Break in - for the third time

[scottd]

Bike is an 04 RT, the first time new, second when they replaced both pistons and cylinders, third time when the motor was replaced. When I bought the bike (4300 miles ago) the salesman said it was "special." When I asked what was special about it he said it was black. I now know that "special" meant the motor was assembled by a blind guy.

[BFish]

my 04 has been ok so far for 10k miles. maybe it was black as in "sheep".keep the faith brother.

[scottie_boy]

22,000 miles and not a single problem from my '04 RT maybe yours was made during Octoberfest. Seriously, engine problems on these bikes are pretty rare.

[JohnBryer]

Our '04 blew a rod with 2000 miles on it. I think the bllind guy built ours too!

 

Kudos to BMW for taking care of it and picking up the tab for the extra 600 mile service too.

[jrbldr]

Our '04 blew a rod with 2000 miles on it. I think the bllind guy built ours too!

 

Kudos to BMW for taking care of it and picking up the tab for the extra 600 mile service too.

 

Uh...kudos? For fixing a motor that puked at 2000 miles? Let's not get carried away here. That and a free 600 would be the MINIMUM most people would have expected for such an early and total failure of the mechanicals. How about "they did their job"?. I find it apalling that there are the number of failures there are with these bikes. Spend some time on the ST1100/1300 forum. No one EVER talks about engine, or tranny, or shaft drive, or brake failures.

[ShovelStrokeEd]

No one's stopping you, go get an ST.

 

Where does it say anywhere that mechanical devices are fool proof. Coupla engine failures. Terrible!! There are a couple hundred thousand RT's out there in the world. I might even venture that there are more RT's than ST's. A place like this, with 8K members, any of whom will be happy to tell you everything that's ever gone wrong with their bikes over the last 20 or so thousand miles, tends to focus problems all out of proportion to their statistical reality.

 

I have, in the last 10 years alone, put over 250K miles on BMW's, never a motor problem. Many here have gone over 100K on their oilheads with no engine problems. Care to produce some stats on the ST's? Not just your impressions from another web site?

[jrbldr]

No one's stopping you, go get an ST.

 

Where does it say anywhere that mechanical devices are fool proof. Coupla engine failures. Terrible!! There are a couple hundred thousand RT's out there in the world. I might even venture that there are more RT's than ST's. A place like this, with 8K members, any of whom will be happy to tell you everything that's ever gone wrong with their bikes over the last 20 or so thousand miles, tends to focus problems all out of proportion to their statistical reality.

 

I have, in the last 10 years alone, put over 250K miles on BMW's, never a motor problem. Many here have gone over 100K on their oilheads with no engine problems. Care to produce some stats on the ST's? Not just your impressions from another web site?

 

My, kinda touchy, aren't we? Nothing personal meant here. But since you brought it up, I don't need an ST at the moment - I am fully involved in the BMW experience...now that I have got my surging about eliminated, it's good, but I have owned two ST1100's over the past 10 years, along with several other sport touring bikes. The ST's never required anything. Nothing but tires and oil change. They certainly don't require valve adjustments and TBS every 6k. Calls for 16k but most set 'em once and forget it.

 

Yeah, they are kinda boring - they just start, run, take you places in a kind of unassuming way. Nothing like the thrill ride I get each time I fire up my flat twin! And just like the RT, the ST also runs WELL over 100k, and are in use all over the world, especially in Europe and Asia as ambulance, police, etc. Oh yeah - big favorite of Iron Butt Riders, too - I wonder why? Or, maybe talk to Bama Rider about ST reliability sometime.

 

I'll be the first to say I love my RT for the handling, riding position, and quality. It's a unique experience, and delightful on the open road. Very, very nice in the twisties. But these other issues with engine surging, rear end failures, ABS module failures, tranny failures. Unheard of on an ST. Oh yeah, forgot the Hall Sensor.

 

My point above, in passing was simply a commentary on someone who was apparently thrilled that BMW actually FIXED the motor that puked at 2k. Wow - how impressive! And sure, online forums bring out the worst, but my point was simply that over on the ST forums, especially the older ST1100 (my RT's contemporary), there isn't nearly as much discussion of major bike problems and failures - more it revolves around regular maintenance, trips, or "farkles" - the goodies they add to the bikes to personalize them. The difference is apparent that's all.

[ShovelStrokeEd]

But these other issues with engine surging, rear end failures, ABS module failures, tranny failures. Unheard of on an ST. Oh yeah, forgot the Hall Sensor.

 

And you have experienced how many of these?

 

I'm not knocking the ST, nor am I apologizing for BMW, I think the word "appalled" hardly applies. The problem(s) is no where near as large as you seem to think. The biggest issue seems to be with clutch splines as that is the most expensive repair and BMW has proved reluctant to address it. The rear drive failures are really bearing failures and BMW has been quite good about that. At least in my experience. HES sensor wiring is a boo boo. There is even a recall out to reroute the wiring on certain models. Don't blame BMW for the surging. I have never owned one that surged but, then again, I don't ride them in the RPM range that surging is a problem.

 

One of the things that galls me is people expecting that, just because they bought a BMW and payed a premium over most other bikes out there, they are going to get some paragon of motorcycling perfection. It just ain't so, bunky. They are machines, and just like any other machine, are prone to failures.

 

As to the maintenance, BMW suggests inspection of the valve clearances and throttle bodies at 6K mile intervals. If you ever learn some mechanical stuff and decide to do some maintenance yourself you'll find that actual adjustment is seldom needed. I recently decided, with the change to Mobil One Extended Life synthetic oil, to move all my maintenance intervals on my 60+ thousand mile '04 GS and my 40 thousand mile '02 R1100S out to 10K miles as neither of them have required a valve adjustment or throttle body synch in the last 20K. It is also somewhat unfair to compare an overhead cam motor with shim under bucket valve adjustment to a pushrod and rocker motor such as the boxer twin. If you are going to compare, do so with the K12RS with its much more similar motor.

[KDeline]

I agree. There can be a bad bike or two out there, everybody has a bad day at work, why shouldn't the builders of our bikes. It sucks when you are the one to get it, but they are taking care of it. Remember we don't hear about the ones that have bikes that give them no problems. I have over 500,000 miles over 22 years on BMW's and have only had one time been stranded. I can't complain.

[cgdR]

The problem(s) is no where near as large as you seem to think.

Luck you. For me, the problems were much worse than I thought. My '02 has 43k mi and in the last year it has needed:

-transmission seal & clutch (gear oil contamination)

-Left cam chain tensioner (for rattling <2000 RPM)

-FD crown bearing (pitted balls, race)

-BMW battery (lasted 15 months)

 

My ridding buddy (Honda ST1100) is a bit amused.

[ShovelStrokeEd]

I'm assuming you forgot the y and were not mis-spelling the expletive.

 

I'm sorry for you. You certainly had a ration of poor luck. Fact remains, the survey done here shows incidence of failures to be remarkably low in re drive train. Of course things are going to go wrong. That's the point. To expect otherwise is unrealistic. You want something like the old Rolls Royce service thing where they sent a technician anywhere in the world to repair your car. Be prepared. Their cars at that time were upwards of $20,000.00 when you could buy an new Ford for $300.

 

Was I annoyed when my '04 GS had a rear drive bearing failure in Illinois last year. Sure I was. BMW fixed it under warranty even though the bike was out in terms of milage at 39K. No cost to me, and I was happy again.

 

I was annoyed when the transmission input shaft bearing failed taking out the clutch and most of the transmission internals. Again, BMW stepped up and I got a new transmission for free. I am out pocket about 2K on this one for labor and associated parts. I still feel pretty good. That was at 61K miles BTW. The bike was just over 2 years old.

 

40K on my R1100S in that same time frame have shown no problems. My '94 R1100S, 40K and the only problem has been the front brake master cylinder leaking 2X. 25K on a '00 R1100RT, sold with no problems. 22K on a '99 KRS, sold with no problems, 32K on a K12LT, sold with no problems. Anecdotal information has no meaning, only statistics matter.

 

As to the ST's, well, the wobble in wake turbulence could be considered a problem, Valve inspection intervals are longer but, adjustment costs about 4X as much. Again, apples to oranges unless you compare to the KRS as the valve trains are different. They do seem to do better in the final drive and transmission/clutch area's. I seem to remember a brake recall. They are machines, they are going to break and with just about the same frequency as BMW's. Honda does a really good job on quality control. Arguably better than BMW. That would tend to make the initial miles a bit more trouble free. Over time, entropy will take its toll.

 

Again, if the ST is such a perfect bike, why ain't you ridin' one?

[SageRider]

They are machines, they are going to break and with just about the same frequency as BMW's

Ed,

What are you basing this statement on?

The only way I can see this being true is with the identical design manufactured in the identical manner with the identical materials.

If any of the above differ, then the breakage/failure rate may vary.

(and of the failures listed higher in this thread, my bike has experienced 3 of the 5 with less than 60K miles on the bike. Been stranded twice. The only times I have ever been stranded. By far the most expensive, least reliable bike I have ever owned!)

Unfortunately, when it's running right it's a great bike. Makes it hard to get rid of it when it's not running right.

[jrbldr]

As to the maintenance, BMW suggests inspection of the valve clearances and throttle bodies at 6K mile intervals. If you ever learn some mechanical stuff and decide to do some maintenance yourself you'll find that actual adjustment is seldom needed. I recently decided, with the change to Mobil One Extended Life synthetic oil, to move all my maintenance intervals on my 60+ thousand mile '04 GS and my 40 thousand mile '02 R1100S out to 10K miles as neither of them have required a valve adjustment or throttle body synch in the last 20K. It is also somewhat unfair to compare an overhead cam motor with shim under bucket valve adjustment to a pushrod and rocker motor such as the boxer twin. If you are going to compare, do so with the K12RS with its much more similar motor.

 

You make a lot of assumptions. I DO my own wrenching and yes , valve inspection is a snap, adjusting is a bit more effort. On my last run through eight western states the valves started out fine and were getting loose by the time I got back - 4000 miles. I was runnning hard, though. But you're right - it is a maintenance-intensive design, and they went with it to please the airhead traditionalist. And hey, I like it too.

 

I have also owned two K-bikes and in my estimation they are an outstanding mechanical design and as reliable as anything out there in my experience. Like a car. Far more reliable than an oilhead. Both were RS's though, and were not as comfortable as the ST or the RT, which have long distance comfort that is unparalleled.

 

Your loyalty is admirable but have you lived with anything else besides BMW for any length of time recently? You might be suprised at the level of refinement and reliability that IS available now, from the competition.

[ShovelStrokeEd]

Ed,

What are you basing this statement on?

 

45 years of working on various and assorted machines to include motorcycles. I never said the same parts would break on the two bikes, I just said they would break.

 

If the RT is the least reliable and most expensive to maintain motorcycle you have ever owned you should sell it and quit wasting bandwidth bitching about it. This is a no brainer. FJR, ST, HD, Kawasaki, all offer motorcycles capable of touring. Go get one.

 

Just cause yours broke, doesn't mean it will happen to everyone which is the point I have been trying to make all along. Screw this, I'm going for a ride. Sure hope my bike doesn't leave me stranded.

[ShovelStrokeEd]

Your loyalty is admirable but have you lived with anything else besides BMW for any length of time recently

 

Kaw, ZX-11, Honda Valkyerie Tour, Ducati 900 SS, Honda VFR, aggregate about another 100K miles. ZX-11 broke a crank, Valk was flawless but hardly a touring bike much less a sport tourer, priced a VFR valve adjustment lately, we won't even talk about the clutch in the Duck.

 

Adjusting is a bit more effort than what? Pulling the cams, measuring shims, calculating new shim sizes, replacing the cams and then finding out you might still be out of spec and have to repeat. Give me a break. That, btw, is the price you pay for your vaunted 12K mile inspection interval.

 

I have no loyalty to BMW. I prefer their bikes over the competition for the type of riding I do. There is very little out there that will stand up to my riding. You mentioned a 4K mile trip. I do that every month. I have been riding since the early 60's. BMW's have long been my bike of preference because they hold up pretty well over long distances. If somebody else came out with a bike that would do all my GS Adventure does, I'd be on it in a heartbeat. Oh yeah, I'd want some history as well.

[scottd]

A funny aside on this story, and you can take "funny" either way on this one. When they decided to put in a new motor they order one up and an 02 spec motor shows up. Try again and order another one. This time the new motor gets installed in the bike and they're trying to hook up the exhaust when they realize this motor is for a Rockster and the exhaust is different. Third time they get the right motor. All this takes a little over a month but it was over 100 degrees most of the time so I wasn't missing the bike too much. I've got 100 miles on the new motor (its only been 2 days) and its running great. But I have my fingers crossed.

[SageRider]

Ed,

What are you basing this statement on?

 

...I never said the same parts would break on the two bikes, I just said they would break.

"and with just about the same frequency as BMW's"

The remainder of the quote is what I was questioning. In my experience riding and working on motorcycles dating back to the mid 1970's, bikes do not fail with the same frequency. Some make/models fail with more frequency than others.

All my previous motorcycles (somewhat limited at 9) that I have owned have had as many or more miles than on my RT. The problems that they have had have never been major as in drivetrain/engine/transmission failure, and have never left me stranded.

 

 

If the RT is the least reliable and most expensive to maintain motorcycle you have ever owned you should sell it and quit wasting bandwidth bitching about it.......

Just cause yours broke, doesn't mean it will happen to everyone which is the point I have been trying to make all along.

 

And the point I believe I have made is that these bikes DO fail, and as is evident on this board, quite frequently. Stating that there is a percentage of bikes which do fail is no more a waste of bandwidth than unsubstantiated statements that all bikes fail with the same frequency.

 

Enjoy your ride. Hope you make it back!

[ShovelStrokeEd]

Oh for Christs sakes, believe what you wish. The thought that my bike will break down never crosses my mind. Nor should it yours. I have better things to do than sit here arguing semantics with someone with a little old lady mentality. If your afraid your bad ol' BMW is gonna leave you stranded, by all means, go buy something else. I flat don't care. If it breaks, I'll fix it or have it fixed. If it can't be fixed, I'll buy another.

[Stan Walker]

My family owns 2 BMW RT's and one Honda ST1100.

 

To date the ST1100 has far fewer miles than either RT and has been down for repairs more than both RT's combined.

 

What's it prove? Nothing. It's far too small a sample with far too many variables to mean anything. Riding style, mileage, attitude about scheduled maintenance, dumb luck, etc., all affect the outcome.

 

The truth be know all three bikes have been very reliable. The two RT's total over 130,000 miles without a major repair on either bike. That's good enough for me.

 

I also agree with ED about comparing an air/oil cooled 2 cylinder engine with pushrods against an overhead cam 4 cylinder water cooled design isn't comparing apples to apples. Try comparing the ST1100 vs. the K1100's for a more equal comparison.

 

Stan

[Couchrocket]

A place like this, with 8K members, any of whom will be happy to tell you everything that's ever gone wrong with their bikes over the last 20 or so thousand miles, tends to focus problems all out of proportion to their statistical reality.

Ed, I agree with you 100%, but must admit that having my very first BMW toast an exhaust valve for no particular reason, and now develop a strange brake problem that is taking some sorting out.... all while all the other brands I've owned over the years never experience anything like this.... well it isn't confidence inspiring.

 

I fully realize that this time I'm just in that unlucky and very low probability group of owners... but it has made me a little more empathetic to those who have had similar experiences. I think one thing that exacerbates the experience's impact is BMW's legendary reputation for reliability and high quality. And, as someone who finally bought the marque I've always lusted after, and the model of that marque that was the primary reason for that lust.... the failures have undoubtedly had more impact on my psyche than is actually warranted, and that otherwise might have been the case. So, in a completly unmerited way, BMW's own reputation sets a higher expectation in those of us new to the marque, making the disappointment when it turns out to be just like all other things mechanical, more poignant and painful.

 

Even having said this, my rebuilt engine seems fine, and I'm sure the brake problem will get sorted out, and I'm having a ball riding this "character filled" and wonderful bike. But, I have to admit that I don't have the confidence in this bike "for the long haul" that I expected and now make contingency planning more of a routine part of my trip planning than I used to do.

 

Hopefully this miasma will dissipate as I clock some serious and trouble free miles on the bike from this point forward, but that remains to be seen.

 

Still, I can't think of any other bike that I'd rather own.. and that actually makes it worse!

[KDeline]

Now waiting a month would really aggravate me.

[ShovelStrokeEd]

This really sounds like a dealer problem.

 

The following, complete engine part numbers, took about 5 minutes to find.

 

R1150 RT 1 spark

01 11 00 7 551 708

 

R1150Rt 2 spark

01 11 00 7 670 293

 

R1150 Rockster 2 spark

01 11 00 7 682 344

 

Not to sure I'd be going back there very much.

[smiller]

Our '04 blew a rod with 2000 miles on it. I think the bllind guy built ours too!

 

Kudos to BMW for taking care of it and picking up the tab for the extra 600 mile service too.

If I purchased a new bike that had a serious internal engine failure at 2k miles I would consider the only acceptable remedy to be replacement with a completely new motorcycle.

[KDeline]

Our '04 blew a rod with 2000 miles on it. I think the bllind guy built ours too!

 

Kudos to BMW for taking care of it and picking up the tab for the extra 600 mile service too.

If I purchased a new bike that had a serious internal engine failure at 2k miles I would consider the only acceptable remedy to be replacement with a completely new motorcycle.

 

Why would you expect a new cycle when replacing an engine would fix it?

[smiller]

Why would you expect a new cycle when replacing an engine would fix it?

 

Because of the low miles. If one pays for a brand new bike then that's what you should receive, not a bike completely disassembled (which is essentially what is required on an 1100/1150 in order to replace the engine) and put back together (maybe right, maybe wrong) in the field. Under those circumstances repairing/replacing the engine will not restore the bike to new condition and reliability. If the bike were older I would be perfectly inclined to find some sort of a reasonable compromise, but at 2k miles? Paid for a new bike, should get a new bike.

[sgendler]

Because of the low miles. If one pays for a brand new bike then that's what you should receive, not a bike completely disassembled (which is essentially what is required on an 1100/1150 in order to replace the engine) and put back together (maybe right, maybe wrong) in the field. Under those circumstances repairing/replacing the engine will not restore the bike to new condition and reliability. If the bike were older I would be perfectly inclined to find some sort of a reasonable compromise, but at 2k miles? Paid for a new bike, should get a new bike.

 

I'm curious if anyone else here thinks this is a reasonable attitude. I had an idiot (in an SUV) back into my brand spanking new GSXR1000 last week and do a fair amount of damage to the bike. Given that the 600 mile service had only been completed some 12 hours earlier, I'm inclined to attempt to get his insurance company to reimburse me for the entire bike. Given that the bike is brand spanking new, having repairs and an insurance claim record will have a massive impact on the value of the bike, which is made even worse by the fact that I need to sell it, as we are moving overseas. I had a flawless bike with 600 miles, but now I will have a repaired bike with 600 miles. That's going to cost me at least $1.5K when I sell it, which, when tacked onto the $5K+ in repairs should make it a total rather than a repair. Anyone know if it is possible to be reimbursed for the loss of value as well as the actual repairs?

 

--sam

[ShovelStrokeEd]

Sam,

I think your going to need small claims court for that one. I'm not an attorney nor did I stay in a Holiday Inn last night, I prefer Hampton Inn, but, as far as the insurance company is concerned your repaired bike is "good as new".

[Global_Rider]

I've had BMWs since 1991.

 

I read about all these failures, but I haven't experienced any. To be fair, I also don't have all the miles that most riders have on their machines.

 

But I also think a good part of these failures are due to owner maintenance:

 

I've seen a pic on the ADV Rider site of a GS with the rear drive fully submerged while crossing a river. Oh, that's got to be good for it.

 

Pulling a trailer? Was the rear drive designed for the added load while riding two-up with lots of gear.

 

I wonder if owners really have the knack to do their own maintenance.

 

Then there are those using products that aren't even recommended in the owner's manual. I guess they know more than BMW.

 

My batteries last 8 full years, quitting in the 9th. Why do some other owner's batteries only last 2 to 4 years?

[smiller]

Anyone know if it is possible to be reimbursed for the loss of value as well as the actual repairs?

 

I'm not an insurance guy but I would guess probably not, you'd likely have to get them to just total out the bike. But that said everything is negotiable and if the bike is (or was) brand new and the damage substantial then you may have a case. As Ed said it may take an attorney and that cost has to figure in to your decision, but sometimes the mere involvement of an attorney can cause the insurance company to be more receptive to other options than they would be otherwise in which case just a letter or two from him/her may be enough to help.

 

In general, these 'replace or repair' cases are a judgment call and it's important to have a fair and reasonable case on your side. But if your case is supportable and you are firm (as in totally unyielding, else they will have their way with you) then you may prevail. I have in two similar cases in the past and I think the key was being both firm and fair under the circumstances. If you have a good case (in a truly fair and objective sense) and you press it you sometimes actually run into reasonable people on the other end who will help you.

[Frank Cloud]

My guess is that the owner's are more than capable of performing the required maintenance. My question would be whether we, as owners truly check the bearings as needed is probably, inmo where some of the rear-end failures come in.

 

When my bike had bearing slop at 20k, I had no clue. Had the dealer (BMW of Atlanta) not caught that I would have probably had a premature failure of some sort.