Is your diagnosis the same as mine?

[DavidEBSmith]

I've just started seeing apparent low-voltage ABS faults on my RT. The ABS lights flash together upon turning the key on, then switch to alternating flashing as I hit the starter button. Here's some facts:

 

- The battery is a new Odyssey installed in April 2005.

 

- The bike is connected to a Battery Tender Jr. whenever parked.

 

- The ABS fault happens even if you wait or 4 or 5 flashes after turning on the key and before hitting the starter button.

 

- The ABS fault always happens on the first startup after the bike has been sitting for a while.

 

- Perhaps half to two-thirds of the time, if I ride for a bit, turn off the ignition, and restart the bike, the ABS fault clears. "A bit" can be anywhere from revving the motor a few times in the driveway to riding 50 feet to riding 30 miles.

 

- If I can start the bike without getting the ABS fault, it doesn't happen during riding - it only happens upon starting.

 

- The ABS fault seems (from a small number of tests) to not happen when the bike is hot.

 

- The battery voltage at the dashboard accessory plug is about 12.8 - 12.9 volts. At idle with the bike hot, the alternator voltage is about 13.5 volts.

 

- On hitting the starter button the voltage drops to 9 - 10 volts.

 

- When I plug in the Battery Tender, the red light comes on for a few seconds and switches to green.

 

- Holding the clutch in when starting doesn't make any apparent difference in triggering faults.

 

- The bike has 130K miles on it.

 

- Subjectively, when the ABS fault happens it "feels" like the bike is harder to crank and/or cranks slower. When the ABS fault doesn't happen, it "feels" like the bike is cranking easier.

 

I have a suspicion as to what the problem may be. Any guesses?

[Dave C.]

I'll give it a shot. The first thing I'd look at is the battery cables. If they have no corrosion and have no voltage loss I'd suspect maybe the starter is going bad.

 

Dave

[Parrothead]

bad battery? why the tender? i have the same battery (better than 2 years old) and only charged it if I didn't run the bike for over a week or so............

[SAAB93driver]

I thought Encyclopedia Brown was dead. Assuming electrical and not mechanical I'd say starter motor or faulty load shed relay.

[DavidEBSmith]

The load shed relay sheds loads.

 

Also, turning off the lights and all the electronics doesn't make a noticeable difference as to whether the fault faults or not.

[David]

My diagnosis? That you have an old bike. And if it were a building in Chicago, we'd have to condemn the thing.

 

Good thing you don't have an IronButt coming up. Maybe you ought to slap a Ural tag on it and lower your expectations.

[big-t]

You might want to look at the starter,it could be dragging the battery voltage too low when starting.The field magnets are glued in and there have been a number of cases where they have come loose and rotated over against the next coil.Starter seems to work,but draws too many amps.

[Stan Walker]

Bad, dirty, or loose battery cable. Don't forget to check the both ends of both cables for good connections (clean and tight).

 

Bad starter (not un-heard of on oilheads). The field windings can come loose (just glued), or so I have heard. Additional drag within the starter causes more current to flow, reducing apparent voltage and causing fault.

 

Bad battery, even fairly new batteries go bad sometimes. I've got a brand new Odyssey sitting in my garage you could try, of couse you have to ride here first......

 

Stan

[Stan Walker]

Maybe you ought to slap a Ural tag on it and lower your expectations.

 

LMAO

 

Stan

[Paul Mihalka]

Starter motor.

[bmwmick]

The load shed relay sheds loads.

 

Also, turning off the lights and all the electronics doesn't make a noticeable difference as to whether the fault faults or not.

 

Edbie,

I fought the same battle with my '96 R1100RT. You 'could' go here and clean/lube the starter:

http://www.largiader.com/tech/valeo/ But I don't think that will 'fix' it for long if at all.

 

Sent you a PM

 

Mick

Tucson

[leikam]

Interesting. I've been seeing the same thing on my '98RT over the last couple weeks. No diagnosis yet on my end but I'm interested to hear what you think your problem is.

[steve.foote]

David, I think it's just a crappy marquee. If you had bought a better brand, you wouldn't he having these problems at 130k miles.

[270]

Dude, I can't see anything more than what has been posted. There must be something causing more the normal resistance at start-up, but it's preplexing that it only does it when cold, and not hot. Not impossible, just wierd.

 

I'd say look at the battery cables, starter connections, especially ground, and then starter. Let me know if there's anything I can do to help!

[DavidEBSmith]

OK, my diagnosis is the starter.

 

I think it starts easier when it's hot because everything (including whatever gunk is in the starter) is loosened up. It's sort of intermittent because it's starting to get draggy and it sometimes more draggy (drawing more current and faulting) and sometimes less draggy (drawing less current and not faulting).

 

I lean away from it being the battery because the fault is variable. I can start it twice and get faults and the third time no fault. If it was the battery, I'd expect the power to get sucked out and keep decreasing with consecutive starts, not decrease then increase.

 

Could also be the battery cable. The connections at the battery end should not be an issue (I coated them with that copper-filled grease for high-current connections), so if it's a cable, it should be at the starter end. Which I'll need to get to whether it's the cable or the starter.

 

But time is getting tight. Don't want to be running around the country with a lingering doubt. New starter makes one less thing to think about in August. So a new starter is on order.

[270]

OK, my diagnosis is the starter.

 

I think it starts easier when it's hot because everything (including whatever gunk is in the starter) is loosened up. It's sort of intermittent because it's starting to get draggy and it sometimes more draggy (drawing more current and faulting) and sometimes less draggy (drawing less current and not faulting).

 

I lean away from it being the battery because the fault is variable. I can start it twice and get faults and the third time no fault. If it was the battery, I'd expect the power to get sucked out and keep decreasing with consecutive starts, not decrease then increase.

 

Could also be the battery cable. The connections at the battery end should not be an issue (I coated them with that copper-filled grease for high-current connections), so if it's a cable, it should be at the starter end. Which I'll need to get to whether it's the cable or the starter.

 

But time is getting tight. Don't want to be running around the country with a lingering doubt. New starter makes one less thing to think about in August. So a new starter is on order.

 

Smart man. It's late in the game to be sweating details like this. This damn sport will break us all one component at a time!

[DavidEBSmith]

This damn sport will break us all one component at a time!

 

Last Saturday I went in to talk to the mechanic who prepped my bike the last two times and who is now working at a new shop, to see if he could work on it again. We got to talking about what needs to be replaced, what should be replaced, and what doesn't need to be replaced. The latter is the short list. The good news is that when we're done, about the only old parts on the bike will be the tupperware and the speedometer. The bad news is, when we're done, about the only old parts on the bike will be the tupperware and the speedometer.

 

Actually, not that bad. Regular service, new fluids, replace the cables, sight glass, alternator belt. Replace the Hall sensor, just for peace of mind. Then he asked about the final drive, and when I said it was original, he got this funny look on his face like he ate something bad. Well, what's another $700 at this point, right?

 

If (g-d forbid) I'm gonna DNF, I want it to be something totally unexpected and unpreventable, or my fault. I don't want to be thinking "if only I had fixed this" (because there will be enough "if only I had done this").

 

I keep telling myself it's better than a new bike payment. Don't anybody do the calculations.

[270]

This damn sport will break us all one component at a time!

 

Last Saturday I went in to talk to the mechanic who prepped my bike the last two times and who is now working at a new shop, to see if he could work on it again. We got to talking about what needs to be replaced, what should be replaced, and what doesn't need to be replaced. The latter is the short list. The good news is that when we're done, about the only old parts on the bike will be the tupperware and the speedometer. The bad news is, when we're done, about the only old parts on the bike will be the tupperware and the speedometer.

 

Actually, not that bad. Regular service, new fluids, replace the cables, sight glass, alternator belt. Replace the Hall sensor, just for peace of mind. Then he asked about the final drive, and when I said it was original, he got this funny look on his face like he ate something bad. Well, what's another $700 at this point, right?

 

If (g-d forbid) I'm gonna DNF, I want it to be something totally unexpected and unpreventable, or my fault. I don't want to be thinking "if only I had fixed this" (because there will be enough "if only I had done this").

 

I keep telling myself it's better than a new bike payment. Don't anybody do the calculations.

 

Nah, I don't even try to calculate it. My bike is brand new, but that doesn't mean that I'm not sweating some smaller details like the alt. belt. I bought a new one and will probably replace just for piece of mind and bring along the old one. Actually, I've heard of more people having problems with new bikes than with old bikes that are sorted. You'll be fine.

 

I got some extra large lids so I can carry a spare final drive, spare brake servo system, hall sensors, alternator belt, throttle cables, drive shaft, George my mechanic, and an oil filter. Not bringing any fresh clothes this year...no room.

 

Kidding! Sheesh.

[DavidEBSmith]

Fresh clothes are overrated anyway. When you need to run inside the gas station for that receipt, everybody gets out of your way if you've been wearing the same clothes for more than four or five days.

[skinny_tom (aka boney)]

The load shed relay sheds loads.

 

Hijack:

 

How much load could a load shed relay shed if a load shed relay could shed load?

 

 

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

 

1 more vote for the starter.

[KMG_365]

The load shed relay sheds loads.

 

Hijack:

 

How much load could a load shed relay shed if a load shed relay could shed load?

 

LMAO!!!

[DavidEBSmith]

Now I'm confused. Starting the bike this morning, after it's been sitting on a Battery Tender for a week, I get the low-voltage ABS fault. Can't clear it by stopping and restarting. I rode down to Pontiac (about 100 miles) to scope out my IBR transport. The bike sat for about 3 hours as we stood around and gabbed. I left the V1 and the GPS III+ on during that time.

 

When I went to leave, the bike wouldn't start. It cranked weakly a few times until the starter solenoid started chattering. Turn the key off, key on, same thing. I got it to turn slowly about 5 or 6 times, but it clearly wouldn't fire. We tried bump starting it, no go. We figured out a way to jump start it without taking the fairing off, and with a truck battery connected to it, it fired right up.

 

I rode the 100 miles home in 4th gear to keep the alternator speed up, with the headlight and all the electrical gear off. Pulled the bike into the garage, shut it off and restarted it. It fired up strongly, no ABS fault. I did that 5 times and it started each time with no fault. I turned on the headlight and all the electronics, and it started 2 more times with no fault.

 

So now I don't know. A bad starter will usually drag more when it's hot, not when it's cold. When it wouldn't start, it had all the symptoms of a bad battery, yet after riding the same distance back that I rode down there, the battery was apparently fully charged. I know the V1 and the GPS III+ don't draw enough power to kill a battery in 3 hours.

 

So the possibilities are:

 

- The starter is dragging when cold but OK when hot. Weird.

 

- The battery will take a full charge from the alternator but loses it rapidly when it sits(and the Battery Tender isn't charging it up when the bike is garaged). I have no idea how this could physically happen.

 

- There's some drain on the battery that is so large, it kills the battery in 3 hours. And it must be so large that the Battery Tender can pump in just enough current to keep the battery sort of charged. Wha?

 

- The alternator is charging really good at 4000 rpm but just enough to keep the warning light off at 2800 rpm. Just typing it, that sounds stupid.

 

I have a new starter from EuroMotoElectric ($70 under Chicago BMW's price!), so I guess the plan of attack is to pull the tupperware, check for power drains, check the connections, try one of the old batteries in the garage to see if it starts better with that, replace the starter. Anybody wanna do a starter tech day tomorrow?

 

(And I also just figured out that the BT on the F650 doesn't work, because the battery on that bike is discharged. And I had problems with the Exploder battery draining last week, too. Did somebody slip some sort of negative energy vortex into my garage when I wasn't looking?)

[Bprimm]

On hitting the starter button the voltage drops to 9 - 10 volts.

 

David, the voltage should only drop to around 11.2 volts with a sound battery. You can check voltage readings when the bike and battery are at operating temp to see if this holds true. (provided you didn't get the ABS fault)

 

Either swap in a known good battery from a friend or have the battery load tested. You'll need someone with a small amp load testing unit. Not always easy to find but small engine/lawnmower repair shops and some auto parts stores have them.

 

Here is an example of strange glass mat bats.

Absolutely nothing when I turned the key on a 15hp Husquvarna. Turned the switch to "lights" for 30 seconds... waited 15 seconds... got a bendix click. Each time I repeated that "switch on and wait" the battery got stronger untill the engine eventually turned fast enough to start.

 

A few days later, the battery would be at the same condition. Not even a click.

 

(And I also just figured out that the BT on the F650 doesn't work, because the battery on that bike is discharged. And I had problems with the Exploder battery draining last week, too. Did somebody slip some sort of negative energy vortex into my garage when I wasn't looking?) YEP!!

[Larsen]

David,

There have been some bad Odyssey batteries reported. Have you swapped out the battery and given it a try?

 

Also, do you have the contact info on EuroMotoElectric?

 

Good luck,

[ShovelStrokeEd]

- The alternator is charging really good at 4000 rpm but just enough to keep the warning light off at 2800 rpm. Just typing it, that sounds stupid.

 

EB, this could well be the case. 700 watts available at 4000 RPM doesn't translate to 490 watts at 3000, probably more like 350 watts at that speed. The output is not linear and heavily favors the upper revs.

 

I would also suggest that your battery may no longer be the strapping lad it once was, able to put out maximum effort over long periods of time and then bounce back with nary a problem the next day. Hmmmm! Sounds kinda like meself.

 

I'd start budgeting for a replacement battery.

[DavidEBSmith]

700 watts available at 4000 RPM doesn't translate to 490 watts at 3000, probably more like 350 watts at that speed.

 

Well, what I meant was that if it was an alternator problem, riding 100 miles at 4000 rpm with no electrical accessories charged the battery, but riding 100 miles at 3000 rpm with electrical accessories there was only enough alternator output to keep the alternator light off. And keep the light off all the way down to idle. It's just hard to believe that the alternator would be putting out just enough to keep the light off, but enough to significantly charge the battery, from idle up to 3000 rpm, and then at 4000 rpm there's suddenly enough power to charge the h*ll out of the battery.

 

I would also suggest that your battery may no longer be the strapping lad it once was

 

It was new in April 2005, and I replaced it because the 2 year old battery in the bike was giving me ABS faults on startup. Which would point at the starter, or two bad batteries.

[ShovelStrokeEd]

Simple checks with a voltmeter should get you enough information.

 

Battery voltage at rest. Anything below 12.6 volts makes battery suspect.

 

Battery voltage during cranking. Shouldn't drop below about 11.5 volts. Too low may be starter or battery.

 

Battery voltage during normal running. 13.2 to around 14 volts depending on your voltage regulator. In any case, not below that 12.6 volts, even at idle. Your alternator output may, in fact, be bad.

 

Battery voltage durning high RPM operation. Here it MUST maintain that 13 plus volts against your normal electrical load.

[Rob L]

one more thing to check, hook up an amp meter in series with the battery (either pole) and see if there is any drain while the bike is at rest.

[nrp]

Expect to find a contimuous static discharge of about 30 milliamps (at least that's what I measured on my 2000RT) although expect a surge when you first connect things up.

 

I'm surprised it takes that much RPM to get substantial output from the alternator.....

[bmwmick]

Expect to find a contimuous static discharge of about 30 milliamps (at least that's what I measured on my 2000RT) although expect a surge when you first connect things up.

 

I'm surprised it takes that much RPM to get substantial output from the alternator.....

 

The spec on our alternator states 18A at 1,000RPM is the 'nominal' output. I know my '96 R11RT can maintain 13.8'ish at idle of 1,100RPM.

 

Mick

[DavidEBSmith]

Update:

 

On the way up to Full Moon and back again, no ABS faults. In the driveway, I started the bike a couple of times, no faults. I finally let the bike sit for about 10 seconds with the headlight, auxiliary lights, and electronics on, and got an ABS fault.

 

Picked up a battery tester from Pep Boys. (With all the stuff in the garage having battery problems, I think I'll need it). The Odyssey measured 12.9 volts with no load, which indicates fully charged. Did OK on the load test.

 

For comparison, last night I charged up the 2 year old battery I removed in March when I had some ABS faults. No load voltage on that was something like 12.7. It gave the same reading on the load test as the Odyssey.

 

One thing I did notice is that when I did the load test multiple times in a row, the old lead-acid battery retained somewhat more capacity than the Odyssey. Whether this is because the old battery was freshly charged, and the Odyssey had started the bike several times and not been allowed to recharge afterwards (and was also nice and hot from being on the bike), or if it indicates an issue with the Odyssey, I dunno. In any case, even though it showed somewhat less capacity, the Odyssey was still in the OK range on the tester.

 

I also checked for unusual parasitic loads. I found an unusual one, but not anything big. With no accessories connected, the base current drain (probably just the clock) was 2.2 mA. If I plugged in the remote display for the V1, even though the V1 was off, the current drain jumped up to 15 mA. This, and the fact that sometimes the display would come on if the battery was low, tells me that there's some funky circuit in the remote display that's always live.

 

Other power drains I measured were:

 

2610 with remote antenna - 350 mA

Tank bag electronics (Roady2 w/power supply, Koss wireless headphone sender, CD player power supply) - 450 mA

V1 with audio adapter and remote display - 300 mA

GPS III+ - 48 mA

 

So all my electronic accessories draw somewhere around 2A, or use about 28 watts of power. It also tells me that leaving on the V1 and the GPS III+, at about 340mA, shouldn't drain a D cell in 3 hours, let alone a motorcycle battery.

 

Since I had the left side fairing off to get to the battery anyway, and was gonna remove the starter connection to check for corrosion, I just figured WTF, let's replace the starter.

 

If you didn't have to remove 18 screws to get to it, it would be easy. You have to remove the left side fairing, and it seems like you need to remove the left side footpeg plate, although you might be able to reach around it and get to the bolts. There's two bolts that hold the starter on, one right in front that you can see, and one in the back that you need to get down on the floor to see (and need a socket u-joint and an extendion to get to). One nut for the + connection, one slide-on connector, and the starter comes off.

 

Nothing noticable about the old starter. Lots of black gunky dust around the gear. Turning the gear backwards by hand (against the Bendix), the new one felt nice and smooth, the old one felt gritty and catchy. The + connector had some oxidation, but no corrosion, and nothing that looked like it would be much of a barrier to an 80 amp starting current. Just to be sure, I cleaned the connector with connector cleaner (duh) and put some of that copper-filled grease stuff on the lug bolt.

 

To replace it, there's a pin on the bike that goes into a hole on the starter body. You line that up and rotate the starter a bit clockwise to get the bolt holes to line up. When you do that, it engages the gear on the starter with the gear teeth on the flywheel. Bolt everything up and it's done.

 

There was a noticeable difference in cranking between the old and new starter. You could feel the old one crank, and the new one is like POW. Even after all the load testing on the battery, the bike fired right up with no ABS fault. I restarted it several times, no problem. I finally turned on the headlight, electronics, and high beam driving lights (100 watts each), got the ABS fault (at the point that the battery was pretty well abused).

 

So I feel better now that the starter has been replaced. I'm still not entirely sure about the Odyssey battery, but if I keep seeing faults, I know what to blame. I also suspect that that 2 year old battery I took out of the bike is probably OK, just in case I need one quick.

[Matts_12GS]

I have no first hand experience with this, but a friend with a XM Roady reported having an issue with his battery being run down by the XM system not being wired to turn everything off with the key off.

 

Just a thought.