Hall Sensor failure

[Softtail]

I keep running into posts regarding failed Hall sensors. Is this a common problem? It also sounds like most shops don't stock Hall sensors or don't have them when you need one. So, either they don't stock them because Hall sensors rarely fail or they run out because they sell so many, which is it? I have 30k miles on my 2002 R1150RT, am I about to be left in the middle of no where in a hail storm? Maybe I should just replace it before it fails, that is if it is going to fail.

[smiller]

So, either they don't stock them because Hall sensors rarely fail or they run out because they sell so many, which is it?

 

Neither. They don't stock parts because they simply don't want to carry the inventory costs.

 

Even so, if you need an HES for an on-the-road emergency a cooperative dealer will probably be able to find one somewhere that they can get overnight for you. Having one available on long trips is a good idea, but it's kind of a pricey 'just in case' part. You have a late-model bike so maybe (as in maybe) the HES wiring is of better quality than earlier bikes. If you had an early oilhead with mid-to-high mileage I would advise to definitely upgrade the wiring or you will have a failure, but on a 2002 1150 with only 30k miles... that's a harder call. I think the odds are well in your favor, but then again having a spare and a little mechanical skill will have you back on the road good as new in a few hours, vs. the potential of a multiple-day trip interruption. But I suppose there's no end to that I guess...

[jackflash]

OK, I'm ignorant and want to learn...what is a hall sensor and what does it do? Thanks.

 

JF

[smiller]

OK, I'm ignorant and want to learn...what is a hall sensor and what does it do?

It is a sensor (actually, two of them on a single assembly) that are mounted on the front of the engine that sense crankshaft position so that the engine management computer knows when to activate spark and fuel injection events. If either hall sensor fails it usually stops the bike dead in its tracks, and it seems that more likely than not the failure will be in the rain as moisture seems to trigger nascent problems in the HES assembly and wiring.

 

Is it an issue worth worrying about? I would say that it depends on the vintage and mileage of the bike. In general I wouldn't be inclined to be up nights over the chance of a failure, but in certain circumstances (as noted above) one might want to beware.

 

I believe that whatever issue there is/was may be gone in the 1200's though because I think the location of the HES was moved from the original position (which is exposed to very high heat) to another and hopefully better location in the hexheads.

[Sputnik]

[if either hall sensor fails it usually stops the bike dead in its tracks, and it seems that more likely than not the failure will be in the rain as moisture seems to trigger nascent problems in the HES assembly and wiring.

 

I've got my bike at my private wrench at the moment, and he thinks I may have a bad Hall Sensor, but is not certain.

 

My bike has not been running well, surging, intermittment power, dying after startup, poor idling. Runs better when I am heavy on the throttle. This started on a trip to Oregon last weekend, I thought it was bad gas, drained the tank, new fuel filter, etc. Didn't solve the problem. There are no fault codes showing. My mechanic also checked compression, and spray from the injectors, all looking fine.

 

Is it possible this is my problem?

 

Any suggestions from you gear heads would be appreciated.

 

Looks like I may have to go to the dealer for a diagnostic.

[smiller]

Those issues don't sound very consistent with a typical HES failure. That is a confusing set of symptoms, perhaps maybe a bad throttle position sensor.

[Sputnik]

I'll mention this thought to my mechanic, but he is baffeled. Said he's never really seen these type of symptoms and he's been a BMW wrench for 20 years. The Hall Sensor was a shot in the dark and he mentioned that this was not the typical symptoms of a Hall Sensor failure. But he does not own the computer diagnostic machine to be certain.

[Dances_With_Wiener_Dogs]

But he does not own the computer diagnostic machine to be certain.

Let's be precise shall we? Mark was being too polite...BMWNA won't sell the diagnostic equipment to this fellow because he's not a dealer. It's not that he doesn't want to buy it...

 

Steve Reinig mentioned at one point that the gaskets/O-rings that attach to the throttle bodies can fail over time and the resulting air leak can cause problems.

[Ken H.]

I keep running into posts regarding failed Hall sensors. Is this a common problem?

No really. You keep running into post regarding them failing because nobody post on the Internet about all the parts on the bikes that don't fail. They're just one of those things though that when they go it's usually without warning and usually leave you walking. Plus being a computer related "thingy", not everyone knows how to deal with them so the generate a lot of discussion.

[Sputnik]

Well it's not the Throttle position sensor, and he has also ruled out the O ring on the throttle body as Weiner Steve suggested.

 

Now in the process of a leak down test. Will keep you posted as we go.

[Thumper]

Just returned from Hickory, NC BMW dealer. Same symptoms, but no answer. Another rider had been in yesterday with the same story, and had mentioned to the mechanic that he had seen a post that BMW was aware of a problem with the R 1150 RT and was working on a new ECU (?) to replace the bad one. All very nebulous, but my mechanic is going to call BMW on Tuesday.

[KDeline]

Sadly I had a warning, close to home a chose to ignore it. Then I was standed 1200 miles from home at a incompetent dealor, but that is another story. Rain is/was the warning.

[Sputnik]

My mechanic thinks he has narrowed it down to the ECU or Hall Sensor. Now I just have to wait 12 days to get into the dealer to be sure.

[MikeP1300]

Man am I glad to see a post about the Hall Sensor. I was about to post a dumb question.

 

The wife's 96 RT came with little in the way of records so I'm wondering if it's ever been replaced. Let's see if I can find it(them). What needs to come off?

 

Did I see a post about a honeywell sub, or was that for somehting else?

[Steve W.]

Just reading about the HES failures and I haven't heard of the 1150's having this problem. I noticed the part # is different for the 1150's vs the 1100's. Does anyone know if the part was upgraded to prevent the failure? Will the newer parts fit the older bikes?

Thanks

Steve (01 GS)

[smiller]

Does anyone know if the part was upgraded to prevent the failure?

 

Legend has it, but I've never seen a definitive statement from anyone who has actually compared new vs. old, or even clearly define 'new' vs. 'old'. I believe that the part is the same for both the 1100 and 1150 (but not the 1200). I wouldn't go by a part number change as meaning much as there are many BMW parts with such changes that appear to be identical to one another.

[steveknapp]

There was a running change to the wiring harness. something that could take more heat without failure.

 

From what I understand, nothing to fix the sensors themselves.

 

Mark, if it's your ECU, PM me before buying a new one. Long story...but it will save you $$$ I think

[FNST YR]

I just bought a '96 1100RT with 31K miles and ride year-round including in the rain. I don't know about the history of the bike. Is this something that fails frequently enough that I should have it replaced before winter?

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

Is this something that fails frequently enough that I should have it replaced before winter?

 

No.

 

Some of 'em die young, Most last a mighty long time, and some just refuse to die before the rest of the bike does. Classic "bathtub" failure curve common with electronic components. Mine went 100K miles, and then was removed and used to get another member's bike back on the road after his sensor died at about 65K miles. AFAIK it's still running in his bike, and he's about to head out for a week on the road (albeit with his old one, repaired and stowed under the seat, as a spare...).

 

It's really not something you replace as preventative maintenance, especially since a new one will run ya about $278.

[smiller]

Some of 'em die young, Most last a mighty long time, and some just refuse to die before the rest of the bike does. Classic "bathtub" failure curve common with electronic components.

 

True with respect to the sensors themselves, but HES assemblies of some unknown vintage used inadequately-rated wire in the harness, and if you ever have one of these come apart in your hand you will be left with the definite impression that with those units, at least, a failure of the wiring harness is clearly a matter of when over if. Trouble is that there seems to be no definition of when this problem was fixed (if it ever was.) For older units I would definitely recommend the 'PM' of at least replacing the wire harness with something having adequate insulation.

 

[steveknapp]

For older units I would definitely recommend the 'PM' of at least replacing the wire harness with something having adequate insulation.

 

FWIW, my bud Dave West redid Shawn's (or is it Mitch's) harness with some teflon wire that's supposed to be good to 200C. It might be worth asking him if he would do yours too.

 

Oh, and the spare isn't under Shawn's seat. It's under mine, in my truck.

[Steve_Witmer]

Did I see a post about a honeywell sub, or was that for somehting else?

 

The sensor life appears to be related either to heat exposure or to heat/cold cycles. I'm not acutely worried about mine, but with 75K on the bike I'm starting to look at options to make a failure less of a disaster if I'm away from home.

 

Honeywell makes a hall effect vane sensor Part No. 2av54, that can be used to replace the ones on the bike, but it's not really a roadside job, as the new sensors need to be riveted in place on the assembly. If you have the spares and a place to work, the tools required are modest.

 

The sensors are about $12 each from Newarkinone.com and two are needed to completely renew the assembly (even though usually only one of the two sensors has actually failed).

 

The assembly itself is expensive from BMW, but if you can get one that has failed, it should be rebuildable for about $25 plus your time

 

Instructions on rebuilding the assembly may be found here:

 

Rebuild of HES Assembly

[Sputnik]

Mark, if it's your ECU, PM me before buying a new one. Long story...but it will save you $$$ I think

 

Steve, Sorry I won't be needing your spare ECU. Bike is running better than ever. Sometimes it's the simplist things that you don't think off.

 

I was talking to Big Mak the other night explaning my bike woes, and he mentioned a trick he saw Tommy Rowe do at the first Tech Days. Pull the fuses. I told this to my mechanic and he said he'd give anything a try. he disconnected the negative battery terminal, let the bike sit for a few minutes, and hooked it back up. Everything fixed, bike running better than ever.

 

So here is my theory. I believe I got some bad gas in Oregon, as there was water in my tank. The ECU compensated for the bad fuel, and as the bike was serviced, the problem was actually made worse. Then the ECU reset itself after it lost power.

 

My wrench spent over 7 hours troubleshooting this problem (also note he didn't charge me but 1 hour), and the fix took 30 seconds.

 

I think I will start disconnecting the battery every few months just for the hell of it.

[bmwmick]

Here is another excellent HES repair document:

http://users.rcn.com/dehager/service/oilhead_hall_sensors.pdf

 

Mick

[bmwmick]

The connector is a different style on the 1150's. I'm not sure if they changed the wire quality.

 

Mick

[steveknapp]

So which is it? I've got a PM that I should ship the ECU. And a post that things are all better?

 

My .02 is that I'd be giving the HES a good test. You can do this without the dealers computer by the way.

[Sputnik]

Steve -

 

Ship the ECU. Yesterday the bike rode like it was new after disconnecting the battery. Today I rode to work, and it has gone from a little surge to I almost didn't get home from class tonight. Everytime I gave it some throttle, the bike wanted to die, a quick downshift and easy throttle, and she continued on. More throttle and she'd sputter and lose power. From what I've read so far, these don't sound like HES symptoms. I'm open to any suggestions at this point.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

Ship the ECU. Yesterday the bike rode like it was new after disconnecting the battery. Today I rode to work, and it has gone from a little surge to I almost didn't get home from class tonight. Everytime I gave it some throttle, the bike wanted to die, a quick downshift and easy throttle, and she continued on. More throttle and she'd sputter and lose power. From what I've read so far, these don't sound like HES symptoms. I'm open to any suggestions at this point.

 

click here, go to page 71 and follow instructions for reading fault codes from the Motronic. Don't worry about hall sensor error codes, it's normal to get one while the engine isn't running. But if you see a problem with the TPS (1215), O2 sensor or either of the temp sensors, then you can avoid replacing the Motronic...

[Sputnik]

Mitch -

 

We have already checked for fault codes. We are showing 444 - no faults stored. Tonight I'm going to pull the power again and see if the ECU resets itself agin. I really think this is where my problem lies.

[smiller]

Everytime I gave it some throttle, the bike wanted to die, a quick downshift and easy throttle, and she continued on.

 

That really sounds like a fuel supply problem (due to a clogged filter, failing fuel pump, etc.). Have these possibilities been eliminated?

[steveknapp]

I also had a bike that behaved that way, the root cause was a bad ignition system. The weak spark did OK at light loads, when the firing voltage was low. But put the motor under load, the firing voltage would rise, and the system would break down.

[smiller]

I also had a bike that behaved that way, the root cause was a bad ignition system. The weak spark did OK at light loads, when the firing voltage was low. But put the motor under load, the firing voltage would rise, and the system would break down.

Good point. So now we have it narrowed down to either spark or fuel, or possibly something else...

[Sputnik]

That really sounds like a fuel supply problem (due to a clogged filter, failing fuel pump, etc.). Have these possibilities been eliminated?

 

Yep. New fuel filter, pump is delievering just fine. Spray from the injectors is good. Ignition wires and coil replaced.

 

I think we have tried or tested every possibility except the ECU and the HES.

[eustts]

Does any one have a picture of the connector pieces? I would like to have a picture of the writing on each half of the connector.

 

Or if someone could jot down the numbers/ text on each

connector that would be great. Or better yet, if you have replaced the hall asembly, could I have your broken one with the metal plate?

 

 

 

 

[steveknapp]

Have you tested the HES?

[Sputnik]

Have you tested the HES?

 

No I havent tested it yet, but everything is pointing to the Motronic. Here is what we have done:

Replaced fuel filter, drained tank, checked injector spray, checked ignition timing, replaced ignition coil and wires, replaced spark plugs, the Motronic codes are 4444, compression is Right175 Left 165, leak down is 3% Rt&Lt.

 

Last night I barely got home from class, today I started it up, idled around 500rpm, gave it some gas and the idle was around 1100 rpm. Rode it around for a few minutes. It was a little rough, but not nearly as bad as it was last night, Came home. Pulled the #5 fuse (Motronic, waited a fem minutes, then replaced and the bike ran great. Rode around for a while and it got a little worse. Stopped at the dealer to chat with the Service Manager. He stated that he has never seen a Hall Sensor go bad without killing the bike until it cooled down, then it would start again. My bike has never died, always starts, just runs very rough. Sometimes like a bucking bronco. The dealer thinks it is the ECU also, although he has never seen one go bad.

 

A few weeks ago, I had turned off my bike and hadn't noticed that I had left the switch in the ACC position. Motolights were on for about 3 hours while I was at work. Drained the battery down to where the bike would not start. Jumped the bike from a car (car was not running while jumping), I was wondering if this may have caused some damage to the ECU? Don't know why it would, but at this point I'm open to anything.

 

If it was the Hall Sensor, I don't think pulling the Motronic fuse would make any difference. Perhaps I'm wrong though, I am not very mechanicly gifted.

[steveknapp]

I've got the ECU boxed up, it will go out in Friday's mail

 

How's the battery voltage? Bike off, just sitting there?

 

What about the O2 sensor?

 

The ECU is somewhat like the hall-effect sensor, it fails and the bike just quits working. The reboot shouldn't help it either.

 

The low battery voltage has me wondering.

[Sputnik]

How's the battery voltage? Bike off, just sitting there?

 

What about the O2 sensor?...

 

The low battery voltage has me wondering.

 

My cheap multi-meter isn't very precise, but it is showing about 11 volts. I'll borrow a more precise unit tomorrow.

 

If the O2 Sensor was bad, wouldn't there have been a stored fault code?

 

My battery is a year and a half old, should still be good. Would poor voltage cause something else to fault?

[matt]

For what it's worth, I had similiar problems. Pinched and/ or blocked fuel vent lines appeared to be the culprit. An easy cheap check.

[steveknapp]

If the O2 Sensor was bad, wouldn't there have been a stored fault code?

 

The fault codes in a system as old as the RT's really aren't that useful IMHO. They tell you when something is really broken. Like not connected, or shorted. They *don't* tell you if something has failed. O2 sensors, for example, get slow/lazy in their response.

 

My battery is a year and a half old, should still be good. Would poor voltage cause something else to fault?

 

Batteries really hate being deeply discharged. 110W of lights on for three hours? It was dead as a doornail.

 

Low voltage could cause problems, yes.

 

Check the battery when sitting, should be a bit more than 12V. Also check when the bike is running.

 

FWIW, even a cheap RadioShack pocket digital DVM is good enough for this stuff.

 

$25? I swear I got mine for less...but none the less:

http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&product%5Fid=22-820

Hmm...here ya go:

http://www.powerwerx.com/product.asp?ProdID=1804

 

[Sputnik]

Steve -

 

Perhaps you're on to something with the voltage. I'll check it again and keep you posted.

 

After I drained the battery so low, I did a 1200 mile ride thru Oregon where my troubles began about half way through the trip. I would have thought that a 600 mile ride would have fully charged up the battery, but if a cell was toast, maybe not.

[Sputnik]

Steve -

 

Doesn't look like the voltage is the crux of the biscuit.

 

With bike off voltage is 13.1 volts, with bike running it is 12.5v.

 

Something told me I wouldn't get off that easy.

[Sputnik]

Matt -

 

Thanks for the suggestion but that's not the problem either. My mechanic put a different tank on that was off of a State Patrol bike he had in the shop, and the vent lines were not hooked up at all.

 

No difference.

[DavidEBSmith]

With bike off voltage is 13.1 volts, with bike running it is 12.5v.

 

You mean the other way around, right? Off should be about 12.6-12.9 volts (battery voltage only), running (with the alternator going) should be in the 13's.

[Sputnik]

You mean the other way around, right? Off should be about 12.6-12.9 volts (battery voltage only), running (with the alternator going) should be in the 13's.

 

EB - I posted correctly. Are we on to something here?

[steveknapp]

What happens when you rev the bike a bit? Voltage rises?

[Sputnik]

Yep. Must have had some residual voltage in the system when I first tested it.

 

When I checked it again it was 12.5v with bike off, and was 13.4v when I reved it to 3000 rpm.

[Sputnik]

Here is an update on on my situation.

 

Saturday I took the bike out for a spin. It ran well, so I thought I'd head toward the mountains for a quick jaunt. Stopped in Index for a little break and thought I'd pull the #5 Motronic fuse to see if the bike would run a little better.

 

BIG MISTAKE!

 

My bike ran awful the rest of the way home, and it even died in the town of Bothell. Coasted to the side of the road. Hit the starter and it started right up, although still rough as ever.

 

The next morning I started it up and the bike sounded terrible. Pulled the fuse again, hit the starter and she started to purr.

 

Hoping Steve's ECU is the ticket. Should arrive shortly. I've got an appointment at the dealer's for Thursday morning.