Pickens Plan...wow

[hANNAbONE]

http://www.pickensplan.com/

[Calvin (no socks)]

Cool, I want a propane powered K bike (under 2000 lbs.) with nitrous oxide to ride out to Torrey...

 

Ya can't even find gas in the state on a Sunday! Imagine propane will be tougher to come by.... we'll have to stockpile it at Killers.......

 

Could you help a buddy out and loan me some propane to make it to Cedar City....I tweaked the regulator for a spirited ride and now mileage is down to like 34....

[bakerzdosen]

Funny. We were just talking about this at lunch. The next decade or two is gonna be interesting for sure.

[Shaman97]

Sounds like a good place to get started. The country needs a comprehensive energy policy that may incorporate none, some, or all of the Pickens Plan.

 

At this point, the worst thing we could do is to do nothing.

[smiller]

What? You mean there are possibilities beyond 'drill more wells'..?

[Whip]

What? You mean there are possibilities beyond 'drill more wells'..?

 

 

Not really......but it's fun to talk about.

 

 

 

 

[smiller]

Hmmm... maybe you should call T. Boone Pickens and enlighten him as to the realities of the oil industry...

[kudzu]

 

Not to take anything away from T. Boone Pickens, he did not get where he is by being anybody's fool, and certainly not to suggest that we should not explore every possibility for alternative energy sources, I believe if you follow the money, you will find Pickens' proposal is ultimately very self-serving.

[hANNAbONE]

Not to take anything away from T. Boone Pickens, he did not get where he is by being anybody's fool, and certainly not to suggest that we should not explore every possibility for alternative energy sources, I believe if you follow the money, you will find Pickens' proposal is ultimately very self-serving.

 

i'M very certain of that..

[smiller]

I believe if you follow the money, you will find Pickens' proposal is ultimately very self-serving.

And unproven. Don't forget unproven. I know the drill by now...

 

I think the central point here are the ideas that are being proposed, not the distractions.

[Whip]

Not to take anything away from T. Boone Pickens, he did not get where he is by being anybody's fool, and certainly not to suggest that we should not explore every possibility for alternative energy sources, I believe if you follow the money, you will find Pickens' proposal is ultimately very self-serving.

 

+1

 

Drill Now Pay Less

 

[Dave McReynolds]

Not to take anything away from T. Boone Pickens, he did not get where he is by being anybody's fool, and certainly not to suggest that we should not explore every possibility for alternative energy sources, I believe if you follow the money, you will find Pickens' proposal is ultimately very self-serving.

 

i'M very certain of that..

 

Which is not to take anything away from his proposal. Assuming that most things most people propose, from marriage to matchsticks, contain an element of self-interest, our job is to determine when our interests are congruent, and when the proposal is contrary to our own self-interests. I don't have enough expertise to form any conclusions as to whether his proposal is in our self-interest or not, but I do know we need to do something, and I'm happy to have him thinking about it.

 

It would be refreshing, if when someone like Pickens proposes something like this, he would add something like, "And in the interest of full disclosure, if my proposal is accepted, I hope to make many millions of dollars from working to make it happen, as I would expect many others of you will also." Maybe that thought is too glaringly obvious to him to bother saying, but it would still make the rest of us feel less cynical about his motivations if he said it.

[Boffin]

What strikes me about this is that someone who has earned a great deal of money in the oil industry, and is privy to the full facts in that realm, has decided that the best way to maintain that wealth-earning capacity is to diversify into alternate energy sources. It is not the potential for profit in alternate energy I find intriguing, but the implied lack of potential in oil, where his billions were made.

 

Andy

[Dave McReynolds]

What strikes me about this is that someone who has earned a great deal of money in the oil industry, and is privy to the full facts in that realm, has decided that the best way to maintain that wealth-earning capacity is to diversify into alternate energy sources. It is not the potential for profit in alternate energy I find intriguing, but the implied lack of potential in oil, where his billions were made.

 

Andy

 

It amazes me that anyone with that many billions still has the desire for billions more. Do you think it's the same motivation that makes me play my 1051st Freecell game?

[Whip]

"His plan follows his own businesses. His Mesa Power is pouring about $12 billion into what would be the world's largest wind farm near Pampa, Texas. He's on the board of the country's biggest provider of natural gas for vehicles, and his hedge fund company, BP Capital, with some $4 billion under management, has bet heavily on natural gas producers."

 

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5882292.html

 

...more.

 

And you'll do all this on your beautiful 68,000-acre ranch?

I'm not going to have the windmills on my ranch. They're ugly. The hub of each turbine is up 280 feet, and then you have a 120-foot radius on the blade. It's the size of a 40-story building.

 

So whose land is it going on?

My neighbors', mainly south of my ranch. They'll get royalties of 4% to 7% on the energy produced, an average per turbine of $10,000 to $20,000 per year. They still can run cattle or farm on the land with the turbines there too. We'll put in only five per square mile. And unlike oil, this is not a declining situation. Let's say a guy has a 3 megawatt turbine, and it does $20,000 per year. It's going to be out there for, say, 100 years. You're talking about $2 million. It's not like having an oil well that's a real pisser for a few years, and then it starts to decline.

 

 

http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/126/a-mighty-wind.html?page=0%2C0

 

 

Hey Les.....Didn't you sing for this dude??????

 

Or do I have the wrong guy?????

 

Whip

 

 

[Whip]

"His plan follows his own businesses. His Mesa Power is pouring about $12 billion into what would be the world's largest wind farm near Pampa, Texas. He's on the board of the country's biggest provider of natural gas for vehicles, and his hedge fund company, BP Capital, with some $4 billion under management, has bet heavily on natural gas producers."

 

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5882292.html

 

...more.

 

Q...And you'll do all this on your beautiful 68,000-acre ranch?

 

A...I'm not going to have the windmills on my ranch. They're ugly. The hub of each turbine is up 280 feet, and then you have a 120-foot radius on the blade. It's the size of a 40-story building.

 

Q...So whose land is it going on?

 

A...My neighbors', mainly south of my ranch. They'll get royalties of 4% to 7% on the energy produced, an average per turbine of $10,000 to $20,000 per year. They still can run cattle or farm on the land with the turbines there too. We'll put in only five per square mile. And unlike oil, this is not a declining situation. Let's say a guy has a 3 megawatt turbine, and it does $20,000 per year. It's going to be out there for, say, 100 years. You're talking about $2 million. It's not like having an oil well that's a real pisser for a few years, and then it starts to decline.

 

 

http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/126/a-mighty-wind.html?page=0%2C0

 

 

Hey Les.....Didn't you sing for this dude??????

 

Or do I have the wrong guy?????

 

Whip

 

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

It amazes me that anyone with that many billions still has the desire for billions more. Do you think it's the same motivation that makes me play my 1051st Freecell game?

 

I think for the insanely wealthy, many pursue further wealth not out of any perverse insecurity or greed, but simply as a desire for some measure of success. For them, "I made a billion dollars last year" isn't a boast about how rich they are, it's a measure for themselves of how much they accomplished.

 

[Silver Surfer/AKAButters]

It amazes me that anyone with that many billions still has the desire for billions more. Do you think it's the same motivation that makes me play my 1051st Freecell game?

 

I think for the insanely wealthy, many pursue further wealth not out of any perverse insecurity or greed, but simply as a desire for some measure of success. For them, "I made a billion dollars last year" isn't a boast about how rich they are, it's a measure for themselves of how much they accomplished.

 

+1 It's the competetive nature of humanity hard at work. Anything after the first $B.

[velomoto]

Not to take anything away from T. Boone Pickens, he did not get where he is by being anybody's fool, and certainly not to suggest that we should not explore every possibility for alternative energy sources, I believe if you follow the money, you will find Pickens' proposal is ultimately very self-serving.

Excuse me, but since when was starting a new business NOT self-serving? For those of us who work, to some degree work itself is self-serving - among the many reasons I work, I do it to make $$$ for me! Would Pickens have been any less self-serving if he had instead invested in a new oil rig or two?

 

Think of all the self-serving side affects Pickens will cause... Jobs for building infra structure (new roads, powerline), jobs at the turbine and windmill mfg companies, jobs transporting and setting up the turbines, jobs supporting all those other jobs.

 

Is Pickens self-serving because the wind farm may help America's energy problems and also reduce the dependence on foreign oil?

 

Me? I hope the wind farm is a huge success and Pickens makes several more billion on this venture, for this will be a sign that it wind power is commercially viable and that will be good for America.

[velomoto]

Drill Now Pay Less

Yup.. that is proof that Graham was right - we are a bunch of whiners!

 

 

[KMG_365]

Hey Les.....Didn't you sing for this dude??????

 

Or do I have the wrong guy?????

 

Whip

 

Yeah, we sang Christmas Carols at one of his homes here in San Diego at his private family Christmas. They all were completely charming, attentive and gracious as I recall.

 

If we're going to be spending trillions of dollars on energy I'd sure rather it stay in-house. Not only would it be a better cash-flow problem, but we'd probably have to kill a lot fewer people that way too. There's not much in the way of middle class jobs left thanks to out-sourcing to the third world. If the windmills are going to be manufactured in China at least it'd be nice to hire Americans to install the infrastructure and service them.

 

Hell, even the new fire hose we're buying is made in China!

[velomoto]

If we're going to be spending trillions of dollars on energy I'd sure rather it stay in-house. Not only would it be a better cash-flow problem, but we'd probably have to kill a lot fewer people that way too. There's not much in the way of middle class jobs left thanks to out-sourcing to the third world. If the windmills are going to be manufactured in China at least it'd be nice to hire Americans to install the infrastructure and service them.

 

Hell, even the new fire hose we're buying is made in China!

Good news - two new companies in Colorado building windmills. No telling if or when these jobs will get outsourced to Asia (let's not forget all those high tech jobs moving to India after all).

[wolcott]

Hey Les.....Didn't you sing for this dude??????

 

Or do I have the wrong guy?????

 

Whip

 

Yeah, we sang Christmas Carols at one of his homes here in San Diego at his private family Christmas. They all were completely charming, attentive and gracious as I recall.

 

If we're going to be spending trillions of dollars on energy I'd sure rather it stay in-house. Not only would it be a better cash-flow problem, but we'd probably have to kill a lot fewer people that way too. There's not much in the way of middle class jobs left thanks to out-sourcing to the third world. If the windmills are going to be manufactured in China at least it'd be nice to hire Americans to install the infrastructure and service them.

 

Hell, even the new fire hose we're buying is made in China! [/quote}

 

Communist Chinese fire hose, Jamie? What the hell? You would think something would still be made in America. Also, I read an article where T.Boone Pickens said he would NOT have wind turbines on his property b/c they were "ugly". What a hypocrite!

 

 

 

 

 

[kudzu]

 

Not to take anything away from T. Boone Pickens, he did not get where he is by being anybody's fool, and certainly not to suggest that we should not explore every possibility for alternative energy sources, I believe if you follow the money, you will find Pickens' proposal is ultimately very self-serving.

Excuse me, but since when was starting a new business NOT self-serving?...

You are absolutely right - that's what makes the system work. I am a capitalist pig and true-believer. My point, and I should have made it clearer, is only that his proposal is not altruistic.

 

There is also an arguement to be made that the success, particualrly the initial success, of Pickens' proposal is dependent on government (tax payer) subsidy. Here we veer towards the political but, if that's the case, that's where I start having reservations.

 

[smiller]

There is also an arguement to be made that the success, particualrly the initial success, of Pickens' proposal is dependent on government (tax payer) subsidy.

You don't think that our dependence on foreign oil requires a taxpayer subsidy? Have you seen our military budget lately?

 

[Slyder_Steve]

As said previously, someone's going to make a buck doing this and I'm all for keeping this buck in the local economy--as opposed to some guy who comes to my country and calls my elected leader "the devil". Right or wrong, he's my elected leader and for some wanker (great British term) to come to my house and...sorry, I digress. It's a family thing...I can beat up my brother, but you'd better not lay a hand on him...

 

If we need government subsities to make it happen...well honestly, I'm just having a hard time figuring out how it would be a bad thing. Making 100% (or somewhere close) of our electricity from renewable sources and using "alternative" sources for the other stuff....gees, that would just be a great thing.

 

(Disclosure statement: this comes from a guy who does not curently live in an area suitable for so called "wind farms")

 

So what do I want?...hANNABONE, thanks for asking...I want a Ford F150 (or equivalent) that gets 35+ MPG. I don't care if it's diesel or gas or ??. I want my money paid for my utilities to go for the better good of "my" country (don't care if it's USA, Canada, UK, EU, AUS, NZ, etc) just don't want my money to be paying for the frickin' guns that are pointed at me (or my [your] kids), the next time I make a nice one year(ish) all expenses paid trip to a hot, sunny, dry place. Maybe, by being self sufficient, we can make these places irrelevant.

 

In the mean time, I'll keep riding my 43+mpg RT and try to enjoy the ride.

 

Slyder

[Gregori]

... Also, I read an article where T.Boone Pickens said he would NOT have wind turbines on his property b/c they were "ugly". What a hypocrite!

 

How's that hypocritical? He's never claimed they're pretty. He says they're good energy producers, and will generate good revenue for those who have them on their land - and even that they're a more reliable income than oil (and doesn't say but it should be obvious that they're less messy, noisy, and ugly than oil rigs.) But "pretty" ain't on the list he's selling.

 

Myself - I think they're kinda cool... If I had the space (and wind conditions) to put one up, I'd be happily selling juice to the electric company!

[bakerzdosen]

My understanding of windmills was that there is no way that they'll last 100 years. 20-30 was the typical lifespan of current technology windmills. They're supposedly really dangerous after that much time due to metal fatigue. Am I wrong?

[Lawman]

What? You mean there are possibilities beyond 'drill more wells'..?

 

 

Not really......but it's fun to talk about.

 

 

 

 

You're right Whip,

What happens once we've transferred all the wind energy into electricity and the wind stops? All those wind chime companies will go out of business, many will lose their jobs and the need for govenment assistance will only continue to rise..I think we're dead in the water...

[Shaman97]

You're right Whip,

What happens once we've transferred all the wind energy into electricity and the wind stops? All those wind chime companies will go out of business, many will lose their jobs and the need for govenment assistance will only continue to rise..I think we're dead in the water...

 

Sounds like a 'Deteriorata' moment.

[Slyder_Steve]

My understanding of windmills was that there is no way that they'll last 100 years. 20-30 was the typical lifespan of current technology windmills. They're supposedly really dangerous after that much time due to metal fatigue. Am I wrong?

 

I don't believe anyone's suggesting the actual windmill will last 100+ years--just the source of energy (i.e. wind) won't dry up like oil wells do. We'll have to swap out windmills, generators, etc when appropriate--especially as the technology matures and becomes more efficient.

 

Slyder

[Dave McReynolds]

My understanding of windmills was that there is no way that they'll last 100 years. 20-30 was the typical lifespan of current technology windmills. They're supposedly really dangerous after that much time due to metal fatigue. Am I wrong?

 

I don't believe anyone's suggesting the actual windmill will last 100+ years--just the source of energy (i.e. wind) won't dry up like oil wells do. We'll have to swap out windmills, generators, etc when appropriate--especially as the technology matures and becomes more efficient.

 

Slyder

 

Clearly improvements need to be made before Pickens's dream could be realized. I've had clients invest in windmills when tax credits were available, and I don't believe any of them ever got a dime back other than the tax credits. Whenever I drive by a place that has them, like Altamont Pass, I notice that more of them seem to be stopped than working.

 

But I guess that's typical of emerging technologies. I remember when the original IBM PC came out. I went to the managing partner of our CPA office, and asked for a budget to get one and some software. He said, "Give me a plan as to how you're going to use it and then I'll give you a budget." I said, "My plan is to figure out what it does and then I'll tell you how I'm going to use it." He didn't like my plan, so we had a stand-off about that for about a year until some other offices starting using them, and then he finally relented.

[Marty Hill]

Dave, funny I was on the inside and we had no clue as to what they were going to be used for or how many we would sell.

[WestTX RT]

As a board member of the Wolfforth EDC, I attended the AWEA conference in Houston in early June. It was an intersting trade show with over 700 exhibitors. There were a lot of folks there with some experience in the industry (especially the Europeans I talked to), but over 1/2 that were there were just trying to figure out what was going on. Most I talked to that seemed to know what's going on say we are in the "Model T" stage of technology for windmills, and if you look at most of what's out there, they are very simple in design.

 

We live in a part of West Texas that averages 9 meters per second most of the year, but there's no transmission available. Most of the windmill developments you guys have ridden through down around Sweetwater actually have lower wind speeds than further up around Lubbock and especially Amarillo, but they have transmission along the Interstate. We'll have transmission at some point, because the Dallas/Ft. Worth Metroplex, Houston, and Austin want the power. The interesting part of this is that most of the higher wind average area is in the SPP and those areas are in ERCOT. There will be some interesting politics involved in the whole process.

 

[wolcott]

... Also, I read an article where T.Boone Pickens said he would NOT have wind turbines on his property b/c they were "ugly". What a hypocrite!

 

How's that hypocritical? He's never claimed they're pretty. He says they're good energy producers, and will generate good revenue for those who have them on their land - and even that they're a more reliable income than oil (and doesn't say but it should be obvious that they're less messy, noisy, and ugly than oil rigs.) But "pretty" ain't on the list he's selling.

 

Myself - I think they're kinda cool... If I had the space (and wind conditions) to put one up, I'd be happily selling juice to the electric company!

 

I think he's a hypocrite b/c he's promoting windmills & wind power but his not well known view that he thinks they are ugly and he refuses to put them on his land, speaks volumes. This is a billionaire, he has many acres of land with the ability to purchase many more, so why no windmills? With his busy schedule,

he doesn't even have time to look at his land except by jet or helicopter. If you or I had only 10 sq. miles of land, and did NOT want windmills on that small piece of land, i would understand. He is just trying to talk up natural gas for cars and windmills on everybody's property except his. Let him take the first step and show us how it's done by putting up a windfarm of a 1,000 acres. In places like Texas, you can have windmills, watermills, oil pumps, and cattle all in the same acreage, I would think.

[velomoto]

... Also, I read an article where T.Boone Pickens said he would NOT have wind turbines on his property b/c they were "ugly". What a hypocrite!

 

How's that hypocritical? He's never claimed they're pretty. He says they're good energy producers, and will generate good revenue for those who have them on their land - and even that they're a more reliable income than oil (and doesn't say but it should be obvious that they're less messy, noisy, and ugly than oil rigs.) But "pretty" ain't on the list he's selling.

 

Myself - I think they're kinda cool... If I had the space (and wind conditions) to put one up, I'd be happily selling juice to the electric company!

 

I think he's a hypocrite b/c he's promoting windmills & wind power but his not well known view that he thinks they are ugly and he refuses to put them on his land, speaks volumes. This is a billionaire, he has many acres of land with the ability to purchase many more, so why no windmills? With his busy schedule,

he doesn't even have time to look at his land except by jet or helicopter. If you or I had only 10 sq. miles of land, and did NOT want windmills on that small piece of land, i would understand. He is just trying to talk up natural gas for cars and windmills on everybody's property except his. Let him take the first step and show us how it's done by putting up a windfarm of a 1,000 acres. In places like Texas, you can have windmills, watermills, oil pumps, and cattle all in the same acreage, I would think.

So let me get this right Pickens is a hypocrite because he doesn't want windmills on his property??? Kinda like how Pickens doesn't have an oil refinery on his property?

 

Sorry but this is a business and Pickens would be a fool to locate the windmills to silence his critics. Economics will drive where windmills are located - much like how economics will drive the locations of future nuclear power plants (think: NIMBY - Not In My BackYard).

 

Personally I appreciate the appearance of the windmills - but the nearest ones are about 40 miles from my home so I have to ride a good distance to enjoy them.

 

Regarding the windmills on Altamont Pass in CA, I remember seeing those go up in the early 80's and was impressed with the variety of designs: small high speed prop's, large slow moving prop's, other odd designs. The windmills which have recently been built around Cheyenne Wyoming seem to be running when ever I go by. Only on days with little wind do there seem to be idle units. I completely agree that, from an engineering perspective, we are just beginning to learn how to produce power from wind.

 

Love 'em or hate 'em, one thing is for certain the windmills are clearly visible for a loooong distance. I don't expect the controversy of their appearance will go away any time soon as I expect wind farms will continue to sprout.

[Matts_12GS]

T. Boone wants us to drill up all the oil, burn it in windmill factories so that the global warming will kick in and then there'll be more wind available to make those big windmills actually worth the fuss.