What to do if a tire fails

[travelingman]

Had a cousin an his wife go down this week while touring in flordia. It was a new rear tire with less than 500mi on it his wife is in critical condition they where only doing 35mph in a 45 zone he made it about 150ft before he lost it an it high sided an tossed them both . Naturally he an I haven,t really had a chance to talk much because of her condition but he is a veteran rider an they have toured many thousands of miles . But you know thats just something you don,t get to practice an it occurred to me in all the books i,ve read on rideing its not mentioned . I mean of course prevention our pre tip an post trip inspections an being on top of our maintence is really our best defence . But like in his case obviously a road hazard put him in this position . From what little we did talk I don,t think he ran over something right at that location because he said the bike squirmed around a little at first an he thought it was the road surface so he changed lanes but it only got worse . He tapped his rear break got know responce thats when he knew an it started the slow fish tails that ended up in a high side . He said one other thing that I think finished it off for him he told me he tryed to use the front brake . I,ve riden for 43yrs an only had this happen once on a someone elses bike that I was working on . I was lucky but from what I can remember when the back of the bike left center an started back an forth with me trying with all I had to slow these swings down an get it to track again as close to center as possible I just let the bike coast down an loose its speed . But I wasn,t on a fully loaded touring bike with passenger like he was an I was on a back road with no traffic but I was running about 60mph when it started . So that being said if I were in the same situation I might not be so lucky . Theres so many things that can change your options but is there any advice that we can share with each other in the line of what not to do an what might help to get to a half way safe stop or slower speed before we go down .

Mine would be at the first hint of something not feeling right drop your speed an start hunting a place to stop . If your gut is telling you its a rear tire an the bike hasn,t started the unstopable side to side swings you might use some gentle front brake to scrub off some speed maybe even stop if you just stay steady with it . But once it starts those swings an you add that brake while its out of center its gonna high side . IN my case there was know traffic an the road was straight an I was all over it until I got slowed down . I,m gonna put a tire pressure monitor on my bikes even though its been all these years an I always check my pressures before leaveing home . What say you

[upflying]

"because he said the bike squirmed around a little at first an he thought it was the road surface so he changed lanes but it only got worse . He tapped his rear break got know responce thats when he knew an it started the slow fish tail"

 

I think that's the key here. Motorcycles are very sensitive to changes in air pressure and the rider should feel the change. With your cousins's bike "squirming", that should have been a clue to pull over and stop immediately to check things out. Instead he "changed lanes" which induced a lean angle into the flat tire. The resultant was "fish tail" and high side.

A new tire does not mean it was installed correctly or does not have a manufacturing defect. Anything new should be checked after installation for changes. Maybe the bead did not seat correctly and air slowly leaked out.

It's been my experience that motorcycle tires slowly loose air as opposed to a sudden and explosive deflation with a shredded casing flopping around.

Any suspicion of low air pressure should be ridden out with gentle control inputs and easy lean angles. A sudden blowout should be ridden out the same way. A motorcycle is inherently stable you should be able to ride a flat to a safe stop unless you are in a lean.

[Matts_12GS]

I once lost a rear tire on a cruiser thanks to a nail.

 

I felt it squiggle when I changed lanes and by the time I got the bike stopped 200 yards later, the tire was flat. No drama with it though.

[pmdave]

In my experience, with a flat there is first a wiggle feeling, as if the road has grooves or ruts in it. That's your warning to get off the road NOW and check out your tires.

 

If the tire has a sudden failure, say sidewall damage from a piece of sharp debris, there will be a BANG followed by the flat tire wiggling side-to-side. Typically the tire will stay on the rim at road speed, but as you slow down, centrifugal force dissipates, and the rubber starts to flop around on the rim.

 

Avoid any sudden inputs that would upset the bike. Continue to countersteer to control direction. Don't brake. Squeeze the clutch and coast. Get the bike headed toward the shoulder before it really gets out of control.

 

We used to have lots of tire (and tube) failures, so I've had my share. But over the past 20 years or so tires have gotten really tough. And tubeless tires with locking rim beads are a decided advantage. The fantastic reliability of today's tires is part of the problem. We get used to never checking our tires.

 

However, that's not to say motorcycle tires are indestructable. Tires are a complex assembly of fiber (and sometimes steel) belts laminated together with organic rubber compounds. By "organic" we mean more like apples and less like steel.

 

Rubber degrades with excessive heat, ozone or UV (sunlight) exposure. Heat is generated by running tires overloaded and/or low on pressure. Low pressure allows excessive flex which generates heat. Once the tire has been run at speed without sufficient pressure, it has been permanently damaged. Pumping it back up to pressure won't fix the damage, so it's not uncommon for the tire to self-destruct a few hundred miles later. No, it's not a bad tire, but poor maintenance. I've seen people riding around on tires that appeared to be underpressured. I checked one rider's rear tire at 16 psi.

 

There are many different qualities of tires, and many different skill levels of tire mounting techs. I buy quality, name-brand tires from manufacturers with a good reputation. I have my tires mounted by a tech I know and respect. I check my tire pressures before a ride if the machine hasn't been ridden for a week or longer. I check pressures on the road. And often I do a tire inspection at a rest area or after lunch.

 

Rims can also fail, typically from a crack caused by hitting a sharp edge--say a deep pothole. I inspect my rims if I am suspicious about any damage. Depending on the rim, I may have the tech dismount the tire and take the rim home to clean, inspect, and--for spoked rims--true, before taking the wheel back to have the tire installed.

 

Some tires will have a slow leak, perhaps 1psi/day. If a tire is losing pressure regularly, I'd like to know why. Maybe the rubber is just a little porous. Maybe the valve core needs to be changed. Maybe the original rubber valve stem is cracked from ozone and about to fall apart. Maybe there's a nail in the tread.

 

pmdave

 

 

[CoarsegoldKid]

Some tires will have a slow leak, perhaps 1psi/day. If a tire is losing pressure regularly, I'd like to know why. Maybe the rubber is just a little porous. Maybe the valve core needs to be changed. Maybe the original rubber valve stem is cracked from ozone and about to fall apart. Maybe there's a nail in the tread.

 

pmdave

 

 

And sometimes the wheel casting is porous as was the case with a bike I bought used. I was constantly checking and filling the front tire. Finally I put it in the bath tub. Boy was I surprised. Kawasaki replaced the wheel two years out of warranty.

[travelingman]

Thanks guys appreciate the feed back an I hope thers more to come . My cousins accident which by the way they removed a blood clot from her brain 2 days ago an give her a 95% chance of servival . But she has not been conscious since the accident an were praying everything will be OK when she wakes up . But anyway

I just hope riders reading this will make tire pressure a priority as well as staying aware of the condition of there tires .

Another thing I,ve became aware of is when your buying a new tire

look at the build date . Just because its never been mounted dozen,t mean its new . If it happens to be a unpopular size or design it could have been sitting around for years .

An as far as how too ride it out if it goes down pulling over at the slightest hint of a proublem is key . But if all pressure is lost the rim just settles right down into tire. So thats when controling the rear of the machine really becomes an issue . An Dave I never thought about pulling the clutch in I just remember wanting to stay off the brakes . But did you not leave the clutch engauged until your speed an rpm dropped to the bottom of the gear you were in because then engine brakeing would cause the tire to spin on the rim . Although up until that point the motor would help to slow you down some in that high gear but down shifting could cause issues . So clutching it at that point might help it roll straighter until it stoped . I only got one time to practice an hope I never do again

 

[pmdave]

Travelingman,

 

Good point about the build date. Because tire rubber is organic, it degrades over time. As a general rule, I would avoid a tire that's more than 3 years old, and for my vintage bike that gets little use, I'd like a tire made within the year.

 

The date is coded to make it harder for you to decipher, but it's the last four numbers after the DOT imprint. The last two numbers are the year of manufacture. The next two digits are the week of manufacture. So 2109 would be the 21st week of 2009--about July, 2009.

 

I have replaced OEM tires with acceptable tread left, because of ozone cracks forming between the tread blocks, at about 3 years.

 

It's little known, but federal law requires a tire seller to provide a manufacturers registration card. You fill out and send in the card, and in the event of a recall the manufacturer can contact you. Since so few people do this, those who send in registration cards are sometimes offered free test tires--according to a reliable source. You may have to get your own registration card from the tire manufacturer. Most dealers just look at you funny if you ask.

 

pmdave

[Commanderkewl]

I made the HUGE error as a young man of buying an inferior tire. I had a 750 Virago and needed a new rear. DUnlops at the time were too expensive and it was not in the cash till. Sooo. I went to the local hog guy and he just happened to have a CHing a ling brand name tire for X amount of bucks.. It was cheap, it was new and it fit the rim, SO off I go.

 

Fast forward about 3 K miles later ( yeh I was a little hard on em back in the day) and only two minutes after shutting down double the double nickel, Tooling around at 55 now, I had a Whoosh sound come from the rear, and the flip flopping side to side... Yikes

 

I didnt hit the breaks as this was the death knell we always worry about ( boss did a rear blowout and had a lower body cast for 6 months- so that thought was very close to the front of my actions) At 35- Five feet jumps- I was more than eager to get off and take my lumps... Side to side so bad I could not look into the mirrors and check behind me...

 

At 15 I was going MAN I need to jump off NOW!.. At five I felt like I was going side to side still..

 

At 0 I let out my first breath since the ordeal started.. I think I accidently invented Velcro using jeans and vinyl that afternoon.

 

I left the bike on the side of the road and walked back into town...

 

Moral- DOnt buy any tire that will fit- especially a cheap one..

I remember the tire being pretty sticky .. I just had not remembered that I was leaving rubber on the ground as I rode...

 

ALways do a pre flight check- If I had seen the ( here i expect to hear wrath- but I DID learn) 6 inch "Maypop" cord showing, I would not have ridden as fast as I had....

 

I did not know at the time the tire was 6 years old as well.

 

Lesson learned and saved from this error in young judgment....

 

[travelingman]

Good point it always blows my mind when when someone buys a high

dallor bike then goes looking for bargin basement off brand replacement parts or safety equipment .

[LDHack]

I've had at least 6 flats on tubeless tires, all solo riding. In all cases, there's that "I wonder if I'm getting a flat" feeling - road grooves feeling like mentioned above. I've always been able to figure out the correct response, which is "I think I have a flat" and get to a stop right now before the tire is totally deflated. Most flats are relatively slow - not sudden and complete deflation.

 

One I remember well happened at 80 mph, and I was clinching the saddle pretty hard. A number have been in the 60 mph range. Never had a tubeless tire squirm back and forth like you describe, although I had a tube type do that on a early '70's BMW at 40 or so. I think the modern tires are fairly firm and at least I haven't had them fishtail. Your post makes me more concerned about a rear flat, because I've had satisfactory results with the number of flats I've experienced. BTW, all were with high quality tires.

 

I wonder if the added weight and mobility of a passenger added to the accident outcome. A fast and sudden deflation with a passenger could be double bad. Gear attached to the motorcycle doesn't move like a passenger can.

 

However, I clinch the tank with my knees to help stabalize the bike, and I decelerate to a stop and apply soft braking with the pedal because my RT has linked brakes. Smooth deceleration conflicts with the goal to get to a stop before complete tire deflation. Rear flat is definiely a time when linked brakes are undesirable. The goal is to get to a stop ASAP, but not so fast as to cause the rear to fishtail.

[smiller]

Never had a tubeless tire squirm back and forth like you describe, although I had a tube type do that on a early '70's

That's kind of what I was thinking. The bike type isn't mentioned, is it possible that it used a tube-type tire? The description of a squirrelly feeling and then loss of control due to a floppy tire really sounds like a tube-tire MO. I unfortunately know what this feels like (the only time I've ever been down) and why I will never own a street bike with tube tires again.

 

As a comparison I hit something on the road a few years ago on my RT (tubeless tires of course) and afterwards my handling felt a bit vague so I got off at the next exit and stopped in a gas station. Turns out I had a 1-2" gash in the tread of my rear tire! Obviously I probably should have stopped immediately but in any event I was pretty impressed at the amount of control that was available considering the amount of damage to the tire. Every case is different though.

 

I hope your cousin and his wife recover soon.

 

 

[chtucker]

I had a rear go on my tubed rear F650 tire... Felt squirmy and a little bit of a womp womp with the throttle.. Called AAA and got a ride home (40 miles)...

 

Wasn't scary, but it has scared me enough to want TPMS on my F650 and certainly on my next bike.

[travelingman]

The bike they were riding is a 2004 Harley Road King it has the Mag Wheels. I am assumeing they are tubless an the tire brand was a Dunlop like comes on those bikes from the factory.

An now that you mention it the bike I was riding when the rear tire failed was a tube type. My cousins wife is is still with us but its not looking good . You can see there story an updates on her condition on a site called careingbridge.org her name is Martha Rouse just type it in like its all one word know spaceing . All prayers will be appreciated be safe an take care .

[EddyQ]

Never had a tubeless tire squirm back and forth like you describe, although I had a tube type do that on a early '70's

The description of a squirrelly feeling and then loss of control due to a floppy tire really sounds like a tube-tire MO.

 

So, a tube tire bead comes off and makes the bike squirm where as a tubeless does not?? Just curious.

[Dick_at_Lake_Tahoe_NV]

If a tube-type picks up a nail it goes flat almost immediatly. I had that happen on my F650. The bike was a little squirrely, but I used the techniques discussed above--stay off the brakes, pull in the clutch, let the bike slow on its own--and got the bike to an uneventful stop. The bead was off the rim, which made installing a new tube a lot easier. A tubeless tire will typically lose air slowly when a nail is picked up. BTW, it's almost always the rear tire that picks up the nail--the front tire throws it up and the rear tire catches it.

[Dick_at_Lake_Tahoe_NV]

I'm very sorry to hear that Martha passed away this morning--what a tragic loss.

[smiller]

It's as Dick says, a tube-type tire will lose air much more quickly, plus the tire will be more floppy after that happens because the sidewalls aren't as stiff as a tubeless tire. It was my bad luck to have a tube-type flat on the front, quite a handful I will say. Wasn't due to road damage BTW but rather the result of an incompetent mechanic who damaged the tube upon installation.

 

Edit: Just read Dick's second post. OMG, that's so sad...

[GordonB]

I went for a short ride last night with my daughter riding pillion, the minute I pulled from the driveway the bike squirmed in the dip. Next thing my rear tire was howling more as if in a lean than straight up and I thought it was just the added weight of my daughter. So I checked my air pressure this AM before off to work, 31# on the rear. After much visual inspection I found the hole.

The moral? Listen to your bike and react. I am fortunate we weren't on a spirited ride. And had I ridden longer......................

[motorman587]

I guess that tire pressure monitoring system would be a "good" investment now on new bikes??

 

I've had two flats, both fronts with blow value stems, felt the front go stiff, like the power steering power pump failed in a car, slowed down with out making a any sudden speed or steering adjustments and coasted to a stop.

[travelingman]

Gordon B I,m sure glad you were on alert an you an your Daughter got home safe . An your right lots of times a machine will give you a warning if your paying attention . I,m just hopeing that we all come to the realazation that its so easy to ignore or rely on luck to take us out an bring us back safely .

A good pilot will never leave the ground without doing a preflight insp why because he can,t pull over up there if something goes wrong . Well on a bike the tires are all thats between us an disaster can we really afford to take for granted there OK just because they were the last time you rode . I installed my Tpm today wasn,t much to it an I belive its a worth while investment, not a cure all but Gordon you would have known about the nail before you left home .

[tallman]

I guess that tire pressure monitoring system would be a "good" investment now on new bikes??

 

I've had two flats, both fronts with blow value stems, felt the front go stiff, like the power steering power pump failed in a car, slowed down with out making a any sudden speed or steering adjustments and coasted to a stop.

 

Didn't you then continue for

 

 

a while.

 

I remember making a U-turn and coming back to you offering tire repair and air pump

but you said you'd ride it home.

Love those police tires.

[motorman587]

I guess that tire pressure monitoring system would be a "good" investment now on new bikes??

 

I've had two flats, both fronts with blow value stems, felt the front go stiff, like the power steering power pump failed in a car, slowed down with out making a any sudden speed or steering adjustments and coasted to a stop.

 

Didn't you then continue for

 

 

a while.

 

 

 

I remember making a U-turn and coming back to you offering tire repair and air pump

but you said you'd ride it home.

Love those police tires.

 

[travelingman]

motorman sounds like you two know each other i,m interested in what happened to the valve stem in what way did it fail on tallmans bike? In my cousins case we are realatively sure now he ran over a piece of metal in the road . There was a scrap yard right near where the accident happened . A local bike shop an even the cops at the seen said people had alot of flats in that area . His sons went out the day after the wreck an found lots of scrap pieces along side the road , then a fue days later they were back out there an everything was clean as a whistle . Hum! sounds like somebody might be worried about liability but I doubt it could be proved who it belonged too though .

Anyway I sure appreciate all of the responces on this topic just to help us all stay alert maybe learn a little something from the exsperinces of others .

[Beemer_Nancy]

HI all, first post. Been lurking a couple months. I have a 2009 RT (and a F650GS). Haven't had a flat yet but I'm wondering if anyone has any experience with how fast the TPM responds to pressure changes. Theoretically, one could watch the pressure decrease, no?

[travelingman]

I just installed one made by Doran it will alert you with a red flashing light if their is a 2.50 psi loss . You can push a button on the display an get a instant reading . An I also think it alerts imediatly with a audioble tone if it starts loosing so many psi per secound an indicates which tire it is . Mine is a doran modle 360M . Welcome to the site theres alot of good info an great people here with a wealth of knowledge an exsperience .

[brick_haus]

I had a rear blowout riding 2up at 65mph on my Honda CL450 back in 1975. At first it was easy to handle as we both knew not to panic and to make no sudden weight shifts. I simply disengaged the clutch and coasted in the lane until my speed was reduced to a minimum. At about 10mph I started to pull to the shoulder as gingerly as I could and the bike immediatley started fishtailing uncontrollably2 or three times until it finally slid out under us. By that time we were only traveling at "walking" speed and we both literally walked away from the bike on our feet and unscathed. So I say the way to handle that situation is as above only when you do it you should be wearing a helmet, boots and gloves. I did get pretty lucky that day and have never ridden on a bald tire again...with chord showing...

[travelingman]

Disengging the clutch seems to be key from what those who have had a successful stop say. Makes since I guess because any compression braking would just cause the rim to slip inside the tire which could cause it to come off the rim .

[jjg3]

Sorry to hear of your cousin's misadventure.

 

Some may disagree, but personally I think it's impossible to plan for every possible eventuality. Flats happen.

 

I've tried Ride On and had a flat with it on a Triumph America. But that bike had tubes and Ride On is not at its best with tube tires.

 

Would highly recommend Tiregard pressure monitor. I've ridden on a flat more times than I'd care to mention (tubes and tubeless). Both times the tires gave me plenty of warning, I'm lazy enough not to check pressures everyday and just dim enough not to take notice of a bike handling badly. Tiregard shows constant pressure and at the press of a button will show temp. It's not waterproof, but I keep it in the tankbag and turn it on whenever I get on the bike.

installation guide/tech information