replacing engine rear main oil seal

[honest Bob]

Got my new oil seal today & it is not like the old one. Parts man says BMW have changed the design 3 times for this one. (97R1100RT) Here's the rub! How deep do I set the new seal. Also it is not obvious which way it should go into the engine. Has anyone had to replace one lately for this model?

[Flyer5]

I have a 2000 rt . That has a 2 seal rear main . The outer one just goes in flush with the rear of the case . Make sure the surface for the outer part of the seal is completely dry and clean . Use a little alcohol and clean it thoroughly . Then a little alcohol for yourself as well . I believe you have a different type breather system than me so there shouldn't be a possibility of blocking it . My seals have to be curled in before pressing in place . A soda can worked cut one end off and smoothed it very well.Slid the seal on the can then slid the can over the crankshaft end . I had a piece of plastic pipe that was perfect for tapping the seal in . Hope this helps . Dave

[honest Bob]

I put mine on just as you said, except found a plastic bottle to ease the seal over the shaft. Mine only has one seal although I was told it had 2. I still don't know whether I put it in frontwards or backwards. The parts man said the writing on the seal should be facing out, (so I did it that way) but this would mean the arrow is in the wrong direction for crank rotation. (I'm assuming the arrow shows crank dirrection) He also said the seal should be .4mm proud. Holy precise Batman!! Anyway thanks for your timely reply. Bob...

[AndyS]

Got my new oil seal today & it is not like the old one. Parts man says BMW have changed the design 3 times for this one. (97R1100RT) Here's the rub! How deep do I set the new seal. Also it is not obvious which way it should go into the engine. Has anyone had to replace one lately for this model?

 

Hopefully someone on this forum will remember seeing this info on this self same forum and post the information on this.

I have done an unsuccessful search, but do remember some pictorial stuff. showing exactly what you want. ie how many seals, methods of inseting them (I seam to remember a coke can method that generated a bit of web activity!), and how far the seals were pushed in.

So, who's got the good memory out there?

 

Andy

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

here's a thread about replacing the crankshaft rear main outer seal on a '99 R1100RT.

 

As for how deep to seat the seal...don't know if the '97 is the same as the '99 in this respect. Is the original seal already removed? If not, simply note the position/orientation of the original seal before removal. If it's already removed...sorry, dunno.

[honest Bob]

Mitch; I took measurements on the old seal but the new seal is designed way different. My real consern is the arrow stamped on the seal. I believe it is there to indicate crank rotation direction. If you look at the part of the seal that wipes on the crank, there are grooves in it which are patterned like a thread. If the seal is inserted with the arrow in the direction of crank rotation then the groves wipe oil towards the sump. (seams like a good thing) If it is inserted the other way around then it wipes oil out of the engine I guess. (not so good) The seal has groves on both sides of the wipe to add to the confusion. Help???

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

Mitch; I took measurements on the old seal but the new seal is designed way different. My real consern is the arrow stamped on the seal. I believe it is there to indicate crank rotation direction. If you look at the part of the seal that wipes on the crank, there are grooves in it which are patterned like a thread. If the seal is inserted with the arrow in the direction of crank rotation then the groves wipe oil towards the sump. (seams like a good thing) If it is inserted the other way around then it wipes oil out of the engine I guess. (not so good) The seal has groves on both sides of the wipe to add to the confusion. Help???

 

Sounds like you might have been given the wrong seal. If I were in your shoes I'd consult the dealer to verify. Bring your old seal with you to show him what was originally installed on the engine.

 

If you'd rather just go ahead and install it:

 

1. when standing behind the bike, facing the front of the bike, the direction of crankshaft rotation is counterclockwise.

 

2. I'd install the new seal so that the outer metal part is at the same depth as that of the original seal.

[honest Bob]

The dealer is on line for me so I am just trusting that what he says is correct. He says the design has been changed twice. Also this is the one they use in service on that model. He states that the seal goes in with the "lettering out" and that the arrow is to be ignored. He said to "set deapth to .40 mm proud". I have it installed that way and I am going to assemble it and fire it up and say the big prayer. If I have to take it apart again because it leaks right away, I may have to cast a spell on the parts man!!! If it dosn't leak, I should probably send him a box of his fav. libation!!

[honest Bob]

Here is an update to this thread. I put the seal in as directed by the parts man as described before. Today I'm surfing for info on seals and come across a site (TOO LATE) with real info about seals. Turns out I was right, the seal should go in with the arrow pointing in the dirrection of the crank shaft rotation. This is because the seal is known as a "Hydrodynamic Seal". They are used on shafts that only turn in one direction. The flexible lip, which rests against and seals the shaft, has helical ribs moulded onto the air side of the lip. This pumps any escaping oil back into the engine. If reversed it can pump oil out of the engine!! HELP!! Has anyone got any experience with installing this seal recently, after being told to put it in backwards??? Did it leak? This is a 97 R1100RT, with only one rear main seal.

[Anton Largiader]

I don't know about any two design changes for that seal. It goes in with the flat side out and the lip bending inward. How did he tell you to install it?

[honest Bob]

He told me to instal it with the lettering facing out, and I explained that the arrow next to the lettering would then point in a direction opposite to the crank rotation. He said that was OK, and that they installed them that way in their shop all the time with no problems. I explained that the helical grooves would then seem to want to direct oil out of the engine, but he was still adament that this was the correct way.

My old seal was installed the way you said, and it's helices would have directed oil back into the engine.

[AndyS]

Got my new oil seal today & it is not like the old one. Parts man says BMW have changed the design 3 times for this one. (97R1100RT) Here's the rub! How deep do I set the new seal. Also it is not obvious which way it should go into the engine. Has anyone had to replace one lately for this model?

 

I have just had a look in the R1150 manual, and the proceedure seems to be fairly straight forward:

1/. Installing the crankshaft-end radial shaft seal as follows.

 

1a/• Shape the lip of the radial shaft seal carefully by

hand.

1b/. Oil the radial shaft seal at the sealing/contact surface.

1c/• Using assembly sleeve,(BMW No. 11 5 702), mount the radial shaft seal with the CLOSED side toward the clutch (transmission) onto sleeve,

1d/. Remove assembly sleeve (leaving the installation sleeve ritted to the oil seal)

1e/• Mount sleeve complete with radial shaft seal on

crankshaft (again, with the closed end facing the transmission)•

1f/. Use drift, (typically BMW No. 11 5 701, together with the

sleeve) to drive the radial shaft seal onto the crankshaft.

1g/. Remove installation sleeve.

 

That's the inner oil seal, now the outer seal -

2/. Installing the clutch-end radial shaft seal

2a/.Shape the lip of the radial shaft seal carefully by hand.

2b/• Oil the radial shaft seal at the sealing/contact surface.

2c/• Using assembly sleeve,(a cone but typically BMW tool No. 11 5 662), mount the radial shaft seal with the closed side

toward the clutch (transmission) onto drift, (tool BMW No. 11 5 661,with handle, BMW No. 00 5 500).

2d/• Remove assembly sleeve (cone lead in tool).

2e/• Using the drift, drive home radial shaft seal.

The manual shows this seal closed face outwards towards transmission and pushed flush with outer casing - which will leave a gap between the 2 oil seals.

 

Andy

[honest Bob]

Many thanks for replying Andy. The jpg's make the procedure very clear. My problem is that my bike is a 97R1100RT which has (according to the parts man) had a new seal designed for it. The old seal (there is just one) was just like the outer one you show, and a no brainer to put in. The new seal has the lettering and direction arrow on the "open side". The old seal letters were on the "closed side. The parts guy was adement that it go in with the letters "facing the trans" or out. I explained to him that the arrow would then point opposite to crank rotation, and he said that was OK. I feel that this will cause oil to be forced out by the seal.

[Anton Largiader]

Bob, I'm not sure if you have a question remaining at this point. It sounds like the seal is in backwards, but I think your only question at this point should be directed at the parts man, asking if he meant that the open side should face the transmission. Forget lettering; that sounds like nothing but confusion. Talk in terms of open side and closed side.

[AndyS]

Hi Bob,

I am with Anton on this one.

I have attached a page from the R1100 manual, and once again it points to the flat (closed) side facing the Transmission and being pushed in flush with the housing.

If I had it in the other way, I personally would remove it and get one fitted as per the manual. The only proviso would be if the BMW Dealer could show me any other documented proof, because the way the oil seal works is to use the mechanical structure to cause a primary seal, but also the partial pressure (in this case within the crancase) to help force the lip against the sealing surface.

 

Andy

[honest Bob]

Anton; I was precise when I spoke to the parts man. I called them 3 times about this. I said that the lettering was on the "open side", so then the lip would be bent away from the seal or opposite to the old seal. He was dead sure that it should go that way. NEW DESIGN (Who am I to argue with someone who does this for a living.)

Anyway it is nearly back together now, and when it is I will run it and if it leaks I will be asking for all new parts no charge and an apology, big time.

[honest Bob]

Andy; I would agree 100% about the flat side facing the trans if it was the same as the old seal. I discussed this with the parts man at length. The seal that I put in does have the lip bent in towards the engine just as the old one did. I just dont like the helices driving in the wrong dirrection.

[Tony_K]

Anyway it is nearly back together now, and when it is I will run it and if it leaks I will be asking for all new parts no charge and an apology, big time.

 

And the answer you will get is.

"Sorry, you installed it wrong. You're not a trained technician. You should have let us do it. Have a nice day."

 

I hope everything goes well for you and your ride is leak free!

 

 

[T__]

Here is an update to this thread. I put the seal in as directed by the parts man as described before. Today I'm surfing for info on seals and come across a site (TOO LATE) with real info about seals. Turns out I was right, the seal should go in with the arrow pointing in the dirrection of the crank shaft rotation. This is because the seal is known as a "Hydrodynamic Seal". They are used on shafts that only turn in one direction. The flexible lip, which rests against and seals the shaft, has helical ribs moulded onto the air side of the lip. This pumps any escaping oil back into the engine. If reversed it can pump oil out of the engine!! HELP!! Has anyone got any experience with installing this seal recently, after being told to put it in backwards??? Did it leak? This is a 97 R1100RT, with only one rear main seal.

 

 

 

Bob, hope you have it figured out by now…

 

I can’t help you with the new design seal as I am not familiar with the new seal design..

 

 

The reason I posted here is because I do work with Hydrodynamic Seals in some of the testing I do..

 

The newer design Hydrodynamic Seals are usually used in difficult to seal applications like high RPM situations or in cases where there is the possibility of shaft walk due to bearing wear or shaft end play (this seems to fit the BMW application)..

 

In all the cases that I have used a (directional) Hydrodynamic Seal the arrow does (has) shown the proper shaft rotation as the Hydrodynamic Seal uses those little angled sipes to direct fluid away from the seal lip contact area.. I have used some non directional Hydrodynamic Seals & those have no directional arrow & the sipes are straight not angled..

 

If you installed that seal with the arrow facing counter to shaft rotation direction I would be somewhat concerned about the info you received on installation.. Maybe at least call a few other BMW dealers to confirm the installation instructions..

 

I have my doubts a you will see an immediate leak if it is installed incorrectly as the lip of the seal should control most of the oil.. If it is going to leak due to improper install direction that will probably happen after a while of usage & probably after a high RPM run with some crank walking..

 

Twisty

 

 

 

 

[honest Bob]

Thanks Twisty; I was beginning to think I may be the only person on earth who had heard of the Hydrodynamic Seal. I am also glad to hear that you think the seal will not leak a great deal, since I was conserned about it contaminating the clutch the first time I fired it up. I will be watching it closely at any rate. Thanks again to everyone who pitched in on this one. I will post again after I have had a chance to test run, so that you know the outcome.

[AndyS]

Thanks Twisty; I was beginning to think I may be the only person on earth who had heard of the Hydrodynamic Seal. I am also glad to hear that you think the seal will not leak a great deal, since I was conserned about it contaminating the clutch the first time I fired it up. I will be watching it closely at any rate. Thanks again to everyone who pitched in on this one. I will post again after I have had a chance to test run, so that you know the outcome.

 

Hi Bob, Unless I am reading Twisty's post (and yours) incorrectly, you say that you DID put it in the way that the parts guy told you to, therefore as per your worries, the spirals WILL be drawing lubricant the wrong way.

 

Twist saud that it will be fine while the lip seal holds out, but if that fails/deteriorates then you WILL have oil drawn out to the clutch housing.

 

I would be VERY sure before I buttoned my bike up. That is an awful lot of work to tear right down from the beginning.

 

Surely worth the wait while you sort it out - maybe directly with BMW Motorad.

 

Andy

[tallman]

Agreed.

A definite case of "he said" "he said" with no documentation in writing.

I would bet the outcome wouldn't be favorable for you.

Better to do it correctly now and sleep better.

Best wishes.

[honest Bob]

You guessed it, she is almost back together now, with the seal in the way the parts man explained. I tried for a while to make some sence of this but I wasn't getting any info, so I went along with the "expert". My bike is not the only thing that lives in my garage, and the other tenants were getting antsy with the snow starting to fly. If it leaks I will just repair it correctly, the way I wanted to do it in the first place, by the way. Not to fret, I actually enjoy working on the bike almost as much as riding it. The lessons being, learn to trust your gut/brain. Life dosn't always give us enough time to be perfect. With regaurd to documentation, a previous lesson taught me to record all phone calls.

[honest Bob]

Here is an update. The bike is back together now an I fired it up (surprise, it started). There is no oil leaking from the 3 min. of idling that it did. I can't ride it now (snow on the ground, no chains) so will have to wait for spring for final analisis. Bob...

[honest Bob]

Here is the update as promised. Took a short ride today (500km) and not a drop! Go figure.

[honest Bob]

An update to the update. Good news and bad news! The bad news first. Twisty was right on, the seal held for a while but eventually started to leak. The good news. It did not get on the clutch and I caught it before very much oil leaked out. This time I will be talking to BMW to get the story on the correct seal part # before I talk to "the parts guy". Some of the confusion may come from the fact that this is a pre May 97 R1100RT. Live and learn. Honest Bob...

[Andrew B]

General rule with all lip seals is "the spring goes on the wet side", that is the side where you want to keep stuff in.

 

I'm lucky with the old Triumph because all the seals and bearings are industrial sizes, so I can buy them from engineering supply shops.

[honest Bob]

Andy; Totally agree, except this seal has no spring. Look back to page 2 where Twistie gave a good explanation of why. BTW I actually had an "industrial" spring lip seal to fit it and it probably would have been a better choice (for a while) than the one they sent me. Bob...

[Andrew B]

You can get industrial lip seals with double lips, IME seals are pretty reliable until Mr Play appears in a bearing on the shaft.

 

I flicked back to the original article and the various methods tried with seals. I must say that I have never attempted to fit a seal dry, I always give a dollop of grease to the seal and shaft before fitting. I can see that good measurements with regards to depth need to be taken before fitting the outer seal so as not to drive it in too deep.

I would have though a sleeve made of plastic from a 2 liter drink bottle would be more than tough enough to make a guide for passing the inner seal lip over the crankshaft cutout, especially if it was gooped in grease as well.

[honest Bob]

Andy: The other spring lip seal I had is a two lip, but like you say (and Twisty) the BMW is likely to walk the crank. The repair manuals I have, also suggest lubing the seal before fitting it. I had measured the depth of the old seal before removing it, but the new seal Bob's sent was entirely different in specs. I made the assumption that the important depth is where the seal lip ends up, and extrapolated from there. You are correct about the plastic sleeve doing the job (I used it) and I think there is less fear of damaging the lip sliding it over plastic rather than a coke can as was also suggested. Bob...

[Andrew B]

Undoubtedly BMW will recommend "Shultze" seal lube at $60 a tube :-(.

 

Myself I would invest in a cheap vernier caliper (they do have a depth gauge built into the slide), do a few measurements and drawings then nip down to the bearing supply house and have a chat with the man there, he deals in seals and stuff all day long so will be able to advise you about seals made from materials designed for keeping the oil in your motor.

[honest Bob]

Thanks Andy;

I have the bike all apart again and some good news, the clutch was not contaminated with oil. The new parts are on their way. Hopefully a different (correct) seal.

[Andrew B]

You should get a Britbike if you like wrenching so much.

[honest Bob]

Final update! The bike is back on the road and not leaking. The new seal was again totally different than the original, but the arrow indicated counterclockwise rotation. I set it into the case so that the lip was at the same depth as the old seal. When I was ordering the parts, I asked the parts person about the arrow and he supposedly E-mailed his parts rep. who told him it didn't matter which way the arrow pointed. He said if it leaked it was because I hadn't used the BMW tool or I had used a seal that was not from BMW. Honest Bob...

[channelplus]

Hi,

I just replaced the 2 seals for second time in a week!... wondering what am i wrong. have the 2004 r1150rt , broken crankshaft that changed also and is working good. but i have many oil leaking from the two rear crankshaft seals. i made very soft form to both. used OEM bmw tools to push. but still oil leaking too much. any body may help me please? tnx

[channelplus]

Hi,

Which kind of seal you replace this time? i have same problem now, and changed two time the both seals by OEM BMW that i bought from the dealer. i shaped both of them some, and assembeled with the OEM tools. but wondering why it has leaking again.

Tnx