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Emergency Braking New 12RT


bland

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Picked up new 09 12RT 11/6 and have justed completed 600 mile break in. Wow what a bike! On my 02 1150 Rt dealer and ERC said brake using both front and rear so thats what I was doing. Dealer said on the 1150 you had 90% braking front and 10% rear. Manual for 12rt says use front brake only. Appreciate any input on this as well as experiences at high speed emergency stops.

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The manual is speaking to the braking power itself, but it's always good to use both so that you'll have the right instincts if you get on a non-linked bike and have to stop quickly. It won't make hardly any difference on a sport bike, since the rear will get very light, but it'll make a very significant difference on a touring bike.

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Fightingpiper

I have gotten out of the habit of using the back brake on my RT but I don't ride any other bike. The linked ABS works great and I only use the front. I swear by them after a quick stop at freeway speeds on my way the last years UN. In North Dakota there is a rest stop that is in the middle of the east/west lanes so the exit is on the left. I was passing an older couple in an Crown Vic with Florida plates in the left lane. When I was at his back quarter panel he deceides at the last minute he wants to go to the rest stop. With out looking or signaling he swings through my lane to try and make the exit. I Grabbed a large handful of the front brake at 80mph and his bumper just missed my front tire. After almost wetting myself I hit the horn and made a lot of WTF hand gestures. After that I have a great respect for the stabilty of the RT under heavy braking.

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With the R1200RT you have a much better brake setup than with the R1150RT. For general stopping, emergency or not, you can still get full braking power using only the hand lever, but for slow speed maneuvering or gravel roads it comes in handy to have the pedal only operate the rear brake.

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I have found that on the RT (08 1200) if you use the rear brake at all in normal riding, you are using it too much. On other bikes without linked braking, I use the rear brake roughly 30% when braking normally, or on a slippery surface, but for maximum braking power on dry pavement, or at the track, I never use the rear brake.

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I was passing a vehicle on a dashed line while riding up the canyon near my house one afternoon on my R1200RT when a car parked on the right hand shoulder pulled out and made a u-turn into the lane I was occupying. I had just enough room to pull back into the right hand lane after some rapid braking and deceleration.

 

Not sure if I would still be here if not for the brakes on the RT.

 

I almost always apply front brake only, relying on the linked system, but it varies depending on the circumstances.

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Both brakes gives you 100%. That is how we train and that is how we ride. Why both?? What happens if there is problem and you have not trained to use both. Better to be sure than sorry.

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I would agree that in less than ideal traction conditions both front and rear brakes are required to give you maximum braking, but on clean, dry pavement the front brake on most sport and sport touring bikes will yield up to 100% of the total braking effect. Once you have braked hard enough for the rear wheel to lift off the ground, you have 100% braking and your rear is useless at that point. Any less effort on the front brake in order to keep the rear down will result in less than a 100% braking effort.

 

Presumably, in a panic stop situation, the ABS would sense the condition where traction loss in the rear due to heavy braking is imminent, and would act accordingly.

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I'm definitely with John on this one.

 

First, why would you want to develop your instinctive braking technique based on what works on clean, dry pavement?

 

Second, the front tire on a sport touring bike under very heavy braking is just as likely to slide as lift the rear tire.

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I'll agree with Paul on this one. They are linked brakes and when you use the front lever, both are applied as BMW thinks they should. Earlier on with my bike I used the front lever and the rear pedal for braking like on most bikes. It just made the rear easy to lock up due to 2 inputs to it making it hard to modulate. The front hand lever is good for everything including trail braking in turns except for the slow speeds in gravel for example.

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>First, why would you want to develop your instinctive braking technique based on what works on clean, dry pavement?

 

Because, that is one condition that you might encounter on the roadway. The second is wet, slippery pavement, and the third is everything in between. I will argue that you want to develop your braking technique to adapt to all conditions one might encounter. That comes with practice. You aren't going to use the same rear brake bias in all conditions - it will range from a lot, on a wet oily road, to little or none on dry pavement. If I'm on a sportbike, I almost never use the rear brake in a panic stop since the front is coming up. On a Harley, I almost always use near the same amount of rear brake as front brake, under almost all conditions.

 

It's sort of a moot point anyway with a linked braking system with ABS. As Sardineone points out, with these bikes it's best to just use the front lever, since the rear is automatically taken care of anyway.

 

To be honest, I've never had to brake hard enough on the RT to do either a stoppie (rear wheel lifting up) or have my front slide on me, so I don't know which condition is limiting from experience. Other similar bikes I've ridden (FJR and ST 1300) were capable of doing stoppies. My gut feeling is I could probably stoppie this bike at will if I wanted. I might just do it so I know.

 

I did have the opportunity to track my RT earlier this year. I do like the braking system just fine on the street, but I can tell you that the linked braking system WAS AN IMPEDIMENT at the track. It was smooth and predictable, but it limited my ability to brake through turns, and I certainly could have turned out far better lap times without it.

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russell_bynum
Good for you.

 

ABS sure is a life saver.

 

I didn't see any indication in Sharon's post that ABS had anything to do with it.

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I'll agree with Paul on this one. They are linked brakes and when you use the front lever, both are applied as BMW thinks they should. Earlier on with my bike I used the front lever and the rear pedal for braking like on most bikes. It just made the rear easy to lock up due to 2 inputs to it making it hard to modulate. The front hand lever is good for everything including trail braking in turns except for the slow speeds in gravel for example.

 

 

You locked the rear wheel on a BMW ABS bike by using both brakes?

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It just made the rear easy to lock up due to 2 inputs to it making it hard to modulate.

 

Uh. ok :eek:

 

I should be able to grab two handfulls of front brake while standing on the rear brake doing 45 on wet grass.

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If you are doing slow, tight maneuvers you want to use the rear brake exclusively even on the integrated ABS systems. Touch that front brake with the front wheel when fully turned to the left or right and you will be on the ground. Another reason to not get into the habit of exclusively using the front brake.

 

One problem with the rear brake I have found is it tends to grab, that is, braking force cannot be applied smoothly. Cleaning then lubing the caliper slide pin with disc brake grease restores controllability to the rear brake.

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russell_bynum

These threads always boggle my mind.

 

Here's my position on this:

If you always brake using both brakes, modulating front/rear as necessary, you will be fine when you ride bikes without linked brakes, bikes with partially linked brakes, and bikes with fully linked brakes.

 

Likewise with ABS. If you always practice braking as if you didn't have ABS and you have to modulate brake pressure to keep the wheels turning, then you'll be fine when you ride a bike without ABS and bikes with ABS.

 

If you tailor your braking habits to the particular system that you're using today on this bike you're riding right now, you will be developing habits that may not serve you well when you ride a different bike or when the technology on your current bike fails you.

 

IMO, there should never be any threads about "How should I use the brakes on my ?" Instead the question should be "How should I use the brakes on a motorcycle?"

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ASK RUSSELL

An advice column for those who are afraid to ask.

 

Dear Russell,

How should I use the brakes on my new Sportster?

harley_sportster_1000.jpg

 

signed,

Fear of Flipping from Front Brake :P

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With a car, the technique for braking with ABS is different than without. With ABS, you just press as hard as you want and steer where you want to go; no pumping, no easing up. Without, you modulate and/or steer where you want to slide.

 

Why is that not the same for a bike with ABS?

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These threads always boggle my mind.

 

Here's my position on this:

If you always brake using both brakes, modulating front/rear as necessary, you will be fine when you ride bikes without linked brakes, bikes with partially linked brakes, and bikes with fully linked brakes.

 

Likewise with ABS. If you always practice braking as if you didn't have ABS and you have to modulate brake pressure to keep the wheels turning, then you'll be fine when you ride a bike without ABS and bikes with ABS.

 

If you tailor your braking habits to the particular system that you're using today on this bike you're riding right now, you will be developing habits that may not serve you well when you ride a different bike or when the technology on your current bike fails you.

 

IMO, there should never be any threads about "How should I use the brakes on my ?" Instead the question should be "How should I use the brakes on a motorcycle?"

 

Help me here - I'm struggling a little bit. If the linked braking system automatically applies the correct amount of rear brake with no rider input, wouldn't any additional rear brake application apply too much rear brake?

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Joe Frickin' Friday
With a car, the technique for braking with ABS is different than without. With ABS, you just press as hard as you want and steer where you want to go; no pumping, no easing up. Without, you modulate and/or steer where you want to slide.

 

Why is that not the same for a bike with ABS?

 

For starters, see Russell's earlier post in this thread re: developing habits that transfer well to a wide variety of bikes with different brakes - ABS, linked, traditional, whatever. If you develop a habit of mindlessly crushing the brakes when things get ugly, then things will REALLY get ugly the day you switch to a bike without ABS.

 

Second, if you're willing to practice a bit, you may find that you are able to stop more quickly without using ABS. (most people aren't willing to practice like this though.) The same is true of cars, but the average car driver is neither interested in, nor capable of, developing the skills required to produce the shortest possible stopping distance; it's far easier to just tell folks in high-school driver ed, "look, you wanna stop right away, just stomp that pedal to the floor. 'nuff said."

 

Third, ABS may keep a bike upright if the entire braking event takes place with the bike in a near-vertical orientation, i.e. no aggressive steering/swerve inputs. But ABS activation while the bike is significantly leaned over is likely to end badly. Crushing the brakes while attempting the classic MSF swerve maneuver will probably end up with the bike on the ground.

 

 

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Help me here - I'm struggling a little bit. If the linked braking system automatically applies the correct amount of rear brake with no rider input, wouldn't any additional rear brake application apply too much rear brake?

 

 

 

If you listen carefully on the late style R1200RT you can hear the pressure bias valve snap as it is opened & closed by front vs rear brake pressure.. What ever end supplies the highest pressure to the rear brake will close that valve in it’s favor to control rear braking.. So basically if you stand on the rear brake pedal & build 600 psi in the rear brake system that will apply the rear brake with 600 psi across it’s caliper piston.. Then if you apply the front brake lever real firm & supply 700 psi to the rear brake that will shut the bias valve & send 700 psi across the rear caliper piston.. Then if you stand on the rear brake pedal even harder & up the rear pressure to 800 psi that will close the bias valve again in it’s favor & send 800 psi across the rear caliper piston.. The new R1200RT ABS brake system is a pretty good system as it allows stand alone rear brake apply if no front is used,, more rear brake apply with light front brake apply if using more rear pedal,, somewhat balanced front rear apply from just the front hand leaver,, & in panic mode allows full front brake apply to also balance out the rear,, then ABS function on one or both ends if either end exceeds a predetermined decel rate..

 

Twisty

 

 

 

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Without ABS on a car you can't "pump" your brakes fast enough to have red neck ABS!! Don't pump 'em. Just apply proper pressure to get maximum braking before lock up. When a car locks you slide a little and can let off and properly re-apply. When a bike locks up you go down.

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russell_bynum
With a car, the technique for braking with ABS is different than without. With ABS, you just press as hard as you want and steer where you want to go; no pumping, no easing up. Without, you modulate and/or steer where you want to slide.

 

Why is that not the same for a bike with ABS?

 

For starters, cars don't lean and they aren't hinged in the middle.

 

 

 

 

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With a car, the technique for braking with ABS is different than without. With ABS, you just press as hard as you want and steer where you want to go; no pumping, no easing up. Without, you modulate and/or steer where you want to slide.

 

Why is that not the same for a bike with ABS?

 

 

Quinn, with a car or light duty truck the braking is the same with or without ABS.. But once any one of the 4 wheels enters ABS mode (you can tell by the brake pedal kicker) then you do things differently.. & even then it depends on the type ABS system & if individual wheel,, entire axle,, or full system ABS.. If an older systems that just goes one end ABS or full axle ABS then might as well brake for all you are worth & let the ABS take over.. For maximum braking you really don’t want to let up on the pedal as then the system will have to re-initiate & re-enter the ABS mode (that takes precious time).. If a newer individual wheel ABS or learnable decel system you can still use the brake pedal pressure to modulate to the non slipping wheel(s) while letting the system pulsate the locking wheel(s)..

 

On the non ABS system once any one of the 4 wheel starts to skid you pretty well have to start modulating the entire system yourself based on one or two wheels skidding..

 

 

On a non ABS vehicle you basically modulate the entire braking event based on one or two wheel lock up & your impression of steering control & vehicle yaw..

On the modern 4 channel learnable ABS vehicle you basically brake to the highest traction wheel & allow the ABS system to keep the other less traction wheels from locking or approaching too steep of a decel rate.. In most cases just stomping on the brakes hard as you can will allow the system to maintain a very steep decel curve on each corner individually as the algorithm built into the system watches wheel decel rates vs time & keeps them on a preprogrammed traction threshold..

 

Motorcycle ABS systems have more to deal with.. The (current) motorcycle ABS systems have no defined idea of the percentage of tire traction being used for cornering, leaning,, or weight transfer so the rider has to use more judgment on braking even with an ABS system.. Some of the newer motorcycle systems do have a learnable tire slippage & decel rate so can adapt to some of the non linier stopping issues.. Problem is; on a motorcycle, once all the tire traction is used up the bike becomes unstable or can go down even with ABS.. Plus even with ABS the braking can steal traction from the tire’s cornering so that is an issue.. The other issue is the decel curve.. The ABS system can’t wait until the wheel actually locks up or the bike looses stability & in some low traction events there might not be enough tire traction to allow the wheel to spin up on it’s own again even if the brake is released (especially the end hooked to the engine).. On the other hand the motorcycle ABS system programmer can’t program in such a shallow decel curve to not approach wheel lock up or the stopping distance would be real long compared to a non ABS bike.. Try to stop an ABS motorcycle on loose gravel if you want to see a shallow decel curve (takes a long long ways but doesn’t fall over).. On the other hand if either wheel is allowed to come closer to locking the stopping distance would be shorter but the chance of going down due to the wheel not finding enough traction to spin up again would be higher..

 

The real answer will lie in the future with multi channel ABS systems with lean angle sensors,, tire type pre-programming,, maybe some yaw sensor input,, drive train engine decel drag input,, maybe some suspension movement sensors,, etc..

 

In the mean time I would like to see a rider adjustable system to allow more experienced riders to dial in a steeper decel curve or to change the curves based on tire type & road conditions..

 

 

Twisty

 

 

 

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I use both for the habit benefit mentioned above. I don't figure to ride ONLY this particular bike for the rest of my life. And we do fall back to techniques that are ingrained habits in an emergency situation.

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Help me here - I'm struggling a little bit. If the linked braking system automatically applies the correct amount of rear brake with no rider input, wouldn't any additional rear brake application apply too much rear brake?

 

 

 

If you listen carefully on the late style R1200RT you can hear the pressure bias valve snap as it is opened & closed by front vs rear brake pressure.. What ever end supplies the highest pressure to the rear brake will close that valve in it’s favor to control rear braking.. So basically if you stand on the rear brake pedal & build 600 psi in the rear brake system that will apply the rear brake with 600 psi across it’s caliper piston.. Then if you apply the front brake lever real firm & supply 700 psi to the rear brake that will shut the bias valve & send 700 psi across the rear caliper piston.. Then if you stand on the rear brake pedal even harder & up the rear pressure to 800 psi that will close the bias valve again in it’s favor & send 800 psi across the rear caliper piston.. The new R1200RT ABS brake system is a pretty good system as it allows stand alone rear brake apply if no front is used,, more rear brake apply with light front brake apply if using more rear pedal,, somewhat balanced front rear apply from just the front hand leaver,, & in panic mode allows full front brake apply to also balance out the rear,, then ABS function on one or both ends if either end exceeds a predetermined decel rate..

 

Twisty

 

 

 

 

Thanks for that explination. I find when braking hard in most cases that rear traction is exceeded if I'm using the lever, pedal and engine braking together. The braking pwoer the the big twin on it's own makes the need for rear braking even less. Out of habit I tend to cover bother brakes most of the time, but for most normal stopping I only use the front lever.

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Tim you busted me, brain fart! No I don't lockup the rear wheel with ABS but,the rear is grabby(what I meant to say) using input from the front lever and the foot pedal at the same time.

 

Help me here - I'm struggling a little bit. If the linked braking system automatically applies the correct amount of rear brake with no rider input, wouldn't any additional rear brake application apply too much rear brake?

 

After some of the explanations I can see the arguments that say no. I also can see that it is still two inputs to the rear and for me everything is smoother in execution for THIS linked system using only the front lever predominately for most braking.

 

I'll probably get stoned for saying this but, what the heck! I endorse everyone's right to an opinion. Mine is to ride every bike a bit differently to fit it's idiosyncrasies. The linked system on my 86' Moto Guzzi for example is totally different from the Hex Heads in execution, though effective. The linked power assisted brakes on my R12ST are also effective but, way different in execution from the normal non-assisted non-linked setup. I say ride every bike the same and you don't get the most out of the each one.

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Since I swap between bikes all the time it is clear that the habit of using rear needs to stay with me. On the GS it is interesting how much more braking power the rear brake actually adds. Same on the Ducati. On the RT I have the servo assisted linked ones so they are a little different cmpared to the newer ones. A very good stopper is all I can say.

 

make sure you don't have a car behind you when applying full stopping power or it will for sure lengthen your stopping distance by pushing.

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  • 2 weeks later...
I'm definitely with John on this one.

 

First, why would you want to develop your instinctive braking technique based on what works on clean, dry pavement?

 

Second, the front tire on a sport touring bike under very heavy braking is just as likely to slide as lift the rear tire.

 

 

YUP!

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In the mean time I would like to see a rider adjustable system to allow more experienced riders to dial in a steeper decel curve or to change the curves based on tire type & road conditions..

 

Twisty

 

 

Dear Twisty,

I recently fell off when trying to brake on a stretch of loose gravel followed covering a number of small potholes while travelling round a blind bend at 50 mph. What decel curve setting on the brake adjuster dial should I use to avoid a future recurrence?

 

Signed,

 

"I want to ride like an a Pro"

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In the mean time I would like to see a rider adjustable system to allow more experienced riders to dial in a steeper decel curve or to change the curves based on tire type & road conditions..

 

Twisty

 

 

Dear Twisty,

I recently fell off when trying to brake on a stretch of loose gravel followed covering a number of small potholes while travelling round a blind bend at 50 mph. What decel curve setting on the brake adjuster dial should I use to avoid a future recurrence?

 

Signed,

 

"I want to ride like an a Pro"

 

John, obviously you would need to set the brakes to a more aggressive braking decel curve so you had all your braking done BEFORE you entered a blind curve with gravel on it at 50 mph..

 

Remember, even ABS will not cover up for poor riding habits..

 

I don’t know if your question here is serious or you are just trying to tug in my tail.. If your question really is serious then I apologize for the above comment..

It takes a lot of practice & honed riding skills to properly brake from speed on loose gravel while leaned over in a curve.. Unfortunately even ABS (well the current ABS systems anyhow) cannot tell if you are leaned over in curve on loose gravel so the system has no idea that the majority of your tire traction is already used up for cornering.. I know some of the motorcycle manufacturers in conjunction with the major ABS suppliers are working on future ABS systems that have tie in’s to bank angle sensors & steering head sensors to try to predict tire traction loss to other than just straight line braking..

 

Twisty

 

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I know you wrote Dear Twisty, however how did you fall off? Was it the handle bars went to one side and you fell over? I will give you my $.02 worth braking in a curve with loose gravel. There are two ways to stop a motorcycle in curve. Slow and fast. Slow is gentle apply the brakes. Also depending on how fast you are going on loose gravel you may want to use the just the rear brake to slow. Rear brake only would be if the stopping was not urgent. Once you have slowed to a point that you are about to stop you must stragihten the handle bars to avoid falling or you may lose your balance because the handle bars are tip to one side or the other.

 

Fast is straightening the handle bars and appling the brakes. Depending on the speed and gravel you will straighten the curve. Meaning you will no longer follow the radius of the curve. What this means you may be in the wrong lane, off the road etc.....

 

You have to really scan and read the road when riding because braking depends on your ablility, the road, speed, and any other hazard that you encounter. All this adds to success of you stopping your motorcycle safely.

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Twisty,

 

It was a "tongue-in-cheek" comment.

 

If the such a fixture was ever to be introduced on a road bike, and maybe it's just a matter of time, I, for one, would not have the skill to use it.

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  • 2 weeks later...
SteveSardone

on a bike specific question-I have an '04 r1150rt and I lock up my rear brake very easily. Is my braking system working properly? I also use both brakes but do weight the front brake more than the rear but if I use the rear first I can lock it up??? Not so much fun when not expecting it. Any ideas? I believe the abs is working properly and I can hear the servos. I have also done proper bleeding on abs and wheel circuits. I complained about this to my dealer and they basically blew me off.

 

 

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on a bike specific question-I have an '04 r1150rt and I lock up my rear brake very easily. Is my braking system working properly? I also use both brakes but do weight the front brake more than the rear but if I use the rear first I can lock it up??? Not so much fun when not expecting it. Any ideas? I believe the abs is working properly and I can hear the servos. I have also done proper bleeding on abs and wheel circuits. I complained about this to my dealer and they basically blew me off.

 

 

Steve, those 1150 IABS servo systems do seem to have a sensitive rear brake.. Your 04 should be much better than the older 02 system though..

 

Try just using the front lever only on marginal road conditions as that should apply the correct front & rear brake pressure to prevent rear wheel lock up..

 

On my last 02 1150 IABS bike I installed the earlier 1100 R bike organic rear brake pads as that took some of the grabbiness out of the rear brake..

 

Twisty

 

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thanks Twisty-I was hoping you would weigh in. I can get those pads by ordering rear pads for any year r1100rt?

 

 

Steve, I don’t know when they changed.. The one’s I used came off an early 96 R1100R.. I had a set hanging on my wall & they fit just fine.. I would imagine they will wear quicker though..

 

 

 

Twisty

 

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SteveSardone

is this similar?

 

 

EBC EBC Non Asbestos Organic Pads

 

This EBC Kevlar® series is also called the Non-Asbestos Organic (NAO) series. EBC still uses the famous DuPont Kevlar® fiber in conjunction with other high tech fibers in these brake pads. NAO pads... details

 

Usually ships within 24 hours

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This product fits 2004 BMW R1150RT:

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I'm with John and David on this....always used both brakes and still do. Had to get into that habit riding and racing old Brit bikes dontchaknow :grin:

 

Those of you with iABS try this.....do a brake test using front brake only. Then run the exact same course using the "old" back/front technique.

 

You will (should!!) notice the improved braking when using rear/front rather than front only. It works better, that's the way it is......technology or not :thumbsup:

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Steve,

 

I have an 03 w/iABS and have never experienced such a rear wheel "lock-up"...I can even trail brake using my RT rear brake!!

I would recommend that you go for a ride and just try focussing on using your rear brake only which will enable you to "body learn" the rear brake pedal positioning/pressure.

 

Pick a quiet day and some quiet roads and, trust me on this one, you will definitely acquire a more sensitive foot :thumbsup:

 

 

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russell_bynum
on a bike specific question-I have an '04 r1150rt and I lock up my rear brake very easily. Is my braking system working properly? I also use both brakes but do weight the front brake more than the rear but if I use the rear first I can lock it up??? Not so much fun when not expecting it. Any ideas? I believe the abs is working properly and I can hear the servos. I have also done proper bleeding on abs and wheel circuits. I complained about this to my dealer and they basically blew me off.

 

 

The the wheel actually locked...i.e. It stops turning?

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Steve, at what vehicle speed does your rear wheel lock up? If at anything much above a walking speed that sounds like your ABS isn’t working correctly..

 

You said in your first post

 

” I believe the abs is working properly and I can hear the servos. I have also done proper bleeding on abs and wheel circuits. I complained about this to my dealer and they basically blew me off.”

 

So we just assumed your ABS was working.. Are both your dash general & ABS warning lights working then go off while riding?

 

Is the rear wheel actually sliding & the bike going sideways or is the rear wheel just grabby?

 

Twisty

 

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SteveSardone

This occurs at slower speeds but I admit I haven't tried to activate the abs with just the rear at higher speeds. the abs works if I grab the front brake-I've done it practicing. in answer to your question the rear wheel actually slides and goes sideways. the abs lights work properly. This has probably happened when I'm downshifting for a curve, etc and I use the rear also to slow down and my right hand is occupied with the throttle.

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russell_bynum
This occurs at slower speeds but I admit I haven't tried to activate the abs with just the rear at higher speeds. the abs works if I grab the front brake-I've done it practicing. in answer to your question the rear wheel actually slides and goes sideways. the abs lights work properly. This has probably happened when I'm downshifting for a curve, etc and I use the rear also to slow down and my right hand is occupied with the throttle.

 

Can you do it with the clutch in?

 

ABS will not prevent you from sliding the rear due to excessive engine braking. Try it with the clutch in to take engine braking out of the equation.

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For the past 8 years, once a month we hit the training pad. We put the RTPs to the test and pretty rough on them. None of the fleet of (9 from 2001 to 2006 and the current 9 of 2007) 18 have ever locked up the rear wheel, in curve, low speed etc.........ABS work when it was suppose too.

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SteveSardone

I will try to get out tomorrow and do some testing with all the variables mentioned. Thanks for all the ideas. It is very possible it is engine braking.

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