Pumping Gas

[Knifemaker]

Info that was passed on to me do not know if it is accurate but maybe worth a try....

 

 

TIPS ON PUMPING GAS

 

I don’t know what you guys are paying for gasoline.... but here in California we are paying up to $3.75 to $4.10 per gallon. My line of work is in petroleum for about 31 years now, so here are some tricks to get more of your money's worth for every gallon:

 

Here at the Kinder Morgan Pipeline where I work in San Jose, CA we deliver about 4 million gallons in a 24-hour period thru the pipeline... One day is diesel the next day is jet fuel, and gasoline, regular and premium grades. We have 34-storage tanks here with a total capacity of16, 800,000 gallons.

 

Only buy or fill up your car or truck in the early morning when the ground temperature is still cold. Remember that all service stations have their storage tanks buried below ground. The colder the ground the more dense the gasoline, when it gets warmer gasoline expands, so buying in the afternoon or in the evening....your gallon is not exactly a gallon. In the petroleum business, the specific gravity and the temperature of the gasoline, diesel and jet fuel, ethanol and other petroleum products plays an important role. < /B>

 

A 1-degree rise in temperature is a big deal for this business. But the service stations do not have temperature compensation at the pumps.

 

When you’re filling up do not squeeze the trigger of the e nozzle to a fast mode. If you look you will see that the trigger has three (3) stages: low, middle, and high. You should be pumping on low mode, thereby minimizing the vapors that are created while you are pumping. All hoses at the pump have a vapor return. If you are pumping on the fast rate, some of the liquid that goes to your tank becomes vapor. Those vapors are being sucked up and back into the underground storage tank so you're getting less worth for your money.

 

One of the most important tips is to fill up when your gas tank is HALFFULL. The reason for this is the more gas you have in your tank the less air occupying its empty space. Gasoline evaporates faster than you can imagine. Gasoline storage tanks have an internal floating roof. This roof serves as zero clearance between the gas and the atmosphere, so it minimizes the evaporation. Unlike service stations, here where I work, every truck that we load is temperature compensated so that every gallon is actually the exact amount.

 

Another reminder, if there is a gasoline truck pumping into the storage tanks when you stop to buy gas, DO NOT fill up; most likely the gasoline is being stirred up as the gas is being delivered, and you might pick up some of the dirt that normally settles on the bottom.

 

 

[smiller]

 

I kind of doubt that the amount of vapor in your tank (or the amount returned by the collection system) contributes very much one way or the other (at least to an individual vehicle), but I'll let Mitch address that as he's a lot better at math than I. And as to tanker trucks stiring anything up... gas station pumps have no filters? etc. Sounds like mostly BS to me.

 

we deliver about 4 million gallons in a 24-hour period thru the pipeline...

Surely no one would notice if he siphoned just a little bit off for me?

 

[Bob Palin]

Here are the numbers on gas expansion with temperature:

 

http://www.nh.gov/agric/news/documents/Sept2007.pdf

[ESokoloff]

Sounds like mostly BS to me.

 

 

snopes is not sure.

 

My understanding of ground temperature is that at a certain depth (of not many feet) ground temperature is a constant (perhaps 58º F) world wide regardless of outside ambient.

[Mike]

Here are the numbers on gas expansion with temperature:

 

http://www.nh.gov/agric/news/documents/Sept2007.pdf

 

Interesting stuff. It would be my guess--as suggested by the article you link to--that there is virtually no difference in ground temperature over a 24-hour period. So, the statement in the quote provided by Bill, suggesting that buying gasoline early in the morning would result more gas actually being delivered, seems a bit questionable.

 

Most of this makes sense, but it seems clear that the greatest ability to influence how much fuel you consume arises out of your choice in vehicles and your driving style.

[Knifemaker]

In a perfect world we would be getting what we are paying for...I read this in a slightly different light...I believe the person who sent me this article is letting us know that (morning) maybe the best time to purchase fuel as the fuel transfer process maybe cooler than at other times of the day.

 

If the fuel is "hot" when pumped... given the fact that service station pumps are not temperature compensated it seems the loss in consumer dollars (gain to the retailers) over a given week is substantial based on the thousands of gallons pumped... considering the wholesaler is using a compensated system upon delivery to the retailer.

[velomoto]

The temperature change to the underground gas tanks just seems to be too small to measure. I would expect much greater changes in the electro/mechanical operation of the fuel pumps - but since I have no knowledge of how they are built nor how they compensate for temperature change. After all, these things are supposed to be accurate when pumping at -40 degrees in Alaska or +115 degrees in Arizona.

 

At the peak temperature of the day, the fuel in ones gas tank will certainly evaporate at a higher rate so this would be a sound reason for filling up in the morning/evening...

 

The "ideal" speed to fill one's fuel tank OTOH is not necessarily simple. The slower one pumps the longer the tank lid is open and losing vapor. The faster one pumps the greater the turbulence of the fuel going into, and moving around inside the tank which will increase evaporation. BUT I would also expect that gas is like water in that as the concentration of fuel in the air increases the rate of evaporation decreases. Perhaps on hot days it's better to get filled quickly but on cool days a looong slow fill is better?

 

Bottom line: if you want to save fuel, then burn less!

[leikam]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but these tips sound like they're aimed at saving fractional percentages of fuel. That could very well be worthwhile if you're moving millions gallons of gas per day. But for my car's 15 gallon tank, how much would I save? 1.5 gallons? 0.15? 0.015?

 

But mostly I just want to know where he's finding gas for $3.75.

[russell_bynum]

But mostly I just want to know where he's finding gas for $3.75.

 

It's at the corner of Beach Blvd and 2007.

[tallman]

Our state government has inspectors who go and pump gas.

They measure the quantity dispensed with a gradient.

They don't go just early in the morning.

I call, BS.

[Bob Palin]

Our state government has inspectors who go and pump gas.

They measure the quantity dispensed with a gradient.

They don't go just early in the morning.

I call, BS.

So you're saying the New Hampshire Division of Weights and Measures is mistaken? I bet the Florida inspectors make adjustments to normalize the delivery volume to 60F.

[smiller]

So you're saying the New Hampshire Division of Weights and Measures is mistaken? I bet the Florida inspectors make adjustments to normalize the delivery volume to 60F.

I bet they do too, probably a good idea when you're dispensing 15,000 gallons.

 

But when you're dispensing 15 gallons a 20 degree difference means about 15cc, or 0.008 gallon. Whoopee.

[tallman]

In our neck of the woods the subterranean temperature at 3 feet is about 58 degrees.

Remains fairly constant.

A variation that small (s. miller) would be w/in tolerable limits.

The inspectors goal is to protect the consumer and If I pay for 13.539 gallons, and really got 13.538999999998, I can live with that.

There's more concern in my view over the amount of regular still in the system when I pump high test.

We haven't beaten this horse in a while, have we.

 

Besides, those New Hampshireites and their "Live Free of Die" attitude are just not quite right. :grin:

 

 

 

[motoguy128]

The temperature difference is fractions of a %. I'd guess it's no more than the error in the flow meter used to measure the fuel pumped.

 

Every pump I've seen has a filter on the hose. I don't think the particulate being stirred in the bottom of the tanks would be an issue.

[rocks]

Besides, those New Hampshireites and their "Live Free of Die" attitude are just not quite right.

 

 

HEEEEEYYYY

[StuGotz]

This deserves a new forum:

 

Riders discuss unsubstantiated BS.

 

Sorry, I'm not drinking the Kool-Aid.

And gas here in San Jose is $4.89 for premium, Dad.

 

MB>

[ghaverkamp]

This deserves a new forum:

 

Riders discuss unsubstantiated BS.

 

That's what the "Forums" link in the breadcrumbs is all about, giving you a link to a list of places for riders to discuss unsubstantiated BS.

[Lawman]

Why do I keep getting images of someone who just received a fresh haircut in my mind?????

[Whip]

Why do I keep getting images of someone who just received a fresh haircut in my mind?????

 

[DaveTheAffable]

And gas here in San Jose is $4.89 for premium, Dad.

 

MB>

 

I paid $4.96 9/10 today in East Los Angeles for premium.

 

I haven't stopped buying premium gas for my BMW, but I did stop buying "premium" (mochas, lattes, etc) coffee drinks at $3-$5 a cup. I've only bought 'drip' coffee when I'm out for the last month. That's prolly saved $50. YMMV

[notacop]

Costco membership pumps advertise that they change filters regularly to maintain a fast fuel flow. Most in ground tanks are 4-6 feet below grade and would enjoy the constant temps that affords. A constant 58 degrees enables us to not worry about the little difference the outside air temps make when filling our 4 to 6 gallon tanks our bikes have.

Filling it and parking in a 100 degree garage may make your fuel system weep a bit of fuel.

[Francois_Dumas]

Ya'll excuse me, bein' ferriner and all, but these here 'discussions' are increasingly making me/us chuckle over here....

 

.... another few months and more raising of oil prices and I'm sure ya'll 'over there' will start telling US 'over here' that we should save fuel !!!

 

Hey, you know me !

[Whip]

Ya'll excuse me, bein' ferriner and all, but these here 'discussions' are increasingly making me/us chuckle over here....

 

.... another few months and more raising of oil prices and I'm sure ya'll 'over there' will start telling US 'over here' that we should save fuel !!!

 

Hey, you know me !

 

 

Not me.....

 

 

 

 

[Lawman]

Ya'll excuse me, bein' ferriner and all, but these here 'discussions' are increasingly making me/us chuckle over here....

 

.... another few months and more raising of oil prices and I'm sure ya'll 'over there' will start telling US 'over here' that we should save fuel !!!

 

Hey, you know me !

 

Francois,

Save if it makes you feel better..Don't you know us Mericans don't save nuthin...cept b.s....

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

Only buy or fill up your car or truck in the early morning when the ground temperature is still cold.

 

As has been stated, over a 24-hour period, ground temperature is pretty constant when you get down more than a foot or so below the surface.

 

...Which might not actually matter. If I'm reading the rules right (and gasoline is a "hazardous substance"), then any underground gasoline storage tank installed in the past 20 years has to utilize "secondary containment." Basically the storage tank is inside an excavated pit, or the tank itself is double-walled, meaning it's got an insulating air gap between it and the surrounding earth. Such a large tank (5K, 10K gallons?) has a lot of mass and a favorable surface-area-to-volume ratio, and if the station receives fuel deliveries several times a week from tanker trucks that have covered maybe 30-40 miles since leaving a petroleum distribution center, then the temperature in that tank could be closer to ambient air temperature than ambient earth temperature.

 

Either way, unless someone presents actual fuel measurements at the dispenser, I'm inclined to think time of day at which fuel is dispensed really doesn't matter.

 

If you are pumping on the fast rate, some of the liquid that goes to your tank becomes vapor. Those vapors are being sucked up and back into the underground storage tank so you're getting less worth for your money.

 

Agitation of liquid will not create more vapor unless the air in the immediate vicinity is not yet completely saturated with vapor. When filling your tank, the air going in the opposite direction, coming out of your fuel tank (being displaced by liquid gasoline) is indeed saturated with gasoline vapors; since the liquid gasoline you're dispensing is surrounded by that saturated air, you can agitate it as much as you want (i.e. dispense it as fast as you want), you're not going to create any more vapor.

 

One of the most important tips is to fill up when your gas tank is HALFFULL. The reason for this is the more gas you have in your tank the less air occupying its empty space. Gasoline evaporates faster than you can imagine.

 

It took me a while to make sense of this, but I think what he's suggesting is that if:

 

1. You start with a full tank.

2. drive until nearly empty.

3. the tank has drawn in nearly a tankful of air (to replace the missing fuel).

4. that air presents an opportunity for fuel to evaporate.

5. that vapor-saturated air then gets surrendered to the gas station when you fill up your tank again (with liquid).

 

This makes sense, but trying to escape this process by filling up when the tank is only half-empty doesn't help. No matter, what, when you fill up at the gas station, each gallon of fuel you buy requires you to surrender a gallon of saturated air from the tank; it doesn't matter if the tank was half full, nearly full, or nearly empty when you arrived at the gas station.

 

If it's any consolation, the mass of fuel vapor in a gallon of saturated air is on the order of 1/1000 the mass of a gallon of liquid gasoline. In other words, you buy a $4.00 worth liquid gas, you give up about 0.4 cents' worth of gasoline vapor. And there's nothing you can do about it.

 

[Lawman]

Only buy or fill up If it's any consolation, the mass of fuel vapor in a gallon of saturated air is on the order of 1/1000 the mass of a gallon of liquid gasoline. In other words, you buy a $4.00 worth liquid gas, you give up about 0.4 cents' worth of gasoline vapor. And there's nothing you can do about it.

 

How about a class action lawsuit?

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

Only buy or fill up If it's any consolation, the mass of fuel vapor in a gallon of saturated air is on the order of 1/1000 the mass of a gallon of liquid gasoline. In other words, you buy a $4.00 worth liquid gas, you give up about 0.4 cents' worth of gasoline vapor. And there's nothing you can do about it.

 

How about a class action lawsuit?

 

Against who? for what? Whether the station utilizes a vapor recovery system (that take vapor-laden air coming from your car's tank and brings it back to the underground storage tank) or not, vapor-laden air still comes out of your car's tank; if the station is not utilizing a recover system, then that stuff just wafts out into the atmosphere instead of being ducted back to the UST.

 

IOW, it's not the station's fault that you've got fuel vapor coming out of your car's tank; it's just a fact of life.

[Lawman]

Against the laws of physics..

 

Just another of my feeble attempts at humor Mitch..

[Mike]

Only buy or fill up your car or truck in the early morning when the ground temperature is still cold.

 

As has been stated, over a 24-hour period, ground temperature is pretty constant when you get down more than a foot or so below the surface.

 

...Which might not actually matter. If I'm reading the rules right (and gasoline is a "hazardous substance"), then any underground gasoline storage tank installed in the past 20 years has to utilize "secondary containment." Basically the storage tank is inside an excavated pit, or the tank itself is double-walled, meaning it's got an insulating air gap between it and the surrounding earth. Such a large tank (5K, 10K gallons?) has a lot of mass and a favorable surface-area-to-volume ratio, and if the station receives fuel deliveries several times a week from tanker trucks that have covered maybe 30-40 miles since leaving a petroleum distribution center, then the temperature in that tank could be closer to ambient air temperature than ambient earth temperature.

 

Either way, unless someone presents actual fuel measurements at the dispenser, I'm inclined to think time of day at which fuel is dispensed really doesn't matter.

 

If you are pumping on the fast rate, some of the liquid that goes to your tank becomes vapor. Those vapors are being sucked up and back into the underground storage tank so you're getting less worth for your money.

 

Agitation of liquid will not create more vapor unless the air in the immediate vicinity is not yet completely saturated with vapor. When filling your tank, the air going in the opposite direction, coming out of your fuel tank (being displaced by liquid gasoline) is indeed saturated with gasoline vapors; since the liquid gasoline you're dispensing is surrounded by that saturated air, you can agitate it as much as you want (i.e. dispense it as fast as you want), you're not going to create any more vapor.

 

One of the most important tips is to fill up when your gas tank is HALFFULL. The reason for this is the more gas you have in your tank the less air occupying its empty space. Gasoline evaporates faster than you can imagine.

 

It took me a while to make sense of this, but I think what he's suggesting is that if:

 

1. You start with a full tank.

2. drive until nearly empty.

3. the tank has drawn in nearly a tankful of air (to replace the missing fuel).

4. that air presents an opportunity for fuel to evaporate.

5. that vapor-saturated air then gets surrendered to the gas station when you fill up your tank again (with liquid).

 

This makes sense, but trying to escape this process by filling up when the tank is only half-empty doesn't help. No matter, what, when you fill up at the gas station, each gallon of fuel you buy requires you to surrender a gallon of saturated air from the tank; it doesn't matter if the tank was half full, nearly full, or nearly empty when you arrived at the gas station.

 

If it's any consolation, the mass of fuel vapor in a gallon of saturated air is on the order of 1/1000 the mass of a gallon of liquid gasoline. In other words, you buy a $4.00 worth liquid gas, you give up about 0.4 cents' worth of gasoline vapor. And there's nothing you can do about it.

 

Wow, Mitch. You never cease to amaze me. This is an incredibly cogent and logical dissection of the whole notion, as it was originally presented.

 

So, let me see if I've got this straight: You're saying that this is all a conspiracy by Big Oil, right? :D

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

Against the laws of physics..

 

Just another of my feeble attempts at humor Mitch..

 

Hey, sorry man, didn't mean to sound like I was slamming you. I guess I didn't notice the at first.

 

 

[Bob Palin]

IOW, it's not the station's fault that you've got fuel vapor coming out of your car's tank; it's just a fact of life.

Nonsense, they are applying suction to make sure the fumes don't escape to the atmosphere, at least on those pumps with the hoods. I've seen Boston Legal, we have a case!

[ltljohn]

IOW, it's not the station's fault that you've got fuel vapor coming out of your car's tank; it's just a fact of life.

Nonsense, they are applying suction to make sure the fumes don't escape to the atmosphere, at least on those pumps with the hoods. I've seen Boston Legal, we have a case!

 

Those fumes are ours. They should be put back in our tanks. The gas stations are stealing the fumes I paid for. Sue them all!!!!!!

[tallman]

This has me fuming angry.

[motoguy128]

I was thinking about the fuel flow meter on the pump that measures the volume pumped. If it's like most other measurements in trade, you're already getting some fuel for free because it's illegal to sell less that the amount displayed.

 

For example, the 1 gallon jug of milk you bought, mostly liekly contains around 1.01-1.04 gallons of milk, with only 1 in 1000 being underfilled buy as much as 0.01 gallons.

 

I suspect gasoline is similar. E erything else you buy, you're getting a little more than the lable claim.

[Bob Palin]

E erything else you buy, you're getting a little more than the lable claim.

You need to get down to the Shell station fast - you've lost your V Power!

[Francois_Dumas]

Vaporware !!!!

[Knifemaker]

Thirty Five messages later we are now finding the humor of it all.....