0 mph advice needed

[prhkgh]

OK, hope this is the right topic for my question. Although the topic is "ride well",I have a need for "stand well" advice. Just got a 2000 R1100RT, biggest bike by far I've ever ridden. (41 years riding experience from Honda 50 and up...15K miles on a Sportster, 1500 miles on a URAL (til the engine melted in traffic on a 105 degree day).

 

Felt it was time to get a BMW,bikes I've lusted after since early 70's. Surprised how similar the riding position and shifting is to the old URAL...but really nice to have brakes instead of stopping being a nice notion.

 

My problem: Love the bike once I'm moving. Hate the bike standing still, or worse, trying to get it up on the center stand. (Never used a center stand before.)

 

When I have it on the side stand and straighten it up to lift/rock it onto the center stand, I have trouble telling when the bike is straight up and down. Seems the distance from "Got the bike under control" to "OMG OMG it's gonna go over!" is VERY short. I do put the center stand down and step on it as I pull back on the handlebars with my left hand and lift up and back on the lift handle with my right...

 

Do I just have to suck it up, take care, and trust that it will become second nature? I really don't want to be one of those guys who lists the bike with wording like "this bike deserves someone who can appreciate it" or "scratches from a 0mph dump..."

 

Am I doing something wrong? My one attempt to rock it onto the center stand while astride the bike felt even "wronger". So, is there "a trick"?

 

Felt "one with the bike" with all my other rides, but have never come so close to losing it on a regular basis like I've felt in the past 2 days! (er, I'm 5'11" and 250 lb, so I don't think it's because I'm too small for the bike...) It took me a while to get used to the Sportster as that was the 1st 'heavy' (relatively) bike I ever rode...everything up til then could be manhandled at low speeds. I >assume< I'll "get it" with practice, but would like to cut down on the training time...and don't have a nice sidecar/outrigger like I did with the URAL.

 

Advice?

 

Thanks,

Paul H

2000 R1100-RT (36 hours, 150 miles)

1998 HD Sportster 883 (5 years, 20,000 miles)

1995 Ural Sportsman (w/sidecar, 2WD, 1500 miles before meltdown)

1973 Suzuki 185TS

various little Hondas, Hodaka, etc.

 

[Boffin]

Hi and welcome to the board

 

The trick in getting these bikes onto the centre stand is not to lift them, you roll them back onto the stand. From your description all you need to change is to pull back on the handle with your right hand rather than up.

 

When getting the bike up off of the side stand ready for the centre stand, push the centre stand down as you raise the bike off of the side-stand. That way you will feel when both feet of the centre stand are on the ground and you will know the bike is centred.

 

Now for the cliché - in time it will all feel perfectly natural.

 

Andy

[motorman587]

What he said. Make sure that both feet of the center stand are touching before attemping to put it on the center stand. The foot closes to you can feel as you push down on the center stand with your foot. Then you have to push the motorcycle away from you to feel the other foot touch the ground. Then you step down on the center stand.

[Horse]

What he said. Make sure that both feet of the center stand are touching before attemping to put it on the center stand. The foot closes to you can feel as you push down on the center stand with your foot. Then you have to push the motorcycle away from you to feel the other foot touch the ground. Then you step down on the center stand.

 

Couple of things to clarify this ^

 

When the mainstand feet are on the ground, if you gently 'rock' the bike from [its] side to side, you should feel it to be more stable - much more - when both feet are down, like a milkmaid's three-legged milking stool.

 

Next, press firmly down with your foot on the stand . . . and let go with both hands (take your fingers just off the left bar, and see if you're right hand is 'doing much' with the handle) - get someone to stand on the bike's right if you can, just so you feel brave. Like the milking stool, the bike should just stay there, held by your foot pressure.

 

Now, regain grip on the bar and handle.

 

All you do with the bar is to keep the wheel straight, no more, no 'lifting'.

 

Press down with your right foot, then, simultaneously, tug gently on the handle and 'hop' on to the main stand foot - lift your left foot off the ground. Keep your back straight, let your weight do the work. If it feels like a 'lift', then lower it down, rethink, and re-do.

 

Taking it off the stand, either:

- Stand alongside, give the bike a 'tug' with the handle, take half a pace left as it rolls so you stay alongside

 

- If you have longer legs, sit astride and 'bump' it off the stand - but this will wear the stand & bearings more quickly

 

Be wary of pushing on both bars as although this gives brake control (do you have a servo?) if it falls 'away' you'll find it difficult to pull it back.

 

Before you put it on the mainstand, think about how level the surface is - will it tend to roll away?

[Marek]

what John said - make sure that you feel both side of the center stand touch the ground. I think it's more of a step hard with your right foot and pull with your right hand. The step hard it's the key.

 

Mark

[Knifemaker]

Unless you are servicing the bike why even worry about the center stand? My bikes have lived life well without constant centerstand use...

[Quinn]

I don't use the centerstand unless I'm really, really sure that the surface is level; i.e. my basement floor or at gas pumps.

 

I make sure my foot is well under the bike and my arch is centered on the centerstand lever. I lift the bike up to level using my knee to push and my hands to pull if I go too far. That way I get much finer control getting the centerstand balanced with less worry about it falling. Rest of the advise--concentrate more on standing on the centerstand and less about pulling up on the bike.

 

 

[prhkgh]

Thanks all for the advice...sounds like, to quote Maxwell Smart, "I missed it by THAT much." Looking forward to modifying my stand-up routine starting when I get to work today (on my 1st commute using it, Yippee!)

 

As to why put it on the stand: I had heard that leaving it on its side stand for any significant length of time could cause oil to pool in the downhill cylinder, and (I guess only if rings are about shot anyway) lead to smoking when starting, etc.

 

I'm a bit cautious about taking care with this boxer engine due to my poor (although AFAIK not unusual) experience with my URAL...which I loved to putt around on, but ruined the engine when stuck in stop and go behind a high school getting out, on a 105 degree Northern CA summer day. (Humm, supposed to be 105 today too...but I'm riding anyway.)

 

Which brings me to questions about adding RTP cooling fan...but I'll take that to the oilhead threads.

 

Thanks again, I'll repost with how it works out.

 

Paul H.

[tallman]

Also, don't "putt" around.

The Boxer likes to live in mid/higher revs.

Try to avoid short shifting, keep it in the gear that gives you immediate response should you need it, particularly in town.

 

Keeping it on the centerstand is the TAO of the Boxer.

It shows you are man enough to ride it.

 

It is technique, not effort, that works.

Best wishes.

[Boffin]

The "oil pooling in the lower cylinder" is an old-wives tale. Many boxers are shipped without a centre stand and they do not have an issue with smoky starts. (K-bikes however...)

 

Andy

[tallman]

Andy,

No center stand, but upright in crate.

It is an older bike tale as it was very common, both Boxer and K bikes.

Some still have issues w/that, but as you said, it is an older issue.

[Rotor]

I found that the following works well for me:

Leave the bike in gear. Stand beside it and roll the bike forward until it has taken up the driveline slack and stops. Then, use the other techniques provided here by others to lift it to the center-stand.

The rear tire needs to be able to roll backward slightly when it is being put on the center-stand and this technique helps that. Otherwise, you're fighting the friction of the rear tire while trying to pull the bike up and back.

[Mister Tee]

I also ride in 105 degree California heat too, and find that my 1200RT manages heat as well, if not better, than my water-cooled gsxr 750. I had the same concern on cooling as well when I first got the bike, but I have yet to experience an unmanageable engine temperature sitting at a long traffic light even on triple digit days. Then again, I rarely find myself at a complete stop other than right at an intersection.

[knight88]

Have a RTP with the fan, even in 100 deg heat, stuck in traffic never had the fan come on once (It does work checked the circuit) the temp bars have not gone even close to the top.

[Couchrocket]

All very good advice here.

 

I'll just emphasize two things:

 

You don't "Lift" the bike.... you put weight on the center stand arm w/ your body weight.

 

And, at 250 lbs. the bike should pop up on the stand faster than you can imagine. DAMHIKT...

 

A last thought (some will violently disagree w/ me on this) -- leave the side stand deployed as you do this. In the even that you ever feel like you're losing control of the bike, you can gently pull it toward you and lower it down on the side stand while guiding it slightly backwards (to keep the side stand from folding up) rather than either letting it go "away from you" and falling over, or doing the Hulk Hogan bike wrestling championship trying not to drop it on yourself.

 

Another "last thought".... as I begin to bring the bike to vertical, my right foot is already on the center stand arm, lowering it to touch the ground.... that makes it so much easier to tell when the bike is vertical, because you can feel the "away foot" touch down. As soon as I feel the close foot touch, I start to put some body weight on the center stand arm... and as soon as I feel the "away foot" touch, I just stand on the center stand arm and the bike pops up on the stand w/o so much as a how de do....

[prhkgh]

Thanks all! Much easier to put it on the center stand after reading all the advice. Appreciate the hints about not lugging the engine...will work on that (as I tend to be a short shifter if not going for quick acceleration.)

 

I also like the idea of keeping the side stand down 'just in case', I'd rather risk pretzeling the side stand than myself.

 

Now about to ride home. Grins.

 

Paul H.

[DavidEBSmith]

A last thought (some will violently disagree w/ me on this) -- leave the side stand deployed as you do this.

 

Yup. But I strongly suggest raising the side stand before you take the bike off the center stand. If the bike tilts a bit to the left as it comes down, it can hit the sidestand and bounce away from you to the right and crash up against the gas pump. Or so I imagine.

[russell_bynum]

A last thought (some will violently disagree w/ me on this) -- leave the side stand deployed as you do this.

 

Yup. But I strongly suggest raising the side stand before you take the bike off the center stand. If the bike tilts a bit to the left as it comes down, it can hit the sidestand and bounce away from you to the right and crash up against the gas pump. Or so I imagine.

 

Yup.

 

The last step of putting the bike on the centerstand is retracting the sidestand.

 

 

[jjg3]

But I strongly suggest raising the side stand before you take the bike off the center stand. If the bike tilts a bit to the left as it comes down, it can hit the sidestand and bounce away from you to the right and crash up against the gas pump. Or so I imagine.

 

+1... With a full tank and my... or someone's... weight on the bike, rolling off the centerstand compressed the suspension enough to have the sidestand hit and almost toss the bike over on the right... of course it didn't happen to me... I just imagine it would go like that...

[EddyQ]

Lots of good advice here.

 

I almost had a bike topple due to the centerstand use in the hot weather. Those stands sink in hot pavement really quickly with 500 pounds on the two tiny square inch of contact. I found my bike with both tires on the pavement and with a slight tilt.

 

For hot pavement, I never use a center stand and use a thick 3-4" square plastic piece under the sidestand.

[Horse]

A last thought (some will violently disagree w/ me on this) -- leave the side stand deployed as you do this.

 

Yup. But I strongly suggest raising the side stand before you take the bike off the center stand. If the bike tilts a bit to the left as it comes down, it can hit the sidestand and bounce away from you to the right and crash up against the gas pump. Or so I imagine.

 

I never leave the sidestand down when the bike's on the mainstand.

 

But some people do.

 

And if you take an R1100RS off its mainstand when the ss is down, you run the risk of a sidestand on your left foot's toes, and the bike falling away from you while you hop in agony.

 

Don't ask

[Little Joe]

- If you have longer legs, sit astride and 'bump' it off the stand - but this will wear the stand & bearings more quickly

 

I'm 6'4 and always bump the bike off the centerstand while astride it. This wears out my centerstand bearings?

[russell_bynum]

- If you have longer legs, sit astride and 'bump' it off the stand - but this will wear the stand & bearings more quickly

 

I'm 6'4 and always bump the bike off the centerstand while astride it. This wears out my centerstand bearings?

 

I usually just mounted the bike, started it, popped it into gear and rode if off the stand. 70,000 miles on my RT doing that and no issues with centerstand bearings. I did switch to fully synthetic ceterstand bearing grease, though. It costs more, but the piece of mind is worth it.

 

 

 

[Ken H.]

The "oil pooling in the lower cylinder" is an old-wives tale. Many boxers are shipped without a centre stand and they do not have an issue with smoky starts.

Exactly.

 

My opinion, except for doing some service or something where it has to be on the center stand, forget about the thing. I actually took mine off long ago. The bike is stabler parked on the side stand to boot.

[prhkgh]

OK folks, it's 48 hours since I posted my plea for help, and you guys really came through. I think the whole issue could have been avoided had I purchased the bike from a dealer or knowledgable owner who could have demonstrated the right technique...but sadly I was buying the bike from the owner's widow, and she knew nothing about how things worked.

 

I've probably put it on the stand a dozen or 15 times in the past two days, between commute and some side trips. Without the advice given here I know I would still be struggling. But that's not the case, I'm now effortlessly and confidently putting it on the centerstand whenever I want.

 

Here's the combination of all the suggestions that seems to work best for me, but of course YMMV.

 

0. Given that doing this on heat softened blacktop, or a hill, is probably ill-advised...In those cases I'll use the sidestand and possibly with an extra 'plate' (can, wood, etc.) under the foot so it doesn't sink in. Since I've had a Harley for 10 years, in really hot weather, all the "geez it sank and fell over" issues are ones I'm already familiar with and prepared to deal with. BUT, IMHO it appears to me the bike is more stable and secure upright than leaned over, so if I'm parking for more than a quick run into a store, on flat concrete, I will lean toward using the centerstand.

 

1. Bike turned off, handlebars unlocked, in 1st gear, me standing to its left holding both handlebars, with the bike slightly canted toward me (taking care to not pass the easy to balance point.)

2. Reach up with right foot and press down on centerstand until the left foot of the centerstand touchs down. Put a fair amount of pressure (20lb? 40lb?) on the right foot.

3. Using handlebars raise bike to vertical, increasing pressure on right foot.

4. As bike reaches or approaches vertical, move right hand to rear lift handle.

5. When I feel right centerstand foot hit the ground, step down HARD (full weight) on right foot/centerstand and lift (some, not a lot) on lift handle. Bike pops up onto the centerstand just like described, with absolutely NO pulling back on the handlebars needed or wanted.

6. lock the forks, leave it in 1st gear, make sure the sidestand is up.

 

To get it off the stand, what is most comfortable to me, is to sit on the bike and bump it forward off the stand, let it settle, reach down with left foot and raise centerstand fully.

 

Thanks all for the help!

 

Paul H.

[russell_bynum]

Nice. The next step is learning how to deploy the centerstand while you're still sitting on the bike.

[Couchrocket]

But I strongly suggest raising the side stand before you take the bike off the center stand. If the bike tilts a bit to the left as it comes down, it can hit the side stand and bounce away from you to the right and crash up against the gas pump. Or so I imagine.

 

+1... With a full tank and my... or someone's... weight on the bike, rolling off the center stand compressed the suspension enough to have the side stand hit and almost toss the bike over on the right... of course it didn't happen to me... I just imagine it would go like that...

 

Just an observation. I can imagine "imagining" that there is a danger of the bike "bouncing off of" the side stand when coming off of the center stand. I routinely used the side stand deployed method on my RT for over 30K miles in all kinds of conditions from lightly loaded to a full touring load and never had it even get close to touching the side stand when coming off of the center stand. On the other hand, there have been a few times when I was glad it was deployed for the reason stated in my original post. It is probably important to note that I never rode the bike off the center stand -- that always seemed like "bike abuse" to me for some reason, nor did I spin my bike around while on the center stand -- for the same reason. Either of those, and particularly the former, would seem better w/ the side stand "up" and not deployed.

 

I think perhaps the most important thing is to have a routine that works "for you" that you follow consistently so that how the bike behaves going up and down, etc. is predictable.

 

And, Paul... glad to hear the great advice you've received from the gang here has helped!

 

You should see the looks I get when I put my HD Road Glide up on its centerstand! The "Hog Brethren" anywhere near me look away in shame as though I've committed some kind of mortal sin. Especially when I've ridden up with my headlight modualtor going, and my tank bag on the tank....

 

 

[russell_bynum]

But I strongly suggest raising the side stand before you take the bike off the center stand. If the bike tilts a bit to the left as it comes down, it can hit the side stand and bounce away from you to the right and crash up against the gas pump. Or so I imagine.

 

+1... With a full tank and my... or someone's... weight on the bike, rolling off the center stand compressed the suspension enough to have the side stand hit and almost toss the bike over on the right... of course it didn't happen to me... I just imagine it would go like that...

 

Just an observation. I can imagine "imagining" that there is a danger of the bike "bouncing off of" the side stand when coming off of the center stand. I routinely used the side stand deployed method on my RT for over 30K miles in all kinds of conditions from lightly loaded to a full touring load and never had it even get close to touching the side stand when coming off of the center stand. On the other hand, there have been a few times when I was glad it was deployed for the reason stated in my original post. It is probably important to note that I never rode the bike off the center stand -- that always seemed like "bike abuse" to me for some reason, nor did I spin my bike around while on the center stand -- for the same reason. Either of those, and particularly the former, would seem better w/ the side stand "up" and not deployed.

 

I think perhaps the most important thing is to have a routine that works "for you" that you follow consistently so that how the bike behaves going up and down, etc. is predictable.

 

And, Paul... glad to hear the great advice you've received from the gang here has helped!

 

 

Hey, who let the Harley guy on here?

 

I definitely experienced the sidestand bounce trick. Once it came down on my foot...let me tell you...getting your foot smashed with a sidestand and trying to hop around on one foot while cussing and not dropping your 600lbs motorcycle is no easy feet.

 

The other time it happened, I had the old stock shocks on the bike and we were fully loaded with luggage. Even then it shouldn't have been a problem, but I was in a hurry so I just let it drop rather than using the front brake to ease it down. It bounced hard enough to touch the sidestand, and when it rebounded it just about pulled me over on top of it.

 

So...I can attest to the fact that the sidestand bounce thing is real.

 

 

As for bike abuse...I never really saw any problem with riding off the stand. Other than the fact that you generally come down harder (which puts a load on the suspension, not really on the stand), I don't see how it's any different than pushing the bike off the stand manually. I never really liked the "Spin it around on the centerstand" bit...though I spin my other bikes around on the sidestands, so I can't claim base that opinion on any logic or even consistent anti-logic.

 

 

[tallman]

Paul

Ref. #2

No need to put a lot of pressure on centerstand tang.

If you do, when you go to raise to vertical you may not feel the grounding and push too far right.

That is a no go recovery situation.

Sounds like you've got it right, but just a thought as I've seen folks put too much on before centering and then tip right.

 

Riding off a stock centerstand can lead to damage. I said "can", not will. Seen it too.

If you're tall enough to sit/rock it off w/out weighting the saddle much or at all, OK.

If not, over time, can be an issue. Rare, but happens.

 

Hot asphalt side stand "base" can bew done w/a plastic (insert choice) such as those given out by MSF or electrical plate tied to a wire. Make the length equal to the distance from a mirror to the ground under the sidestand. Loop it around mirror, drop it, set side stand on it.

When you get ready to leave, just sit on bike, center, retrieve plastic and stow, kick up stand, big wheelie out of parking lot.

Best wishes.

[Horse]

- If you have longer legs, sit astride and 'bump' it off the stand - but this will wear the stand & bearings more quickly

 

I'm 6'4 and always bump the bike off the centerstand while astride it. This wears out my centerstand bearings?

 

Legs that long, makes you a smart arse, eh?

[rdsmith3]

- If you have longer legs, sit astride and 'bump' it off the stand - but this will wear the stand & bearings more quickly

 

I'm 6'4 and always bump the bike off the centerstand while astride it. This wears out my centerstand bearings?

 

Same here. Actually, it is more of a push forward, off the center stand.

[russell_bynum]

Riding off a stock centerstand can lead to damage. I said "can", not will. Seen it too.

If you're tall enough to sit/rock it off w/out weighting the saddle much or at all, OK.

If not, over time, can be an issue. Rare, but happens.

 

Obviously you've got far more experience in this area than I do, so I'm not going to dispute that you've seen centerstand damage that you attribute to people riding the bike off the stand. But...I'm having trouble understanding why this would be a bad thing.

 

Is it the extra weight of the rider on the bike? If so, then What's the max load that you should have on the bike while it's on the centerstand? I've seen some bikes really heavily loaded with a couple of weeks worth of gear, clothes, camping equipement, etc. That's not as heavy as I am, but it certainly ain't light. If that's the case, then is it bad to even sit on the bike with it on the centerstand?

 

What is it specifically about riding the bike off the stand or bumping it forward off the stand while sitting on the bike that's so different than standing next to the bike to rock it forward off the stand?

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

What is it specifically about riding the bike off the stand or bumping it forward off the stand while sitting on the bike that's so different than standing next to the bike to rock it forward off the stand?

 

This issue was discussed here about a month ago, where there was concern about damage to the driveline and/or the centerstand due to powering the bike off of the c-stand with the engine while seated on the bike.

 

Quoting my own post in that thread:

The centerstand doesn't know whether the rear wheel is pushing the bike forward, or the rider. If the extra 200 pounds of rider is the concern (on top of a 620-pound bike, plus any luggage), then we would expect similar wear from someone who gets on the bike to push it off with his feet (or by rocking it forward while seated). I'd bet the wear on the top end of the stand (on the bike you bought) had more to do with inadequate lubrication; it needs to be disassembled and re-greased every now and then.

 

 

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

Nice. The next step is learning how to deploy the centerstand while you're still sitting on the bike.

 

That has actually come in handy from time to time. During the summer months I park my car outside, and my bike owns half the garage. When bad-ass storms show up with threats of hail, sometimes I move the car into the garage, and that requires getting the bike out of the way. Rather than shuffling stuff out of the way and trying to wiggle the bike into a tiny niche in the side of the garage, I'll pull the sidecases off, get on the bike and park it a couple of inches from the right side of my wife's car. No room to stand next to the bike, so being able to get it up on the stand while still astride it is indeed useful here.

[Couchrocket]

I definitely experienced the sidestand bounce trick. Once it came down on my foot...let me tell you...getting your foot smashed with a sidestand and trying to hop around on one foot while cussing and not dropping your 600lbs motorcycle is no easy feet.

 

Ouch! Agony of de-feat...

 

And, my HD is an "LT" (Luddite Tourer) after all... so I'm stayin'...

[russell_bynum]

Nice. The next step is learning how to deploy the centerstand while you're still sitting on the bike.

 

That has actually come in handy from time to time. During the summer months I park my car outside, and my bike owns half the garage. When bad-ass storms show up with threats of hail, sometimes I move the car into the garage, and that requires getting the bike out of the way. Rather than shuffling stuff out of the way and trying to wiggle the bike into a tiny niche in the side of the garage, I'll pull the sidecases off, get on the bike and park it a couple of inches from the right side of my wife's car. No room to stand next to the bike, so being able to get it up on the stand while still astride it is indeed useful here.

 

I use it for exactly the same purpose with Lisa's bike. It goes on the left side of the 1-car bay in the garage. Right now, I want the Tuono, the DRZ, and the RS to be easily accessible, so they're all side-by-side. The Tuono goes straight in and into the Baxley chock. Then I dismount and pop it up onto the Pit Bull rear stand. The Drz goes in the middle on its sidestand. The RS goes on the right side up agaist the wall. There's stuff stored on the wall over there so there's no room to dismount on the left to deploy the stand. So...I just ride straight in, let the left bag just brush the weatherstrip on the edge of the garage door frame, stop when my left ear is even with the center of the bottom bracket on my bicycle (hanging on the wall), then pop the bike up onto the centerstand and dismount.

[90%angel]

So...I just ride straight in, let the left bag just brush the weatherstrip on the edge of the garage door frame, stop when my left ear is even with the center of the bottom bracket on my bicycle (hanging on the wall), then pop the bike up onto the centerstand and dismount.

 

And it's all quite comical when he gets it wrong.

 

(JK, I've never actually seen that, but I can imagine the bike carnage if he did screw it up...we have 6 motorcycles and 3 bicycles in that bay...)

[Horse]

Riding off a stock centerstand can lead to damage. I said "can", not will. Seen it too.

If you're tall enough to sit/rock it off w/out weighting the saddle much or at all, OK.

If not, over time, can be an issue. Rare, but happens.

 

Obviously you've got far more experience in this area than I do, so I'm not going to dispute that you've seen centerstand damage that you attribute to people riding the bike off the stand. But...I'm having trouble understanding why this would be a bad thing.

 

Is it the extra weight of the rider on the bike? If so, then What's the max load that you should have on the bike while it's on the centerstand? I've seen some bikes really heavily loaded with a couple of weeks worth of gear, clothes, camping equipement, etc. That's not as heavy as I am, but it certainly ain't light. If that's the case, then is it bad to even sit on the bike with it on the centerstand?

 

Without this getting all out of proportion, a dealer once said to be "People use their stands every day, they just need to accept that the stand will wear out and need replacing, it isn't a design fault." [or words to effect of]

 

Mind you, I part-ex'd an old K100RT, which he used as a loaner for a couple of weeks. The mainstand collapsed through wear and rust on the inside (it was one of the earlier 'curved' ones) in that time . . . So I said to him: "People use their stands every day, they just need to accept . . . "

 

Nah, I didn't really