionics technician who was once certified in electronic component repair. I have an iron and solder, when you want me to come by and help build a harness? Maybe Mon. or Tue. Depends on when the resistors get here. I'll call ya. I do need soldering help though, I always sucked at that. Nate was a huge help with this today. He says I can fire the HID's off the Centech block, which is the same thing Mark at BMW Daytona said yesterday. This might turn out to be easier than I (we) thought. If that doesn't work, I'll revert to Keith's schematic. Thanks, bro. Link to comment
smiller Posted June 7, 2009 Share Posted June 7, 2009 You know Danny I'm just wondering... I saw a note in a BMW service bulletin concerning the 'official' BMW HID upgrade (there is a kit for the GT, not sure if there is one for the RT) where it was mentioned that the ZFE unit had to be re-programmed due to the exact problem we've been discussing here. i.e. the differing start-up and operating current draw between the two systems. Since it is apparently possible to re-program the ZFE to support this perhaps your dealer could do this for you? I have no idea if this is the case but it seems plausible. Link to comment
Huzband Posted June 7, 2009 Author Share Posted June 7, 2009 I don't know. Mark, the lead BMW tech in Daytona, didn't mention this yesterday when I asked him about intsalling HID's in an RT. For what it's worth, the guy at the parts counter showed me the HID kit they sell, & although it was from a different company, it looked EXACTLY the same as what I have. I've come to the conclusion that they are all universal. But we have have to add relays/resistors to make them specific to our needs. Link to comment
smiller Posted June 7, 2009 Share Posted June 7, 2009 I don't think that the official BMW kit is universal since it is an application-specific plug n' play upgrade (with the appropriate ZFE reprogram.) But I'm guessing that it is also silly expensive. But it still might be worth asking your dealer about the ZFE reprogram. If they haven't done any BMW-kit upgrades perhaps they just don't know about it (or... perhaps it's not possible.) Can't hurt to ask though. Link to comment
Twisties Posted June 7, 2009 Share Posted June 7, 2009 So, what's an HID and why do you want it? Apparently it replaces the standard light bulbs and uses less current, I infer. I'd sure hate to put resistors in to up the current draw back up. I'd want the energy savings. Run more stuff, or save gas. Link to comment
Huzband Posted June 7, 2009 Author Share Posted June 7, 2009 Pay attention, Jan! This ain't yer baloney warming thread. It's about seein' where the h*** I'm goin'. Link to comment
Huzband Posted June 7, 2009 Author Share Posted June 7, 2009 I don't think that the official BMW kit is universal since it is an application-specific plug n' play upgrade (with the appropriate ZFE reprogram.) But I'm guessing that it is also silly expensive. But it still might be worth asking your dealer about the ZFE reprogram. If they haven't done any BMW-kit upgrades perhaps they just don't know about it (or... perhaps it's not possible.) Can't hurt to ask though. The guy at the parts counter didn't say it was an "official" BMW kit, he just said it was the one they sold. I don't have any info on an "official" BMW HID kit for the 12RT. Now, to dig deeper, I don't know what ZFE is. Can you explain in short here, or is it too involved? If so, a PM is welcomed. I'm mechanically inclined. Electronically? Not so much. Link to comment
AdventurePoser Posted June 7, 2009 Share Posted June 7, 2009 Why don't you just ride in the daytime? Steve in So Cal Link to comment
Huzband Posted June 7, 2009 Author Share Posted June 7, 2009 Another wise-acre! As if I don't have enough. Link to comment
AdventurePoser Posted June 7, 2009 Share Posted June 7, 2009 Hi Danny! Steve in So Cal Link to comment
Huzband Posted June 7, 2009 Author Share Posted June 7, 2009 Yeah, it's always sunny in SoCal. Rained here all afternoon. Link to comment
OoPEZoO Posted June 7, 2009 Share Posted June 7, 2009 He says I can fire the HID's off the Centech block, which is the same thing Mark at BMW Daytona said yesterday. This might turn out to be easier than I (we) thought. If that doesn't work, I'll revert to Keith's schematic. Thanks, bro. That should also work, you could actually trigger the relays off of just about any switched voltage source on the bike. Which one you use is totally up to you. That should fire your HIDs every time without interruption from the CANBUS. If you want the low beam warning light to go out, you will still need to add a resister to each of the factory headlight plugs to fake out the CANBUS. After doing a little searching, I came up with this. LINK Without having a 1200RT here to play with I couldn't find the acceptable window of operation for the headlight circuits, but according to that thread, people are getting by with using 33ohm resisters. If that is the case, I would definitely use 33ohm resisters instead of the 6ohm ones that are being sent to you. The difference in heat generated between the two will be substantial. 14V / 6Ω = 2.3Amps 14V * 2.3A = 32.2 Watts 14V / 33Ω = 0.424 Amps 14V * 0.424Amps = 5.94 Watts If you can fake out the CANBUS with drawing 420 mA versus 2.3 Amps, it would definitely be in your best interest. Either of these would work fine. You could order them from Digikey, or possibly get them local at Radio Shack or an electronics supply place Ceramic 33Ω 10W resistor or Alum Chassis 33Ω 10W resistor Link to comment
Ken H. Posted June 7, 2009 Share Posted June 7, 2009 I don't know what ZFE is. Can you explain in short here, or is it too involved? Short version – The bike doesn’t have any fuses or traditional power distribution. The ancillary areas of the bike, lights, horn, heated seats/grips, and such are controlled by one of the on-board computer modules called the ZFE. One of 4 or 5 (depending upon options) computer modules on the bike. People often refer to this as the “CANBus” but that is incorrect. The single wire CANBus is the communications bus/lead/wire between each of the computer modules over which they “talk” / exchange data with each other. Link to comment
Huzband Posted June 7, 2009 Author Share Posted June 7, 2009 Well, that clears it up. Not your fault, Ken. I'm just stupid when it comes to electronics. Just ask my Dad, he'll confirm it. Keith, I sense an invite to Pe Ay. You keep saying you don't have a 12RT in front of you, & mine seems the most likely candidate. You got a spare room? And more importantly, would Danielle be okay with a stray dog for a day or two? Link to comment
OoPEZoO Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Unfortunatly we don't have a spare room presently, but if you can deal with a big comfy couch you are welcome anytime. Danielle loves company. We might even feed ya To make it a little more simple. Forget the ZFE and the CANBUS for a minute. You can hook up your HID ballasts to relays and fire the relays with just about any switched 12V source on your bike. Its just like hooking up any old pair of aux lights. They will work fine. The only thing is that you will get a low beam bulb warning on your dashboard. If that doesn't bother you, you can ride it like that as long as you like. If you want to disable the bulb warning, then you need to add reisitors across each of the factory headlight plugs. From what I've read, you can use 33ohm 10W resistors to accomplish that. Thats the jist of it. That make any more sense? Link to comment
Matts_12GS Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Danny, I'll help 'splain it to you when I get back from NC Link to comment
RedMac Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 I haven't been on the board for a while or I would have answered earlier... I just went through this long thread. When I was looking at installing HID's in my 06 RT, I thought I would have to do the whole relay harness/resistor bit (and was prepared to do so). When I got the kit, I wired up the lights just for the heck of it to see what would happen and lo and behold, it all worked fine. No issues whatsoever. The lights have never once failed to start. In fact, when I took the ERC 2 weeks ago, one of the HID ballasts overheated from being on all day with little movement and one of the lights shut down. I actually got the headlight error on my LCD dash when that happened, which was great to see. That all being said, I'm not sure if the different years with different firmware measure the headlight current differently (more exact with later models?). Maybe Keith knows? I replaced both my low beams and my high beam with this kit last year. Completely plug and play for me. http://www.ddmtuning.com/index.php?p=product&id=101&parent=60 Link to comment
Huzband Posted June 10, 2009 Author Share Posted June 10, 2009 I'm tired of screwing with this, so it all goes back tomorrow. I was told last Wed. that I would be getting resistors compliments of the company. They still aren't here, & I don't think they ever will be. Even if they did show up, I'm not interested in hacking up their harness & building my own from the left overs. Too much bs, so I'm done. Link to comment
Firefight911 Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 Now that that is going away, all that is left is for the RT to become a GS! Vroom, vroom!! Link to comment
Nate9k9 Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 Hmmm, GS, that could be contagious Link to comment
Ken H. Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 Hmmm, GS, that could be contagious Yeah, tell me about it. Link to comment
Huzband Posted June 11, 2009 Author Share Posted June 11, 2009 Y'all stop it now, ya hear?!? That darn Matt spent an hour in my garage last night corrupting me with talk of Alaska, S.C. dirt roads, & the like. I hardly slept at all after that. He don't need no help! Link to comment
Lone_RT_rider Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 Y'all stop it now, ya hear?!? That darn Matt spent an hour in my garage last night corrupting me with talk of Alaska, S.C. dirt roads, & the like. I hardly slept at all after that. He don't need no help! Imelda, I thought you had changed your ways..... for shame, for shame.... Link to comment
Matts_12GS Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 I'm a victim I tell you... It's that evil RightSpin. He made me ride his GS. I held on for a year... And then in a moment of weakness a deal popped up. I had to take it. Then, Steve bought me dinner and told me of all nature of offroad adventures... But, I'm happy now... Link to comment
Huzband Posted June 11, 2009 Author Share Posted June 11, 2009 Steve bought me dinner and told me of all nature of offroad adventures... Keep it up. Link to comment
johnlt Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 Ok, 7 pages and still no lights. It's a sad day in BMWST history. No lights on the RT so he's going to buy a GS. Link to comment
OoPEZoO Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 Ok, 7 pages and still no lights. It's a sad day in BMWST history. No lights on the RT so he's going to buy a GS. Thats Danny Link to comment
Huzband Posted June 12, 2009 Author Share Posted June 12, 2009 Nobody said I was buyin'. Just jonesin'. What's new about that? Link to comment
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.