Huh... so this is the future I suppose

[bakerzdosen]

I dunno. I'm having a tough time getting my mind wrapped around this article. Maybe if it wasn't a high school, but an office or the like...

 

I'll probably be shaking my head about this for a while I suppose. Maybe 10% to 20% of the students really DO know at age 13 that they want to change genders... but it's pretty tough for me to believe that ANY 13 year old can know ANYthing for sure about the remainder of his or her life.

 

Chiang Mai is a world away from me (though I sort of had ties to the area at one point), I can see something like this creeping into US society in the name of "freedom of speech" or the like. Then you gotta have 3 bathrooms instead of two in any public place.

 

Or maybe I'm just alone in being baffled by this.

[Limecreek]

Or maybe I'm just alone in being baffled by this.

 

Well, you are certainly not alone and I really hope we will not see the same here in the US--the accommodation piece.

[Twisties]

I don't know, there seems to be a growing body of evidence that gender is set very, very early. Parents of homosexuals may be aware that something is going on by age 2 it seems, and there may be very strong statements of gender identity by children age 6.

 

I'm not any kind of expert, just going off what I see in the news. Maybe Phillyflash will comment on this.

[chrisolson]

... Then you gotta have 3 bathrooms instead of two in any public place. ...

Why not 4 if your really switching sides ... is it real or ... ?

[Twisties]

... Then you gotta have 3 bathrooms instead of two in any public place. ...

Why not 4 if your really switching sides ... is it real or ... ?

 

A friend who took a university course on gender told me there are something like 7 major genders, and many more less common ones, IIRC.

 

One bathroom sounds like the way to go to me.

 

Jan

[Joel]

I don't understand gender identity conflicts, so I'll be joining you in being baffled, particularly at the order of magnitude -- 20%?

 

Why couldn't a gender-conflicted person discreetly select and use either gender's restroom without making a big deal out of it?

[Wheels Rollin']

I don't know, there seems to be a growing body of evidence that gender is set very, very early.

I've seen this somewhere in my reading as well, though for the life of me, I can't remember where <>... Living in the 'intricately wired global village' as we do, awareness of all kinds of things is more easily accomplished now than at any other time in history... I know there's some legitimacy to transgenderism, though at the younger ages referenced here, I wonder... well... if there's a little 'shock value' | 'lemme-see-what-I-can-get-away-with' at play... Many go through phases in life seeking an identity, the expectation of some they're nothing more than temporary wanderings off the path of the tried and true and that they'll be something one eventually 'grows out of'... Ya' know, I think it's possible some people never do... I'm certainly no expert either, though I will admit to being truly fasinated by all kinds of things affecting the human condition... An' this? I think it most certainly qualifies...

 

~ Bill

[Twisties]

I don't understand gender identity conflicts, so I'll be joining you in being baffled, particularly at the order of magnitude -- 20%?

 

Why couldn't a gender-conflicted person discreetly select and use either gender's restroom without making a big deal out of it?

 

Conflict? Conflicted? What do you mean?

 

 

[Lawman]

Where I went to school, in the south, we sorta had something like that. We had one restroom for those with a penis and another for everyone else..

[Twisties]

Diagram of the six human sex classes - Not necesarily work safe

[Joel]

I don't understand gender identity conflicts, so I'll be joining you in being baffled, particularly at the order of magnitude -- 20%?

 

Why couldn't a gender-conflicted person discreetly select and use either gender's restroom without making a big deal out of it?

 

Conflict? Conflicted? What do you mean?

 

In my view, someone with a psychological identification with a gender that does not match their anatomy has a conflict and is gender conflicted.

[Twisties]

I don't understand gender identity conflicts, so I'll be joining you in being baffled, particularly at the order of magnitude -- 20%?

 

Why couldn't a gender-conflicted person discreetly select and use either gender's restroom without making a big deal out of it?

 

Conflict? Conflicted? What do you mean?

 

In my view, someone with a psychological identification with a gender that does not match their anatomy has a conflict and is gender conflicted.

 

I guess your entitled to your view. I'll go with you as far as to say that I don't understand gender, not one bit. In my case I'd view my understanding of it as so limited as to be unqualified to reach a conclusion even that, for example, in the case of a person with male genitalia and a female gender, that their gender does not match their anatomy, much less that they are "conflicted". Add to that the fact that 1:100 have ambiguous genitalia...

 

I really think that we are just beginning to get the first glimpses of what is a very complex subject.

 

Jan

[Whip]

Where I went to school, in the south, we sorta had something like that. We had one restroom for those with a penis and another for everyone else..

 

 

....perfect sense to me.......Black and White Baby!!!!!

 

Whip

[leikam]

One bathroom sounds like the way to go to me.

 

Me too. I guess I've never really understood why bathrooms are gender segregated.

 

Why couldn't a gender-conflicted person discreetly select and use either gender's restroom without making a big deal out of it?

 

That's exactly what happens in restrooms across the US today. But apparently, the Thai bio-girls objected just as many people here would raise a stink if they realized that their assumptions weren't always correct.

[Gary in Aus]

In quite a few countries transgender identification/association begins at an early age , in Thailand some young men are encouraged to adopt a transexual way of life as part of the overall community structure , some parents groom the male child from a very early age ,only a couple of years old.

 

I am not sure of the date of this article from the BBC but I remember male/female toilets in Thailand for at least the last 20 years. It probably was a slow news day and that it was in Kampong ,a mainly rural area that generated the authors interest ,who knows?

 

In many Polynesian cultures "transexual" or "the feminisation of young men" if they are the correct terms , have been occuring for centuries. I have been to church in Samoa and at the morning tea that is held after the service , I was given a cup of tea , a small cake and a kiss on the cheek from and enormous young Samoan man ,wearing a females clothes. Speaking with some one his size with the mannerisms of a 13 year old girl was unusual.

 

You will also see similar occurences in Tonga, Vanuatu ,Fiji , Tahiti and among the Maori .

 

I think the US has been experiencing this transexual behaviour for hundreds of year as I think the native americans have also encouraged the feminisation of certain young men.

 

Maybe the transexual toilet signage is a variation of the unisex toilet signage of the early 80's in Germany and early 70's in France .

 

While using a urinal in Berlin as a 20 year old and having two middle aged ladies walk in and stand behind you talking in a foreign language puts a whole new meaning to the expression " an interupted flow".

 

I am sure you don't have to use one of these toilets if you don't want to.

[Albert]

[quote=Twisties} A friend who took a university course on gender told me there are something like 7 major genders, and many more less common ones, IIRC.

Jan

 

I think I dated one of the "less common ones" back when I was single.

[Matts_12GS]

[quote=Twisties} A friend who took a university course on gender told me there are something like 7 major genders, and many more less common ones, IIRC.

Jan

 

I think I dated one of the "less common ones" back when I was single.

 

I bet it was attracted to the hat Albert...

[Quinn]

It makes me wonder how much is biological and how much is sociatal. I also wonder how much of it for young teenage boys is I'm-not-accepted-by-this-group-so-I'll-join-this-other-group. Sort of like the baggie pants and skewed baseball cap crowd. It's hard to remember how much influence belonging to the group has on young males. Just look at your hair style and clothing in your high school yearbook. I always wondered if I'd be an old man wearing bell bottom blue jeans and ruffled shirts.

 

 

 

 

[SageRider]

I always wondered if I'd be an old man wearing bell bottom blue jeans and ruffled shirts.

So are you???

[Quinn]

I always wondered if I'd be an old man wearing bell bottom blue jeans and ruffled shirts.

So are you???

 

My peer group grew up and I dropped in. I don't even have an earring or ponytail like some of my age. I guess I'm still going with the flow and acting to meld with the group. Thank goodness they don't think their transsexuals; don't think I could pass the test.

 

 

[Gregori]

Well, according to this site: http://www.answers.com/topic/gender-identity

"While most children follow a predictable pattern in the acquisition of gender identity, some develop a gender identity inconsistent with their biological sex, a condition variously known as gender confusion, gender identity disorder, or transsexualism, which affects about one in 20,000 males and one in 50,000 females."

While I think that figure is way off (on the low side) the other source's figures of 20-30% seem to me to be grossly overestimated.

 

I have personally known many people outside the 'typical' gender identification/roles, and have had conversations about the prevalence and acceptance of those roles with them. (As they do tend to flock together with other nonstandard sexually identified people (is that PC enough for ya?!) they may thus have more inside knowledge about it.)

From these conversations, I've been told that the ratio is maybe one in ten (of all people) may FEEL like they don't belong to a 'normal' typing, but fewer than half of those people end up acting on, or expressing it. (But then, there are some in that group who think that EVERYONE is mixed up, and that only a select few are 'strong enough' to come out and declare it...)

 

The site I referenced above also mentions (incompletely) some of the things I've read elsewhere.

There are four separate components to sexual self-identification, which I'll summarize below.

 

Each component describes a range, and any person can fall anywhere along the scale in any of the categories:

Anatomy -- Male to female. While there is certainly a degree of variations spanning this, the distribution tends to be strong near (though not AT) the ends. MOST people tend to generally align with the other attributes generally associated with their outwardly obvious biological gender. (Which is, of course, how those stereotypes came to exist.)

Sexuality -- From heterosexual, through bisexual to homosexual on the other end. (Pun intended!) The charts I've seen showing distribution on this scale are not quite as polar. The (biologically) 'male' charts are more weighted toward hetero than the 'female' charts, but as with anything else, much of the results are going to societally influenced.

Behavioral -- Masculine/macho/"tomboy" to effeminate/sensitive/"home-maker." The distribution on this scale was more even than the others, while tending closer to the middle for both sexes, but - as with sexuality - the charts showed wider distribution for females.

And finally, the biggest component for people who consider themselves trans-gendered is CORE identity -- that hard to resolve inner feeling of MALEness or FEMALEness. This is most likely to coincide with biological gender, and when it doesn't, causes more distress and conflict in people than non-alignment with the norm either sexually or behaviorally.

 

(Yeah - I'm really just a graphic artist. I'm not sure how I get dragged into these conversations...)

 

Anyway - I don't see the need for a third bathroom. As accepting as I am about peoples differences, I don't think that much 'accommodation' is a realistic request. Just use the one that makes sense to you, and don't worry about what the person in the stall next to you thinks about it.

When I was in college, the dorm that I lived in had functionally non-gendered bathrooms. The official stance was that the bathrooms were 'boys' on the even numbered floors, 'girls' on the odd. But since the population of each floor was pretty evenly mixed, so was the toilet usage. (As I recall, there WERE a couple of designated floors where the bathroom use was 'enforced' as single gender, for those who couldn't deal with the blind eye turned to the casual use in the rest of the building.)

 

 

 

 

 

[Pilgrim]

Me too. I guess I've never really understood why bathrooms are gender segregated.

 

Awww, c'mon. That doesn't take a lot of thought. In fact, I'm not sure some of the reasons don't still apply.

 

Once upon a time it was conventional wisdom that a woman with her pants down in the same room with a man was in grievous danger of having her virtue assaulted, he being unable to control his animal instincts. Now we know it can go either way. You ain't lived until she reaches around while you're at the urinal and gives it a shake for you.

 

Of course, what woman would want to have anything to do with men if they knew the details of, uh, call it "bowel activities" of they guy they might be inclined to trust themselves to? Without doubt, women would grow up lesbian if they were exposed to that too soon.

 

Or what guy could maintain a romantic image of a woman (any woman) once he has discovered a used sanitary napkin the corner behind the toilet.

 

A friend of mine from my teenaged years worked at a gas station (back when there were gas stations). Part of his duties were to clean up the rest rooms. He wondered if he really knew how women were constructed since they could apparently pee three feet up on a wall.

 

Now we have women cleaning men's rest rooms and wondering if most of the guys in the world are underendowed (some women will, in an unguarded moment, refer to a guy as "Shorthorn". It's a shattering experience.) since they are apparently incapable of reaching a urinal with their stream, as the puddle in front of one will attest.

 

And so on. Some things just ought to be segregated for the sake of the species. We need our illusions if we're going to breed.

 

Where's the emoticon for "Yuck"?

 

Pilgrim

[Dave McReynolds]

We need our illusions if we're going to breed.

 

That might be as good an argument as any to switch to unisex bathrooms.

[leikam]

So, basically, it comes down to preventing rape, shielding fragile sensibilities and preserving the illusion that the opposite sex isn't human?

 

The first is serious yet I don't see how segregated bathrooms prevent anything. But if one did, one might as well advocate for a thoroughly sex-segregated public life -- perhaps along the lines of the Victorian era or some of the more restrictive Islamic societies.

 

The second two are bound to be destroyed sooner or later so why not avoid all those grave disappointments by never encouraging them in the first place?

 

Who knows, perhaps sharing bathroom space might encourage both/all sexes to be a little less messy. Plus, if you took your position seriously, the shattering of these illusions may just disgust the would-be rapist so much that he gives up on the idea altogether.

[Pilgrim]

Leikam said:

"So, basically, it comes down to preventing rape, shielding fragile sensibilities and preserving the illusion that the opposite sex isn't human?"

Oh, yes, please; more shielding. I grew up that way in rural Arkansas and it's been a hard battle surrendering the attitudes. I was 17 before I heard a girl swear; she said "Damn!" when she smacked a finger with a hammer dressing the gym for the Senior Prom. Now I wish that's all I heard these days - on TV or at the next table in Appleby's.

 

". . . one might as well advocate for a thoroughly sex-segregated public life -- perhaps along the lines of the Victorian era or some of the more restrictive Islamic societies."

Well, now that you mention it . . . Not islamic, certainly, but there seems to have been a certain charm to the Gilded Age. Men were men and women were damn glad they were. At least that's how I remember it.

 

Pilgrim

[leikam]

I grew up in metropolitan California a few years later with no memory of those attitudes. Different time, different place, different expectations. Still, good luck in creating that ideal world.

[Ken H.]

Of course, what woman would want to have anything to do with men if they knew the details of, uh, call it "bowel activities" of they guy they might be inclined to trust themselves to? Without doubt, women would grow up lesbian if they were exposed to that too soon.

No matter how gross they indeed may be, I'm not sure there are any studies supporting the idea that mens' bowel movements are a factor in the number of homosexual women in the world.

[Ken H.]

One bathroom sounds like the way to go to me.

 

Me too. I guess I've never really understood why bathrooms are gender segregated.

Me three. Evey place I've ever been (in the USA or elsewhere) that had 'unisex' toilets, it seemed to work just fine. People do what they came there to do and go about their day without a second thought.

 

Even at crowded (for example sporting events) the occasional woman will get tired of waiting in the long women's line and go in to the men's and use a stall. It seems to be no big deal to the guys there.

[Pilgrim]

I grew up in metropolitan California a few years later with no memory of those attitudes.

 

res ipsa loquitur

 

Pilgrim

 

[leikam]

risum teneatis, amici?

 

 

[russell_bynum]

Quisque comodeus est

[bakerzdosen]

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes.

[KMG_365]

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes.

Only on www.BMWSportTouring.com will you find such erudite banter!

 

Have I mentioned how MUCH I LOVE this place????

[Les is more]

Aliquantulus erudio est a periculosus res

[Tony_K]

Yeah, but I still don't know who this "bakerzdosen" person is since we lost real names in the profiles!

[bakerzdosen]

Even more confusing since I seem to have lost my title as well...

[Twisties]

Even more confusing since I seem to have lost my title as well...

 

Dude!

 

Let's celebrate!

 

Jan

[Pilgrim]

risum teneatis, amici?

 

 

Yeah, I got tinnitus, friend, and I don't laugh about it.

 

And yes, Russell, we were talking about commodes.

 

Pilgrim

[bakerzdosen]

Even more confusing since I seem to have lost my title as well...

 

Dude!

 

Let's celebrate!

Annnnd... it's back. Apparently the confusion was too great.

[sgendler]

Why couldn't a gender-conflicted person discreetly select and use either gender's restroom without making a big deal out of it?

 

That's exactly what most of them do. Unfortunately, at least in the US, there are plenty of non-gender-conflicted folks who WILL make a big deal of it if they know it is happening.

 

Case in point, I have a friend who is a post-op male to female transexual. All of her legal documentation shows her to be female (including birth certificate, which you can actually get modified, it turns out). Her anatomy is as female as it is possible to get. She doesn't look particularly male, other than being 6'2" tall and a little more well muscled than most women. She was at a nightclub a week or so ago, and was physically assaulted by a security guard when she attempted to use the women's restroom. The odd thing about the whole event is that the security guard was a VERY butch lesbian (or at least, donig her damnedest to give the impression of being a very butch lesbian) , and the club was hosting an event that catered to people who have, shall we say, unconventional attitudes toward sexuality (basically, a BSDM thing). It was the last place in the world that Jen expected to have an issue based on her former gender, but not only was she physically abused by the security guard, but she was then thrown out of the club by 4 or 5 more (none of whom had any idea why they were throwing her out, of course - they were just following orders at that point). Needless to say, a lawsuit is pending, though I can't imagine that they won't settle since there were a whole bunch of witnesses who are friendly to Jen's account of events. But if the moron security guard had simply not made a fuss, nothing would have happened. And this isn't a case of a security guard thinking that Jen was a guy attempting to slip into the ladies room. Jen has boobs, long hair, female makeup, was wearing a skirt, and offered a California drivers' license that identified her as female.

 

If you can come up with a way to prevent that kind of drama, then there'd be no need for a transexual bathroom. Most trannies I know wouldn't use such a bathroom, in any case - unless they were absolutely required to. In my experience, they don't identify as trans-gendered so much as they identify as whatever gender they happen to be expressing at the moment.

[WURTY]

OH Sam

You party in the right places.

I need to hang out with you for a week.

Man I miss you.

 

Love wurty

[Ken H.]

How did the security guard know she was a transsexual?

[russell_bynum]

How did the security guard know she was a transsexual?

 

+1

 

I really have to think there's more to this story.

 

Someone who looks like a girl, who's driver's license says she's a girl is at a night club catering to people with very open views about sexuality gets physically thrown out of the club for nothing more than trying to use the women's restroom?

 

There's either more to that story, or this wasn't about gender identity at all.