So Long, Li'l GTO . . .

[Mike]

It's been anticipated for a while, but GM has announced it's retiring the Pontiac brand.

 

It's a little sad, isn't it? Pontiac was the one GM brand that always evoked a performance image across its product line: the original GTO, the Judge, the Trans Am, and more recently, the G8. Sometimes they were a little cheesy, but Pontiac always seemed the quientessential American performance brand (even when they came from Australia).

 

 

[rkd]

yawn

[beemerman2k]

yawn

 

I'm sorry, but this is my feeling, too. GM is the one who sullied the once storied Pontiac name by putting out vehicles like the Aztec (ugly as all sin, but probably an nice SUV otherwise) and that Korean made "LeMans" ("Lemmons", as it was affectionately known). Add to that the fact that Pontiacs were often just rebranded Chevrolet's, furthering that moniker for the company, "Cookie Cutter Car Company", and I said goodbye to these cars many many years ago.

 

When measured by Japanese and European standards, GM and Pontiac ought to fall on their swords for their collective sins.

[Dennis Andress]

So?

 

The interesting part would be if GM were to BK the rest of the business and latter on resurrect the Pontiac name free of encumbrances.

[Mike O]

I thought the gremlin was a butt-ugly car til I saw the Aztek. Overall, a big YAWN

 

Mike O

[rkd]

Forgot to add: As a new stockholder (and tax bailer) wake me up when they shutter Buick, GMC, Saturn and Hummer too.

[Boone60]

I bought a Pontiac Aztek in 2001. I like the look (you R1200 RT/GS guys should know how that is possible) the interior is spacious and it tows what I need. It still gets around 23 mpg, and the best feature is the Versatrak all wheel drive system, which is terrific when driving on ice covered roads or in 8 inches of fresh snow.

[Mike]

I admit it's just nostalgia. There was a time when Pontiac produced some exciting cars, like the original GTO. There was a time when many a red-blooded American boy dreamed of owning a Judge or a Trans Am with a screaming chicken hood decal. Even the big old Bonnevilles had a certain cachet.

 

Yes, I know they blew it. It still saddens me.

[smiller]

I bought a Pontiac Aztek in 2001. I like the look (you R1200 RT/GS guys should know how that is possible)

:grin:

 

 

And regardless what Pontiac has become lusting over a 455SD Trans Am or GTO Judge with hood-mounted tach are indeed fond memories. Not to mention a W-30 442 but Oldsmobile's already gone...

[upflying]

GM accepted a bailout from the government.

The government now owns GM.

Government says, "dump Pontiac".

End of story

 

 

[SageRider]

I bought a Pontiac Aztek in 2001. I like the look (you R1200 RT/GS guys should know how that is possible)

:grin:

...

Ditto!

 

GM lost it in the late 60s when they started making all the brands the same except for a trim piece here and there.

Once that started, who needed different brands???

Sad...

[RavennaAl]

I was actually more sad when Chrysler dropped the Plymouth name a few years ago. For the longest time I had hoped that someday they would bring back the Roadrunner or 'Cuda, which would have looked great if they had done it like they did the new Challenger.

 

I can relate to anyone who will miss Pontiac, I always liked the GTO, but realistically, that model has been gone for over 30 years now. As far as the Trans Am goes, I was hoping that they would use the new Camaro platform to produce these....

 

[baggerchris]

Looks like Saturn and Hummer are on the way out also.

I greived when they axed Olds.

 

Even if they only have themselves to blame, we ALL should be sad that it has come to this. Shades of the British car industry earlier. In 1967 I bought a brand new Triumph GT 6. Biggest piece of crap I ever owned. I haven't owned anything British since.

[russell_bynum]

I'm trying to figure out why any of this matters, other than nostalgia.

 

All of these guys sell the same cars with a few different trim pieces and a different name tag. Who cares me if my Pontiac Trans Am says Chevy Camaro on the rear deck?

 

To me, that sort of thing has always seemed like a colossal waste of marketing money and a dilution of brand identity.

 

Then again, I was amazed when Toyota started unloading their cars from the container ships, taking the "toyota" badges off, putting "lexus" badges on, and jacking up the price....and people were lining up to pay extra for a Toyota with a Lexus badge on it.

 

 

[chrisolson]

What I don't understand is why they also don't dump Buick and the crossover between Chevy and GMC in light trucks and SUVs - but keep the big truck GMC business. In effect do what Toyota and Nissan do ... a low/medium priced brand (Chevy), a luxury brand (Cadillac) but also have a heavy truck brand (GMC) since its already established.

[beemerman2k]

From what I understand, Buick of all makes is a big seller for GM in China :confused:

[BanjoBoy]

I bought a '69 GTO for my lucky wife, back in '88. It was one sweet ride, but we got rid of it in 2000. I could see the writing on the wall. That was a throw back to simpler times, but those times are long gone.

Good by Pontiac, hello Lexus!

[Bullett]

Yep. Nostalgia. That's what its about.

 

Little GTO

[Pilgrim]

Yep. Nostalgia. That's what its about.

 

Little GTO

 

Hell, once you reach a certain age, even nostalgia's not what it used to be.

 

Pilgrim

[upflying]

Now that GM is owned by the government, would you buy a car from our government?

[George Brown]

Good Question - I don't even like buying stamps from them.

[beemerman2k]

Now that GM is owned by the government, would you buy a car from our government?

 

Of course, the ultimate problem here is that too few people were apparently willing to buy these products before the govt takeover, which is what led govt to take them over.

 

I would love to see a total revamp of the American auto industry. Let's see American Cars 2.0 get established in Silicon Valley where innovation can rule the day. Good, reliable cars that are cheap to own and operate would be a refreshing change from the past 40 or so years.

 

Gone are the days of the dinosaurs! They are extinct (and this coming from a native of Detroit, MI)

[Boone60]

I would love to see a total revamp of the American auto industry. Let's see American Cars 2.0 get established in Silicon Valley where innovation can rule the day. Good, reliable cars that are cheap to own and operate would be a refreshing change from the past 40 or so years.

 

Gone are the days of the dinosaurs! They are extinct (and this coming from a native of Detroit, MI)

 

The new GM Volt looks like it might be a very cool car, I hope GM lasts long enough for it to make to a market that is buying.

 

My thought is the slow down for the auto industry is due to people being unable or unwilling to spend such a large amount of money while the job market is so unstable.

[beemerman2k]

To me, the American car companies are a reflection of the pickle American labor finds itself in today. How can you possibly hope to compete with foreign producers when it costs you significantly more to produce your products than it costs them to produce theirs? Some firms have answered the challenge by harnessing patriotism and the unique American culture, such as Harley Davidson. HD is as relavant as any motorcycle manufacturer today because of how they succeeded in redefining themselves. If GM and Chrysler fall, the I suppose Ford will be in a unique position to adopt this same marketing campaign, even though their best selling vehicles are made in Canada and Mexico.

 

How can I, an American software programmer, compete with developers in India who can do the job at a fraction of the cost? How can our car manufacturers? How can many of our other industries (finance, insurance, medical services, higher learning, etc)?

 

Back to the specific example: Americans are going to have to figure out a way to lower the costs of production if we're going to compete in the global marketplace. That means American cars no longer being made in America anymore, or that they are unique enough to justify the extra costs (fuel efficiency, quality, or whatever). Otherwise, the days of the American automaker are numbered regardless of any government intervention.

[smiller]

Some firms have answered the challenge by harnessing patriotism and the unique American culture, such as Harley Davidson. HD is as relavant as any motorcycle manufacturer today because of how they succeeded in redefining themselves.

It should be noted that when HD was on the ropes they were 'bailed out' by the government in the form of tariffs on foreign motorcycles (i.e. a certain group of individuals - buyers of foreign-made bikes - essentially paid a tax to help HD survive in the marketplace.) HD then went on to redefine themselves and succeed greatly. Wonder if there is a lesson there...

 

Back to the specific example: Americans are going to have to figure out a way to lower the costs of production if we're going to compete in the global marketplace.

Competing against foreign countries with a different economic system can be a tricky bit. For instance the health care costs of many foreign manufacturers are subsidized by their governments and taxpayers, instead of added into the price of the vehicle as is done here. Without commenting on which might be best, the bottom line is the bottom line and the money has to come from somewhere. Anyone who doesn't want to pay the cost in taxes needs to be willing to pony up when they buy the car.

[Kitsap]

As a young lad I looked forward to the day I would inherit my moms 68 Firebird 400. All the kids looked when I got dropped off at school. One day she dropped my off in the green beast later to pick me up in a yellow 73 VW Beatle, the saddest day of my young life.

[russell_bynum]

How can I, an American software programmer, compete with developers in India who can do the job at a fraction of the cost? How can our car manufacturers?

 

Don't compete on cost. Make a better product. Provide better service.

 

 

[Dave in Doodah]

Never wanted to buy a Ford, but I will say I am impressed with them keeping off the government funds.

 

Were I king, I'd get the unions out of the picture and, other than that, let the car companies live or die on their own. Would be a good shake-up for them, without the government control. They already had enough gov control to deal with... what with all the safety standards, fleet fuel standards, emission standards, etc, etc, etc.

 

I had a brief stint at Chrysler as a structures/stress engineer. the unions even do their best to honk up the design side of the industry. I hope they will get to take as much of the load of this recession as the companies are.

[Ken H.]

yawn

 

I'm sorry, but this is my feeling, too. GM is the one who sullied the once storied Pontiac name by putting out vehicles like the Aztec (ugly as all sin, but probably an nice SUV otherwise) and that Korean made "LeMans" ("Lemmons", as it was affectionately known). Add to that the fact that Pontiacs were often just rebranded Chevrolet's, furthering that moniker for the company, "Cookie Cutter Car Company", and I said goodbye to these cars many many years ago.

Yes, and more recently the GranAM, G6, and Solstice ringers. Designs that were off the mark before the first one was ever built.

 

Our primary schools turn out uncompetitive students unfit for secondary school/college, our colleges turn out uncompetitive students unfit for industry and our industries turns out products uncompetitive for the market.

 

Yet no one is able to put 2+2 together. Metaphorically and some times literally.

 

[Boone60]

Never wanted to buy a Ford, but I will say I am impressed with them keeping off the government funds.

 

In 2008 Ford had a $14.6 billion loss. If GM and Chrysler shut-down and the parts suppliers follow, it will be interesting to see what happens to Ford.

 

Were I king, I'd get the unions out of the picture and, other than that, let the car companies live or die on their own. Would be a good shake-up for them, without the government control. They already had enough gov control to deal with... what with all the safety standards, fleet fuel standards, emission standards, etc, etc, etc.

 

I had a brief stint at Chrysler as a structures/stress engineer. the unions even do their best to honk up the design side of the industry. I hope they will get to take as much of the load of this recession as the companies are.

 

Your animosity towards the unions is interesting, I'd like to know how the unions were able to honk up the design side of the industry.

[Jake]

Yes, and more recently the GranAM, G6, and Solstice ringers. Designs that were off the mark before the first one was ever built.

 

Our primary schools turn out uncompetitive students unfit for secondary school/college, our colleges turn out uncompetitive students unfit for industry and our industries turns out products uncompetitive for the market.

 

Yet no one is able to put 2+2 together. Metaphorically and some times literally.

 

Wow, and I thought the US educational system had it's challenges. I have swine flu to the South, and lousy schools to the North. Waidddaminute... FOUR! What do I win?

[russell_bynum]

Your animosity towards the unions is interesting, I'd like to know how the unions were able to honk up the design side of the industry.

 

My opinion:

Unions increase the cost of labor and decrease incentive to "go the extra mile". Neither one of those things contribute to helping a company produce good products at a competitive price.

 

For that matter...from a company's perspective, do unions contribute anything positive?

 

Certainly, saying "Unions screwed it all up" is a gross misrepresentation of what happened. The problems at GM are many and unions certainly shouldn't take all the blame. But...if we're talking about what do we need to do to make American car companies not suck anymore...how to maximize worker productivity and minimize the cost of delivering a product to market, it makes sense to look at every angle.

[Ken H.]

Yes, and more recently the GranAM, G6, and Solstice ringers. Designs that were off the mark before the first one was ever built.

 

Our primary schools turn out uncompetitive students unfit for secondary school/college, our colleges turn out uncompetitive students unfit for industry and our industries turns out products uncompetitive for the market.

 

Yet no one is able to put 2+2 together. Metaphorically and some times literally.

 

Wow, and I thought the US educational system had it's challenges. I have swine flu to the South, and lousy schools to the North. Waidddaminute... FOUR! What do I win?

I was speaking as an American. (Which is what I still am even though I live in Canada.)

[Bill_Walker]

GM story: when my wife and her twin sister were about to go off to college in '79, their parents bought them a used, silver Oldsmobile Starfire (the hatchback Chevy Monza clone). Sister's BF went to install a stereo in it (for you youngsters, factory stereos hadn't happened yet. You got a mono AM radio, or if you were really lucky, an AM/FM radio). When he removed the drivers door panel to install a speaker, he found, inside the door, a paper cup with a GM logo on one side and silver paint on the other.

 

Of course, this was the 1970s, the nadir of U.S. automotive quality. Still, what does this say about the motivation of Union labor?

 

Google found me a photo of the offending model. The girls' car wasn't a GT and didn't have any of the stripes:

[Matts_12GS]

I was speaking as an American. (Which is what I still am even though I live in Canada.)

 

But why?

 

The school system does need a great overhaul, but, I am quite certain that what we're seeing is another reflection of the "quality" products produced by predominantly union labor...

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Smoky]

I had this '68 Firebird 400 for the 10 years leading up to 2007.

 

I did lots of work to it, and it was a wonderful car. Long live American muscle!!

 

[UberXY]

I heard an interview with Bob Lutz recently in which he said the Aztek and the Cadillac Cimarron were two of the most embarrassing cars GM ever made.

 

Fortunately for me, the one GM vehicle I own is a 64 Corvette, for which 100% of the parts are available new from non-dealers.

 

But if GM would bring back a water cooled Corvair, I could get interested.

 

 

[Nice n Easy Rider]

 

But if GM would bring back a water cooled Corvair, I could get interested.

My first car was a 1963 Corvair Spyder bought wholesale (so you took your chances on what you were getting) off a used car lot. Fortunately for me, the previous owner appreciated cars. The wheels were cambered for better handling and, the biggest surprise of all, it had disc brakes on all four wheels. With 150 hp and its light weight that car was fun to drive. It had been a toss-up between that and a 64 Impala, 409 with dual four barrels. Probably would have killed myself (and friends) with that one.

 

I always thought the Corvair got a bad rap (drivers not used to rear engines) but I was also lucky to have the modified one I got started with.

[Quinn]

But if GM would bring back a water cooled Corvair, I could get interested.

 

 

 

The Pontiac Fiero was pretty close.

[beemerman2k]

I heard an interview with Bob Lutz recently in which he said the Aztek and the Cadillac Cimarron were two of the most embarrassing cars GM ever made.

 

And this from a company that produced a long line of embarrasing vehicles:

 

-Chevrolet Vega

-Chevrolet Corsica

-Chevrolet Chevette

-Chevrolet Citation (introduced in '79, had to be the worse car from GM ever!)

-Buick (pick one. any model, any year)

 

Just to name a few

[BULLman]

-Buick (pick one. any model, any year)

 

Just to name a few

 

How about the Buick Grand National?

 

[Dave in Doodah]

Your animosity towards the unions is interesting, I'd like to know how the unions were able to honk up the design side of the industry.

 

Sorry for the sweeping generalization, Boone. When I was at Chrysler in 2000, the drafters were unionized (except at JTE - Jeep & Trucks), and the engineers we forbidden to get on the computer and lay one line. Had to go through the drafting pool. I was not used to doing business that way, coming from the aerospace industry, and it was inefficient to me, at best.

 

I was not trying to put all the blame on the auto unions, but I am convinced that the entitlement mentality of the unions is definitely a part of the problem. When Boing mechanics strike, for example, and talk about how their grandpa worked there, their dad worked there and, by God, they have a right to have a job there; it's just wrong. And it's also wrong (to me) for worker bees, who are the employees, to feel they have the right to dictate to management - the employER - the direction of the company (eg. outsourcing, etc.). If you don;t like it, go work somewhere else, or start your own company. Naive, I know, but the right way to think, in my opinion. It's not the mentality this country was originaly based on, and it's sad.

 

PS - I certainly did not mean to put a political slant on this but, when bashing corporate management and handing over the keys to the government, I just think it's fair (and smart) to look at all angles as well (as Russell said) and come up with a rational plan to allow the great resource that is American design and construction of cars and trucks to right itself.

[Lone_RT_rider]

From what I understand, Buick of all makes is a big seller for GM in China :confused:

 

Yep, there freakin everywhere in China. What's interesting to see is all the old Oldsmobile tooling being used with Buick badges on the side of.... wait for it..... Mini-vans. The China companies love them for company cars.

 

Shawn

[Dave McReynolds]

When I was at Chrysler in 2000, the drafters were unionized (except at JTE - Jeep & Trucks), and the engineers we forbidden to get on the computer and lay one line. Had to go through the drafting pool.

 

I am generally a champion of the middle class in general and the blue-collar working person in particular, but I think the worst thing unions have done to poison their own well is to structure work rules such as you describe. Work should be done by whoever can most effectively and efficiently perform the job at hand.

 

I went through a major transition of that type when I became a partner of a major CPA firm. One "perk" of partners and some senior managers in the early '80's was being assigned a personal secretary to take dictation (or transcribe from a dictating machine, at the manager's preference). Then the secretaries would bring back double-spaced rough drafts that would be marked up and sent back for a more refined copy, eventually resulting in a final product. It never seemed like much of a perk to me, as I think spacially rather than sequentially, and I did a lot better just writing things out myself and making circles and arrows to move things around. Then along came the mid and late '80's, and all the managers and partners started learning to use computers. Pretty soon, all the lines and circles disappeared as I learned to cut and paste things myself. I think by the '90's, there was only one partner still using a secretary to take dictation, and the rest of us were creating our own correspondence on the fly. Imagine if the secretaries had been unionized and we had been subject to work rules!

[Boone60]

Very nice, and fun too.

 

Don't think many here would turn down this Buick:

 

 

[beemerman2k]

Very nice, and fun too.

 

Don't think many here would turn down this Buick:

 

 

Holy Cow! Now that's a Buick, baby

 

OK, ok....I stand corrected...Sheesh.

[Ken H.]

I was speaking as an American. (Which is what I still am even though I live in Canada.)

 

But why?

Why?

 

Because I still lament the demise of the USA even though we left.

 

Because I’m concerned for my nieces, nephews, children of friends and family who are getting a sub-standard education that may leave them permanently uncompetitive in the world.

 

[Matts_12GS]

In keeping with the order of the discussion, I'll PM my response Ken.

[Jake]

Ken -

 

I apologize. I guess my well-intended sarcasm was a bit lost in translation. I knew you were speaking as an American.

 

I hope you will take a look at this report from the World Economic Forum, and at least consider that the U.S. isn't as bad a place as it often seems you believe it to be. The U.S. is still the one of the most competitive nations on Earth, (they rank us #1) and even if we were only in the Top Twenty, that wouldn't be so bad.

 

Linky

 

You can take my view with a grain of salt - that'd be ok. I'm the type of guy that would be the last one out carrying the Flag.

[Matts_12GS]

I'm the type of guy that would be the last one out carrying the Flag.