Football coach charged in death of player at practice

[tallman]

Where will this lead us to?

Link

 

A grand jury moves on this heat related death at a practice.

 

Story says 114 heat related deaths in football since 1960.

Who is ultimately responsible?

The coach, the school, the district, EMS?

What restrictions will this bring?

No practice under certain conditions?

My HS had a player killed by lightning strike.

They have a detector in place now and if it goes off, everyone goes inside, pronto.

Is it worth the risk, or should we ban the game?

114 deaths is a lot.

Teddy Roosevelt led a movement to make the game safer way back in my day due to the number of injuries and deaths.

[beemerman2k]

In this era of Sony Playstations, why does anyone need to actaully go outside, get dirty, raise their heartbeat, cause their glands to secrete perspiration, accellerate the burning of excess calories, build muscle tissue, and develop good character? Can't rest, video games, and attention deficit disorder drugs accomplish the same thing -- safely?

 

Sheesh people...:smile:

 

Besides, I'm tired of being the only fat guy around. Misery loves company!

[smiller]

What restrictions will this bring?

No practice under certain conditions?

Well ya... one would hope so. Probably long overdue.

[ghaverkamp]

114 deaths is a lot.

 

114 deaths since 1960? How many people have played have attended high school football practices in high heat conditions since 1960? Millions? Tens of millions?

 

I'm sure it seems like a lot to those parents who have lost a child, but the number actually seems pretty small to me.

[smiller]

I'm sure it seems like a lot to those parents who have lost a child, but the number actually seems pretty small to me.

And acceptable?

[VinnyR11]

I'm sure it seems like a lot to those parents who have lost a child, but the number actually seems pretty small to me.

And acceptable?

 

Hard to tell. If the number is tens of millions, the number of deaths may not be much larger, if at all vs. kids just playing outside.

 

To Jame's point made above. Having kids active in outdoor activities may very well have an overall positive effect on longevity and the avoidance of diseases like diabetes.

 

The coaches do need a little bit of brains regarding how hard to push the kids. I've played for coaches that were incredibly great and others that were total idiots. Not sure how you can change that.

[ghaverkamp]

I'm sure it seems like a lot to those parents who have lost a child, but the number actually seems pretty small to me.

And acceptable?

 

Among all the high school football players who practiced in the heat between 1960 and 2007 around the country, less than 3 died each year because of the heat. And so, because of those 3, we should assume that this is a major problem we must protect against?

 

What is an acceptable number? Zero? There's only one way to get to zero.

 

Then there are those deaths due to injuries from the physical nature of the sport. What number of those are acceptable? There's one surefire way to get rid of those, too.

[smiller]

I don't think that anyone would suggest all outdoor activities be banned, only that high school football practice should be considered the game that it is, vs. some kind of military training.

[Lawman]

I don't think that anyone would suggest all outdoor activities be banned, only that high school football practice should be considered the game that it is, vs. some kind of military training.

 

Military training can go a long ways in preparing a young man to play football

[bakerzdosen]

When did high school football become compulsory?

 

IMHO, if you don't like the coach's tactics, you complain or quit and find some thing else to do.

[smiller]

Military training can go a long ways in preparing a young man to play football

Now that I'll buy...

[Fugu]

I've played for coaches that were incredibly great and others that were total idiots. Not sure how you can change that.

 

Fire the idiots.

 

I had one such idiot, in high school. From the "old school"- no water during practice because it will make you bloated and soft. The guy that just passed out due to heat stroke? He must be a pansy.

 

A few phone calls from concerned parents took care of it, but it took those players telling their parents.

 

[Gregori]

Give me a break - it's not exactly an epidemic.

 

From the article: (Emphasis mine)

"From 1960 through 2007, there were 114 heat stroke cases that resulted in death on all levels of football from sandlot to the pros, according to a report compiled by Dr. Frederick Mueller at the University of North Carolina for the American Football Coaches Association in February 2008."

 

So 116 deaths are not all HS players - the HS distribution isn't cited, but it's certainly going to be less.

How many (bicycle/playground/soccer/cafeteria food) deaths have there been over the last 47 years?

 

I feel bad for the family of *any* kid who dies - but should we really legislate how football practice is handled?

Nanny state isn't such a far-fetched idea after all...

[CoarsegoldKid]

I think 114 degrees is to hot to be outside. Period. So on days determined to be too hot/humid, each school district can construct guidelines, the team heads indoors for some other aspect of training. Weight training. How to eat right. Maybe even homework. Wouldn't hurt.

[SeanC]

I can understand the kid's parents suing the school, the coach losing his job, etc., but homicide?

[Mike]

Where will this lead us to?

Link

 

A grand jury moves on this heat related death at a practice.

 

Story says 114 heat related deaths in football since 1960.

 

While it's a terrible tragedy for the kid's family, this doesn't strike me as a huge number when you consider the millions who have played the sport over that near-fifty year period.

 

Speaking as someone who was heavily involved in sports as a high school student, I did see coaches do some really dumb stuff. Mostly it was because they were untrained and poorly funded. One incident that I still recall is being told by my basketball coach to "run off" a knee injury that involved lots of torn cartilage and ligaments. The guy had me running forever . . . and it didn't seem to help very much.

 

 

 

[smiller]

I can understand the kid's parents suing the school, the coach losing his job, etc., but homicide?

I would suppose that they mean as in 'criminally negligent.' It does seem rather severe but we don't have the facts, perhaps some really stupid decisions were made that rise to that level, or at least so thought the grand jury. Hard to say without more information.

[David]

I'm sure it seems like a lot to those parents who have lost a child, but the number actually seems pretty small to me.

And acceptable?

 

Yes.

 

Someone needs to compare this with bicycling, basketball, and soccer.

[Firefight911]

I'm sure it seems like a lot to those parents who have lost a child, but the number actually seems pretty small to me.

And acceptable?

 

Yes.

 

Someone needs to compare this with bicycling, basketball, and soccer.

 

And don't forget to add walking across the street.

[bakerzdosen]

I'm sure it seems like a lot to those parents who have lost a child, but the number actually seems pretty small to me.

And acceptable?

 

Yes.

 

Someone needs to compare this with bicycling, basketball, and soccer.

Or motorcycling. Not that anyone here would ever do such a thing at a young age...

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

I can understand the kid's parents suing the school, the coach losing his job, etc., but homicide?

I would suppose that they mean as in 'criminally negligent.' It does seem rather severe but we don't have the facts, perhaps some really stupid decisions were made that rise to that level, or at least so thought the grand jury. Hard to say without more information.

 

Stupid legal question here:

 

What is the distinction between "negligent homicide" and "manslaughter?" When is one charge warranted instead of the other, and what are the differences in (possible) penalties?

[AZKomet]

Negligent homicide- is the killing of another person through gross negligence or without malice. It often includes death that is the result of the negligent operation of a motor vehicle, which includes the operation of a boat or snowmobile. It is characterized as a death caused by death by conduct that grossly deviated from ordinary care. Negligent homicide may be charged as a lesser-included offense of manslaughter. It is also sometimes referred to as "involuntary manslaughter". State laws vary, so local law should be consulted for specific requirements.

 

MANSLAUGHTER - The unlawful killing of a human being without malice or premeditation, either express or implied; distinguished from murder, which requires malicious intent.

 

The distinctions between manslaughter and murder, consists in the following: In the former, though the act which occasions the death be unlawful, or likely to be attended with bodily mischief, yet the malice, either express or implied, which is the very essence of murder, is presumed to be wanting in manslaughter.

 

It also differs from murder in this, that there can be no accessaries before the fact, there having been no time for premeditation. Manslaugbter is voluntary, when it happens upon a sudden heat; or involuntary, when it takes place in the commission of some unlawful act.

 

The cases of manslaughter may be classed as follows those which take place in consequence of: 1. Provocation. 2. Mutual combat. 3. Resistance to public officers, etc. 4. Killing in the prosecution of an unlawful or wanton act. 5. Killing in the prosecution of a lawful act, improperly performed, or performed without lawful authority.

 

The provocation which reduces the killing from murder to manslaughter is an answer to the presumption of malice which the law raises in every case of homicide; it is therefore no answer when express malice is proved and to be available the provocation must have been reasonable and recent, for no words or slight provocation will be sufficient, and if the party has had time to cool, malice will be inferred.

 

In cases of mutual combat, it is generally manslaughter only when one of the parties is killed. When death ensues from duelling the rule is different, and such killing is murder.

 

The killing of an officer by resistance to him while acting under lawful authority is murder; but if the officer be acting under a void or illegal authority, or out of his jurisdiction, the killing is manslaughter, or excusable homicide, according to the circumstances of the case.

 

Killing a person while doing an act of mere wantonness, is manslaughter as, if a person throws down stones in a coal-pit, by which a man is killed, although the offender was only a trespasser.

 

When death ensues from the performance of a lawful act, it may, in consequence of the negligence of the offender, amount to manslaughter. For instance, if the death has been occasioned by negligent driving. Again, when death ensues, from the gross negligence of a medical or surgical practitioner, it is manslaughter.

 

 

Clear as mud???

[SeanC]

I'm not clear on the distinction either, but even manslaughter seems severe. Any criminal charge seems severe, unless, say, the coach withheld water from the kid, singled him out for punitive action (e.g., extra wind-sprints, etc.), or in some way understood death was a likely outcome.

 

Of course, as Seth pointed out, we don't know many of the facts surrounding the case.

 

Re: David's comments, I broke my neck (along with my pelvis and shoulder) in a ski racing accident when I was 17. I was hospitalized for an infection that set in after an ordinary crash in a bicycle race. I broke a bone in my foot triple jumping. I dislocated my shoulder wrestling. Etc, etc. Football, however, never gave me anything more serious than bruises.

[AZKomet]

 

Tragic loss here. I am sure all involved are suffering this sad day. Coach, family, friends, etc.

 

I find it interesting that no post mortem exam was performed. The fact of the matter is that healthy 15 y.o kids just don't die for some unknown reason. And while his body temp was 107 degrees with heat stroke the probable cause there may be aggravating circumstances that was contributory to the death.

 

Not all 15 y.o. kids have a developed hypothalmus. There also may be another disease process that went unnoticed by not performing a post-mortem exam.

 

If I were a defense attorney I would be all over this one...

 

And being from a very hot state I can avow that people die all the time here from heat related issues. Most are elderly or not from this state. They come to see the desert and next thing ya know...POOF dead! No water or not enough...this place in the summer is nothing to mess with.

 

Hundreds of immigrants have died crossing into the desert from Mexico. I forget the count but it is way up there.

 

In this case there is no doubt that a GJ found probable cause to indict. However, anyone knows that one can indict your grandmother in front of a GJ. The process is simple and typically one sided....that of the LEO and the prosecutor asking the q's.

 

Conviction now is going to be an issue. And what are the prosecutors to do with "other" cases such as this? There are no statute of limitations on homicide. Do all of the cold cases get opened and the coaches get indicted?

 

No doubt the reasonable person doctrine will come into play here. However, there are many q's I have in the defense of the coach.

 

Personally one should know that heat and exercise is a BAD combination under sweltering conditions. I would like to follow this case and see where it leads. Trials are unpredictable. I have seen cases that clearly should not be in court and viola! A conviction...others that should be in court never make it. EVEN ONES THAT SHOULD BE THERE are acquitted by a jury for reasons that I have sometimes have not understood.

 

Then there are the jurors who visit the defendant in jail....once discovered the case is over. i have seen female jurors marry murderers who were acquitted but clearly guilty. Another story though.....

[russell_bynum]

I think 114 degrees is to hot to be outside. Period. So on days determined to be too hot/humid, each school district can construct guidelines, the team heads indoors for some other aspect of training. Weight training. How to eat right. Maybe even homework. Wouldn't hurt.

 

LOL! Have you ever been to Texas in the summer?

[ghaverkamp]

I think 114 degrees is to hot to be outside. Period. So on days determined to be too hot/humid, each school district can construct guidelines, the team heads indoors for some other aspect of training. Weight training. How to eat right. Maybe even homework. Wouldn't hurt.

 

LOL! Have you ever been to Texas in the summer?

 

Yeah, but it's not like they play high school football in Texas.

[Lawman]

I think 114 degrees is to hot to be outside. Period. So on days determined to be too hot/humid, each school district can construct guidelines, the team heads indoors for some other aspect of training. Weight training. How to eat right. Maybe even homework. Wouldn't hurt.

 

I'm lost...Taken from the article...

 

"The heat index, a measure of how hot it feels based on temperature and humidity, was 94 degrees that day."

 

114 deaths..

 

[SageRider]

I think 114 degrees is to hot to be outside. Period....

Joe,

Where did the 114 degrees come from?

In the incident linked to by the OP, the heat index was 94 degrees.

[tallman]

I'm sure it seems like a lot to those parents who have lost a child, but the number actually seems pretty small to me.

And acceptable?

 

Yes.

 

Someone needs to compare this with bicycling, basketball, and soccer.

 

David,

Basketball is actually #1 for boy's sports.

 

 

For girls, try this on.

Since 1995, (from memory, 123 deaths and over 700 catastrophic spine injuries resulting in paralysis).

Cheerleader are 3% of the millions of female HS athletes and yet have 65% of injuries.

In college, insurance claims from cheerleading are #2 behind football.