Which would you buy first?

[Matts_12GS]

I had a no speed tip over on the BRP Saturday which left my left cylinder hydraulically locked with oil.

 

I tried to start it and it made a gawd-awful thump.

I pulled both plugs, ran the starter to clear both bores and even got it running on one cylinder... The starter began to make a noise after I put it all back together.

 

I got a jump start and ever so carefully rode it 90 miles back to the hotel. I put it on a battery tender to charge. To no avail...

 

Every time I hit the starter, the clock resets...

 

So.... I'm leaving in 3 weeks to ride a LD rally and need the bike in shape and starting... Which would you buy, a battery, a starter or an alternator?

[Tony_K]

You can test all 3 items for how well they work before buying anything.

 

Don't throw money at stuff till you know it's really not working.

[Bill_Walker]

Sounds like your piston rings weren't sealing very well, which makes me think you might need more than just the parts you listed. Rebuild time? I'm no expert, so don't do it just on my say-so, but something about this sounds fishy.

[ragtoplvr]

I would buy a compression gauge first. If not a mechanic, then take it to one. Buying things now is throwing good money after potentially bad money. It also helps to tell us which make and model of bike....

 

If the compression is low on the hydrolocked cylinder, I would look for another bike of compatible model and year. Then disassemble this one and sell most components, keeping transmission, wheeles, final drive, and maybe driveshaft. You can get most of your money back, and learn how to work on the bike without the fear of reassembly,

 

Good Luck

 

Rod

[Matts_12GS]

Let me add this...

 

The bike, once jump started ran like a top 90 miles back to the hotel. I replaced the battery and the bike started (albeit painfully slowly) 6 times with the plugs in and ran like great the 500 miles home. It smoked maybe the first 10 miles after the tip, and oil leaked out of the joint between the slip on and the resonator.

 

All of those lead me to believe that it's not something internal as the bike ran just too well coming back from NC. It even got about 1-2 mpg better than usual.

 

I alternately turned on my motolights (70W total) and my heated grips, while runnning my GPS and my 50W HID set up. During those tests, the dash lights never flickered or dimmed despite RPM.

 

Tonight, I pulled both plugs and spun the motor. It didn't reset the clock but spun slower than I would expect a new battery that has run for 500 miles. I did notice that with the lower compression, the clock did not reset.

 

I'm not afraid to work on the bike, even though I'd rather not split the cases. I'll check compression in a day or so.

 

I have my suspicion, anyone change their opinions?

[skinny_tom (aka boney)]

Sounds like the starter to me.

[BanjoBoy]

I'm no mechanic, but I'd take a good look at the battery. When the bike tipped, bumping the battery on it's side may have funked up the plates inside?

There's my $0.02

 

Good luck,

[Matts_12GS]

could be, but i have replaced the battery since then.

[T__]

Matts, do a voltage drop test from the battery (+) post to the starter large cable stud,, then do a voltage drop test from the battery (-) post to a CLEAN spot on the starter case.. Do this while cranking with the spark plugs installed..

 

If the voltage drop is within reason but the RID still resets & the engine cranks slowly suspect your starter as the problem (possibly a loose magnet or internal armature dragging)..

 

How long was it on it’s side? Difficult to believe the oil got past the rings or intake valve guides in a short time.. Is/was the air box lower chamber full of oil?

 

Twisty

 

[Matts_12GS]

Twisty, bike was on it's side maybe 45 seconds, a minute at the outset. Long enough for me to swear at the car the swerved around me as the bike went down... @#$%@$#$%@$%@

 

Air box is the likely culprit, I think I had overfilled the crankcase, coupled with a lot of high RPM riding the previous couple days.

 

You've confirmed my suspicions as well of a loose magnet, Dianne's started acted the same way when it came apart last summer so I am leaving that way.

[AndyS]

I had a no speed tip over on the BRP Saturday which left my left cylinder hydraulically locked with oil.

 

I tried to start it and it made a gawd-awful thump.

I pulled both plugs, ran the starter to clear both bores and even got it running on one cylinder... The starter began to make a noise after I put it all back together.

 

I got a jump start and ever so carefully rode it 90 miles back to the hotel. I put it on a battery tender to charge. To no avail...

 

Every time I hit the starter, the clock resets...

 

So.... I'm leaving in 3 weeks to ride a LD rally and need the bike in shape and starting... Which would you buy, a battery, a starter or an alternator?

 

Charge the battery and take it to an auto store for them to do a capacity test on it.

 

Also, I'd recommend you remove the starter motor, check the flywheel starter ring to see if you have eaten any teeth. This produces a horrid noise.

 

Also while the starter motor is out, you could clean it and also make sure the magnets are still securely glued in their housings.

 

Andy

[Matts_12GS]

I'm going to put the battery on the charger before I head to work.

 

This is very familiar to what I've been experiencing...

[OoPEZoO]

Matt......per what we looked at this weekend in the parking lot, I put my vote in the starter column. Your battery voltage was up above 12V with no load, and dropped to around 6V while the starter was engaged. Once the bike was running, the battery voltage rose to the upper 13V-14V range which shows your alternator appears fine.

 

If you had an alternator or battery issue, I think you would be having problems while riding......especially on a long trip home like you had. It sounds to me like once the bike is running, all is well........BUT getting it started is an issue. I think your starter is pulling high current during startup. I'll bet a local auto parts store can test it for you, or possibly your local dealer.

 

OR.....if you have a local friend with a RT you could talk them into "borrowing" their starter for a day and see what happens.

[Dave in Doodah]

One more vote for starter. I think you baited us to go for the charging system/battery...

The weather is warming up here, but my clock still resets at least once a week on the cooler mornings. but she's got plenty of juice.

[philbytx]

Matt,

How old is yr RT??? If it's an R1100RT, dollars to donuts its the starter. Your bendix could be buggered or, more likely, one or more of the magnets has detached itself from the can.

If you like to repair this guy, John, has all the parts you need to fix up your existing starter. Otherwise, he has new Valeo starters for around $200. Good service and prices....I have used him on several occasions, including a new starter and HES!!!

 

[outpost22]

My bet is on the starter. Sounds like it's dragging.

 

Matt, I also did the smokescreen thing after a tipover when I first bought the bike. Talk about an embarrassing display

The EPA was after me for months!

[OoPEZoO]

Matt,

How old is yr RT??? If it's an R1100RT, dollars to donuts its the starter. Your bendix could be buggered or, more likely, one or more of the magnets has detached itself from the can.

If you like to repair this guy, John, has all the parts you need to fix up your existing starter. Otherwise, he has new Valeo starters for around $200. Good service and prices....I have used him on several occasions, including a new starter and HES!!!

 

Wow.....thats a nice site. Thanks for the link. I'm gonna save that one

[Matts_12GS]

Yep, I'm sure it's the starter. I have a new battery that will drop to about 6.5V whilst starting but will return to 13.8 as soon as idle is over 1K RPM.

 

I found one from a company in Milledgeville, GA (about a 4 hour ride) and ordered it off the web this morning.. With 3 normal UPS ground shipping this new starter, with a warranty was $111. It'll be here tomorrow too!

[AndyS]

Yep, I'm sure it's the starter. I have a new battery that will drop to about 6.5V whilst starting but will return to 13.8 as soon as idle is over 1K RPM.

 

I found one from a company in Milledgeville, GA (about a 4 hour ride) and ordered it off the web this morning.. With 3 normal UPS ground shipping this new starter, with a warranty was $111. It'll be here tomorrow too!

 

How are the teeth on the flywheel starter ring?

 

Andy

[philbytx]

Andy,

FYI - When the starter on my R1100R crapped out after 3 instances of jamming/failure, I checked the flywheel teeth and I noticed a couple appeared shiny and "chipped" on the outside edges.

 

However, since the install, I have not experienced any starter weirdness or noise at all. Thank the Lord!!!

[eddd]

Yep, I'm sure it's the starter. I have a new battery that will drop to about 6.5V whilst starting but will return to 13.8 as soon as idle is over 1K RPM.

 

I found one from a company in Milledgeville, GA (about a 4 hour ride) and ordered it off the web this morning.. With 3 normal UPS ground shipping this new starter, with a warranty was $111. It'll be here tomorrow too!

 

 

Please keep us posted. I had an "issue" with my starting a month or so ago. The starter just didn't have the powere it used to have. A load test on the battery showed it was fine. The starter draw was OK, and the magnets were all firmly in place. I did clean all connections, which seems to have improved the "issue". That is not to say that my starter is as good as when it was new.

[Matts_12GS]

Soon as I pull the old start out I'll let you know

[Matts_12GS]

And, we have a winner!

 

It was the starter. I didn't look to see where it was binding because I think that's pretty obvious. Why though...? I don't know that I'm convinced this happened as a result of the tip over

 

 

 

[Jeepster]

HOLY KARP. It had to have happened when you had the hydraulically locked engine,

but I had no idea the Valleo starter kicked out THAT kind of torque.

[The Beav]

I think a blind man could verify that as a bad starter!

[eddd]

Nothing that a little JB could fix.

[AndyS]

Soon as I pull the old start out I'll let you know

 

Sorry to harp on Matt, but to see your starter in that condition....how are the teeth all around your flywheel?

They MUST have taken a pounding.

Andy

[T__]

Matt, probably didn’t happen ON the tip over but more than likely happened when trying to crank the hydro locked engine AFTER the tip over..

 

Lots of side load on the nose cone & nose bushing when the locked up engine forced the starter drive to climb out of the flywheel ring gear engagement under full torque..

 

I have seen a few auto starters do the same thing (usually when the engine cross fires & tries to turn the engine backwards while cranking forwards)..

 

 

Twisty

 

[OoPEZoO]

Wow....at least none of it broke off and fell into the bell housing. That could have been really really ugly, not to mention scarey as hell.

 

I also think that it must have happened on that first attempted restart after the hydrolock.

 

As far as your starter/flywheel teeth. Do they really look that bad in person, or is it just a reflection from the camera? I know when I rebuilt my transmission, from a distance my starter teeth looked aweful. As soon as you got close and ran you fingers across the teeth it was obvious that while the teeth looked discolored and worn, there actually wasn't any damage to the teeth. They had just been polished to a strange looking finish due to many years of starting a motorcycle.

[Matts_12GS]

The fly wheel teeth look ok, I haven't seen any obvious damage. They look about like the starter teeth, discolored but not chipped up and funky.

 

My brother speculated that the weakness of the snout may be a design feature to prevent bending a rod or doing serious internal damage when the nut on the seat keeps thumbing the button.

[AndyS]

The fly wheel teeth look ok,

 

Phew! Nice one Matt.

 

Andy

[LGannon]

How easily does a cylinder get hydrolocked after a tip over? I've dropped mine a couple of times and never had a problem, should one be worried when starting a "boxer" after it being on its side?

[T__]

Les, not likely unless it lies on it’s side for quite a while.. Not sure but it kind of sounds like Matt’s problem was from the lower air box full of oil that ran in through the intake tube..

 

I guess if you park your bike on the side stand & it smokes profusely when you start it then maybe there is enough ring leakage to allow oil to enter the combustion chamber on tip over..

 

I know of a lot of people that have parking lot tip overs & no one that I know has had a hydro lock problem.. Most don’t even smoke on the re-start..

 

I guess if you plan on tipping over keep your air box drained..

 

 

Twisty

 

[Matts_12GS]

I agree with that Twisty.

I'm going to double check and make sure the drains are clear, etc...

Even if I have to get the drill out... HAAHAHAHHAHAHAHAAH!!!

[tallman]

Matt, I'd buy a starter.

Just a guess.

[BFish]

The fly wheel teeth look ok, I haven't seen any obvious damage. They look about like the starter teeth, discolored but not chipped up and funky.

 

My brother speculated that the weakness of the snout may be a design feature to prevent bending a rod or doing serious internal damage when the nut on the seat keeps thumbing the button.

 

danny can fix the teeth if necessary, correct?

 

Matt...sorry for the mechanical, but impressed with your acumen. i've enjoyed following your investigative motoengineering.

[Richard_D]

Knowing Matt , He probably passed out for an hour and thought it was only a minute ! Sorry Matt , I couldn't resist.

[OoPEZoO]

Matt, I'd buy a starter.

Just a guess.

 

better late than never Tim

 

We missed you in Maggie Valley

[Jim Moore]

Matt, I'd buy a starter.

Just a guess.

You're a mechanic, aren't you?!

[Matts_12GS]

Matt, I'd buy a starter.

Just a guess.

You're a mechanic, aren't you?!

 

He sure is, that's why he's guessing with OPM!

[TyTass]

Well, now we definitely know what that horrible thump was when you tried to start your bike that day. Yuk!

 

Couldn't have even imagined that at the time. Multiple problems. A strange combination of events, that's for sure. Glad to know that's all it was.

 

Also happy you fixed it in time for the Redwing 19 ride (even though you could have ridden the Wee-Strom). Good job Matt & folks.

[Matts_12GS]

As a follow on, it seems the battery I warranteed on Sunday is NOT a m/c battery after all. No wonder it's failing again... My local dealer for the store is going to credit that cost to the purchase of a PC680 tomorrow.

[Selden]

Every time I hit the starter, the clock resets...

The lightbulb just went off in my head.

 

Twice in the past year my 1999 RT has started, run for a second or so, then died. Each time, the next attempt to restart produced a weak starter sound, followed by resetting the time in the RID. Next try it's just fine. Two times in 16 months doesn't particularly worry me, but I'm curious about what may be going on.

[Dave in Doodah]

If it's starting okay and then dies, that sounds much different - more like an electrical issue... maybe a short somewhere. Good luck with that, but the experts will weigh in, I am sure.

[Matts_12GS]

I'd chunk the battery. sounds like there's something amiss in there.

[SKYGZR]

Les, not likely unless it lies on it’s side for quite a while.. Not sure but it kind of sounds like Matt’s problem was from the lower air box full of oil that ran in through the intake tube..

 

I guess if you park your bike on the side stand & it smokes profusely when you start it then maybe there is enough ring leakage to allow oil to enter the combustion chamber on tip over..

 

I know of a lot of people that have parking lot tip overs & no one that I know has had a hydro lock problem.. Most don’t even smoke on the re-start..

 

I guess if you plan on tipping over keep your air box drained..

 

Twisty

 

That might be true if the machine isn't running, but............

 

Here's an update on hydrolock. Yup, it happened, no speed tip over on the right (throttle) side (soft sandy soil with an unexposed rock underneath), engine was running at the time. Hit the kill switch, had riding buddies help get it up and parked. Upon trying to start it, ka-chung, RID blanks out, clock resets, try again, more clunking, jamming noise. Push the machine a couple hundred feet to a solid surface to put on parking stand.

 

Remove front alt belt cover, attempt to rotate, No Go. Remove plugs, attempt, No Go. Remove Starter, nose housing is in two large pieces, one has jammed the flywheel against the bell housing, pinion gear is in two pieces, half still on the shaft, half in the bottom of the housing with the other two pieces. Remove the pieces, plugs were re-installed, got a bit of turn at the crank shaft. Thought all was good, except for the grenaded starter.

 

Tried to bump start, only skipped the rear tire, no revoloutions. Tried in 2nd, through 5th, no go.

 

This happened in Yosemite, at Tuolumne Meadows (now renamed Tipover Meadows). Had to leave machine there, ride bitch on the back of a Triumph 1050 to Tahoe. Next day, rented a U-Haul to retrieve the R, while buddies rode to Sparks to pick up a new Starter from Sierra BMW.

 

Once back to Tahoe, Removed the plugs, and upon turning over the engine at the crank, it spit out a good amount of oil (strong enough to hit the side of the U-Haul box), and even more drained out of the airbox. Installed New Starter, turned it over a few times, no more oil spit out. Installed Plugs, fired up, smoked like crazy, oil dripping out of the headers at the converter.

 

Left the next day, and smoked out the town for awhile...eventually the smoking stopped, and the machine runs just fine.

 

So..words to the wise if this happens.

 

(1) Attempting to bump start in this condition could damage the valve train, or connecting rods, (according to the service manager at Sierra), fortunately, this did not happen in this instance.

 

(2) Prior to attempting to start, pull the plugs, and turn over the engine to make sure the bores are free of oil. Also, open the airbox drain to let any oil drain out.

 

I had read this thread, yet didn't dawn on me to do the above, and now have probably the most expensive starter ever installed in an R Bike.