What kind of oil do you use?

[Bud]

I have a 93 K1100LT. Wondering what kind of oil you are using?

[Paul Mihalka]

Any good brand. The general rule is 20/50 in summer and 10/40 in the cold. For a couple of years now I use 10/50 and not worry what temperature it is. BMW has 10/50 and there are other brands. I think Castrol and MobilOne have 10/50 or 15/50 in synthetics.

[rdfrantz]

I've been using Mobil One Red Cap -- now discontinued in favor of New Stuff. Perhaps when the Motorcycle Community sorts out what the new equivelant is, I'll look into it.

 

For now, I'm using Shell Rotella T Synthetic in my bikes (BMWs and Yamaha FJR). It is a Commercial Grade oil, thus having a superb cleaning, long life, and detergent package -- and no VII's. It will work well in virtually every MC application.

 

An additional strong point for me is it's cold starting protection since my Winter starts are in the teens.

 

It's inexpensive and readily available too: $12 for a four quart bottle at every Wal Mart in the US.

 

Good luck with your choice.

[hmeiseles]

I use bmw synthetic in the engine, transmission and final drive.

 

I find the bike runs find. I change engine oil every 6k and transmission and final drive oil every 12k

 

After buying a 15k bike I am not too concerned about the cost the oil.

 

Howard

[ericfoerster]

After buying a 15k bike I am not too concerned about the cost the oil.

 

 

I hope that is not a poke at Dicks ref to the cost of the Rotella oil.

 

A little research on the "C" rated oils will provide some insight as to the quality of oil he and many others are running. They are a very well known and tested oil.

 

Here is some great information:

 

Commercial (Diesel) Oil

The additive packages for C (commercial) certification are designed to promote engine life. The additive packages for C rated oils contain extra buffers and detergents to keep the engine clean and free of acids. C rated oils are far better than S oils at holding and dispersing combustion byproducts and other contaminants, and at not becoming acidic. Traditionally these oils are primarily used in diesel motors, which are very expensive and are expected to last a million miles or more. When an engine rebuild costs $10,000 - $15,000 and puts you out of work for a week or three, you don't mind paying a bit more for your oil. The C certification tests have been largely developed by Mack, Caterpillar, Detroit and Cummins to provide the additives necessary to keep these engines running a long time. The latest commercial certification is CI-4, which includes extra protection for high temperature high revving motors. Since it's designed for diesel motors, they don't care about no stinkin' catalytic thingies, and CAFE is a place where you get a cup of joe and a donut.

 

Although C standards are changed every few years, the older standards are enhanced, not superceded. So, newer higher rated C oils are simply better than older lower rated oils.

 

Although few car owners test their oil regularly, most large trucking companies routinely do oil analysis on their diesel trucks. Used oils are checked for viscosity breakdown, for detergent and dispersant function, and for metal contamination that would indicate engine wear. C oils that don't measure up are quickly run off the market place. To prevent engine wear, the best strategy is to keep deposits off the pistons, rings, and bearings. Therefore, diesel oils typically contain half again more detergents, double the dispersants, and a much more expensive and robust VII package than S type oils. If you go to an auto parts store, convenience store, or grocery store, you'll see that there are dozens of brands of automotive oils, all claiming to be the best. If you look at truck stops, you'll see there are only a very few diesel oils sold, typically Rotella, Delo, and Delvac. Trucking companies find what works for them and won't switch. They're not interested in saving a dollar a gallon on some unknown oil.

 

The C certified oils are all also S certified, just as some S certified oils are also C certified. The best C certified oils are SG, usually SH, sometimes SJ. I don't know of a C certified oil which is SL. The best S certified oils are CF, which is a relatively old and obsolete C standard, and does not include the tests for high speed high temperature engines that CG, CH, and CI have. In fact, CF oil does not meet the current factory standards for Volkswagen or Mercedes diesel passenger cars.

 

The API charges serious money to test an oil and certify it. If the API really tested the oil in their independent lab, and the oil company pays their royalties on time, the oil company gets to display the API seal on their product. Some smaller companies don't pay the API to test their oils and certify them. In these cases, you won't see the API seal, instead you'll see some words like "Meets or exceeds all manufacturers warranty requirements. API Service SJ, SL, CF." It's up to you to decide if you trust this manufacturer to actually test their oil themselves and tell you the truth about the results.

 

This was taken from:

http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Oils1.html

 

I run it in everything I own now...cars, trucks, bikes and mowers.

[ELP_JC]

Very interesting Eric; I thought 'C' oils weren't friendly to catalytic converters, but if they meet 'S' standards, that means they're. Thanks for the info.

JC

[ericfoerster]

JC, this is straight from the Rotella site:

 

Applications • Heavy-duty diesel and mixed fleets in all types of over-the-road service, including engines with EGR • Recommended for diesel powered equipment including those powered by Caterpillar, Cummins, John Deere, Detroit Diesel, Mack, Mercedes-Benz, International, and Volvo engines in all types of service • Off-highway applications where an all-season, universal engine oil is desired, such as construction, mining, logging and agricultural service • Heavy-duty transmission applications requiring Allison C-4 • Gasoline engines, especially the hard-working engines of pick-up trucks, sport-utility vehicles (SUVs), and mini-vans • Passenger cars, light trucks, farm equipment, fork lifts and assorted stationary equipment with automotive type LPG- or LNG-fueled engines where ashless or low-ash oils are not specified by the manufacturer • Detroit Diesel Series 53, 71, and 92 engines operating in ambient temperatures below 0°F use Shell Rotella® T SAE 15W-40 Note: Shell Rotella® T SAE 40 single grade oil is the preferred choice for most Detroit Diesel 2-stroke cycle engines.

October, 2004 Stock # 5053075

[rdfrantz]

Yeah, Eric, Price/Performance comparisons would be foolish if Performance were substandard. And conversely, it seems foolish to overpay for no greater performance. BMW overcharges. Rotella overperforms.

 

An objective view shows that BMW motorcycle motors live in a very clean and low stress environment since their oil is not shared with a clutch, nor chopped up by transmission gears. Any "good oil" will suffice to prevent wear that would shorten life below 200,000 miles or even half again that duration -- barring extreme operation.

 

Ongoing analysis of BMW non-synthetic in the harsher Boxer showed it "had plenty left" after 6,000 mile service intervals. Thus, proper weight Castrol, Valvoline, of any other CURRENT top level oil from a name brand company, synthetic or not, and TOALLY REGARDLESS OF API RATING, would perform similarly, and thus sufficiently. And that would hold true for an water-cooled BMW motorcycle motor too.

 

The stumbling block is "Extreme Use". Boxers overheating - beyond 240F for 30 minutes - degrade conventional oil's lubricating properties by 50% - per ALL the oil producers. Show 7 bars on a boxer and that oil should come out real soon. I wouldn't be as concerned were I using a synthetic oil.

 

Running 9000 miles between oil changes is another example of "Extreme Use". I will do that between now and Fall Torrey as I make two CC rides, and a long and concerted Sport Tour, BEFORE subjecting the bike to The Rigors Of Torrey.

 

While BMW synthetic is a very fine, great performing product, it is only "good oil". I'd be concerned about my Summer Trip if I were only using "good oil". But, I'm not. I'm using Commercial Grade Shell Rotella T.

 

That it costs less is just a bonus. That it's available EVERYWHERE, simply means they made it easy for me to decide to give in and change it behind the Wal Mart in Smallville, Iowa on my way to Torrey.

[glockster]

Eric, I know you used to own a Harley and I think Mr. Franz has owned just about one of everything, would you fella's use this Rotella product in a late model Harley-D twinCam motor?

 

Sorry for the hi-jack, I'm just being curious.

 

Thanks!

[Bruce C]

Eric

Check www.maximausa.com

Bruce C

[gezerbike]

Do you have any concerns that the Rotella product, which I agree is probably as good a product as they come, is only available in the 15/40 in the Synthetic product, and regular Rotella as well ? Don't you think you need that 50 weight in the warmer weather in the air/oil cooled motors ? I've run Castrol Snytec Blend in 20-50 for years in my K-bike and just switched the R 1150 to it with the last oil change. Readily available in most Walmarts and reasonably cheap at about $ 2.25 a qt

[ericfoerster]

Michael, The "C" oils are so good they actually test shear at much better levels:

 

The following is from:

http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Oils1.html

 

This is from that article.

 

I'm also sometimes asked if it's ok to run non-Harley oils in Harley-Davidsons. In my opinion, yes. If you change your engine oil every 3,000 miles or so, you can run pretty much any decent oil. I ran Valvoline in my Harleys for 120,000 miles. For extended oil life or superior protection, I recommend AMSOil, Golden Spectro, Motul 5100 or Mobil-1. Harley recommends a 20w-50 oil, so Rotella or other synthetic diesel oils will not do. However, the 15w-40 diesel oils meet the same film strength standard as 20w-50 oil, and are just fine to run in your Harley. I'm told that the standard Harley oils are made by Sunoco, and the Syn-3 is made by Castrol. The Syn-3 Harley synthetic is primarily a Group III oil, and contains very little PAO or Diester stock. I don't consider the Syn-3 Harley oil either a particularly excellent oil, nor a competitively priced oil.

 

 

Bruce, there is the catch phrase again. It's that meets or exceeds ????

 

Exceeds proposed JASO-MA M/C Specific 4T Specs

Extends drain intervals

Exceeds API SG/CC specs

 

As per the articles I've posted here they are testing their own oils. Not that I don't trust them, I just like the "C" rating much better.

[rdfrantz]

The OPERATIONAL difference between oil rated 40 vs 50 is negligible.

 

50 will "hold up better", so we think. 50 will absorb more heat. However 40 will disipate heat faster, as through the radiator. The NET difference in flow of the oils is not statistically meaningful -- in a running engine, versus "Lab Results".

 

Another instace "Light Oil" working just as well came with the introduction of Mobile 1. The original product was about 15W, and performed WONDERFULLY, even improving mileage because of the fricion reduction. The key point was it did so in NEW engines. Older engine seals wouldn't hold it in, and those with already extreme tolerances showed greater wear with the lighter oil. Hence, Mobile reformulated to heavier weights -- and dropped the fuel saving claims.

 

 

I think the key to using 40 weight oil, or even 30 weight, is that it be one of the new sythetics. These new "syntheses" do not need much in the way of Viscosity Index Improvers (VII), the stuff that rases a BASE weight to a higher one - in 20W 50, it raises the hot pour rate (viscosity) of what measures as 20W at room temperature to what 50 at room temperature would be at ~200F.

 

My concept here is that the VIIs break down, and the lighter esters burn off in 20w 50, and within 1000 miles it becomes "18W 42". A NEW SYNTHETIC, and especially a COMMERCIAL RATED 15W 40 measures 14W 39 after 6000 miles of normal use. This degration be especially true where the oil was run through transmission gears (that literally chop the VII molecules), where 240F+ temperatures are present, the oil is conventionally refined, or the oil is a "low grade" synthetic like those produced 3 to 5 years ago.

 

In any watercooled engine, or any boxer not subject to "high temps", 5W 40CF "New Stuff" is just fine, as would be any synthetic 15w 40Sx. I've seen 140,000 mile cylinders from 3 boxers that used 5w 40 and it was imposible to determine mileage from "looks".

 

 

A Harley is a differnt dog. That mill still has hot spots despite much concerted engineering. I'd follow Harley's recommendations. I believe they still want 20w 50, and that's what I'd use.

 

In a boxer, I've run Mobile 1 15w 40 for 6,000 mile intervals and have way beyond 100,000 miles with no probles, and no great levels of varnish. Early in it's life I ran Valboline conventional 10w 40 in Winter and 20w 50 otherwise but changed at 3,000 mile intervals - mostly because of dust that got past the air filter. Your choice of Castrol Syntec doesn't bother me, and I don't think there's harm ahead from it. But, I know that Rotela T is a better oil, with a better package, so I use it.

 

Best wishes with your choices.

[russell_bynum]

The Rotella synth and other similar oils are rated to 15,000 mile oil change intervals by Cummins for the CTD engine in the Dodge 3/4 and 1-ton pickups. That's an engine that's designed to go 300K miles under heavy-duty usage before it needs a top-end overhaul and the bottom end is good for 1,000,000 miles.

 

This is not your father's Castrol.

[glockster]

A Harley is a differnt dog. That mill still has hot spots despite much concerted engineering. I'd follow Harley's recommendations. I believe they still want 20w 50, and that's what I'd use.

 

Thanks Dick and Eric for the responses.

[Fasterpill]

I've used Mobil 1, Golden Spectro, and of course BMW. I am switching to Shell Rotella T as long as it remains unchanged.

 

Dick, et al., do you have any rules of thumb regarding how many miles between changes in a K12 typically? My gut guess would be 5000 miles for normal use, more or less depending on conditions.

[ghaverkamp]

Dick, et al., do you have any rules of thumb regarding how many miles between changes in a K12 typically? My gut guess would be 5000 miles for normal use, more or less depending on conditions.

 

Well, the maintenance schedule calls for 6K. Your previous K12 occasionally had it changed earlier than that, but only for convenience. To the best of my knowledge, it wasn't the maintenance schedule that led to its demise...

 

I don't understand a lot of the logic tossed about in this thread. With lots of folks (here and elsewhere) showing oil in good shape even over extended usage, I don't see a lot of reason to worry about it.

 

Greg

[rdfrantz]

Phil, Greg's thoughts are indeed similar to mine. And, as Paul said, "Any good brand".

 

I just have additional thoughts in mind.

 

My upcoming vacation trip will produce a change interval of perhaps 9000 miles. That urges me to use a "Better Oil".

 

My bikes get started in OF conditions. That urges me to use a "Better Oil".

 

Some of my bikes run the engine oil through the gearbox <gasp!!>. That urges me to use a "Better Oil".

 

Some of my bikes are harder on oil than others. I love to simplify. That urges me to use a "Better Oil". One oil.

 

Shell Rotella T.

 

 

Best wishes with your choice.

[ghaverkamp]

My upcoming vacation trip will produce a change interval of perhaps 9000 miles. That urges me to use a "Better Oil".

 

But won't a good synthetic go 9000 miles just as well as a better synthetic?

 

I'm not looking to pick a fight (I don't even know the difference in prices, just the qualitative comparisons you've presented and a few years of posted oil analyses here and elsewhere), I'm just wondering if there's any rational reason, or if it's mostly an emotional win.

 

Greg

[Paul Mihalka]

Dick,

Do you use Rotella T dyno oil 15-40, or Rotella T synthetic 5-40? With the hot rating at 40 do you consider them the right oil on a real hot day with real slow traffic in the air/oil cooled BMW bikes? Thanks...

[Fasterpill]

...AND do you enjoy better fuel economy with the lighter weight oil?

[rdfrantz]

Paul, it's my opinion that it doesn't matter. As I said earlier, when oil gets pulled from running engines, there's very little difference between 40w and 50w; 50w absorbs more heat (and thus gets thinner), and 40w sheds the heat faster (and gets thicker).

 

In the Lab, the test to determine the oil "weight", or viscosity, is very abstract. It is determined by Pour Point, essentially at temperatures that are not present, or of no concern, in a RUNNING engine. Inside the engine, the oil is present as a film between parts. The thickness of that film, the difference in it between 40w and 50w is not significant.

 

And further, as I have said, teardown of boxers with over 100,000 miles with 40w synthetic shows no excessive wear. 5w 40 seems to work just fine.

 

 

Greg, what's more important is What Makes Up That Film Thickness. The better the molecules we can get, the less chance for wear. As you suggest, synthetics have the best engine (and gear) lubricating molecules; But are some better than others?

 

Perhaps they are. And certainly, this year's molecules are better than the ones they were able to produce five years ago and earlier. We've had a number and kind of "oil tests", just on this board, that I'm wholly willing to accept and value that shows "good life" for "common good oils".

 

On the other hand, thousands of tests that pull Commercial Grade Oils from engines after 50,000 miles on that oil, suggest keeping it in the engine for another 50,000 miles. Based on the QUALITY of the tests, which oil is suggested to YOU as better to leave in YOUR engine for an extended interval? Especially when it is READILY AVAILABLE, and IT'S COST IS MODERATE?

 

But the molecular structure is not all that's pertinent. Its the component mix (one that doesn't "burn off") and the additive packages that provide not only "extended protection", but also "better current protection".

 

It's very true that in "common use" using a "good oil" will help one's engine last beyond their ownershop cycle. And, that using "great oil" would only extend that life further beyond parting. Where the owner subjects the vehicle to "uncommon use", use toward the extremes (of oil temperature absolutes, as well as oil temperature hours) the end point in their ownership cycle is moved backward, back toward today.

 

Wanting an oil that reduces that backward happy ownership component is not an "emotional issue", it is a rational one.

 

Best wishes.

[dmenace]

There is an interesting article posted in Consumer News for Motorcycles. I do not have the link but it is easy to find on the net using key words consumer news for motorcycles. The bottom line was that Mobil 1 was hands down the best...highest percentage of viscosity maintained over the test period by a significant margin. Castrol syntec followed by Castrol non synthetic were second and third. I'm currently running a new engine so I've got BMW oil (overpriced, overhyped) non synthetic in mine. At 20k I intend to switch to Mobil 1.