If It's Not One Thing It's Another....What's Next?

[Lets_Play_Two]

"The 15-year-old schoolgirl was found dead in an elevator at a south London apartment building this week, the 16th teenager slain in Britain's capital this year. Most, like Dawit, were stabbed to death — and most of their killers were other young people.

 

The deaths have sparked fears of a knife crime "epidemic" among Britain's young, and spurred the government to announce tougher penalties for teens caught carrying a blade.

 

"Carrying a knife is completely unacceptable," Prime Minister Gordon Brown said Thursday announcing an end to Britain's system of issuing warnings to some teenagers caught with knives.

 

Until now, warnings were given to most of those under the age of 18 found with knives. With the change, anyone 16 or over who carries a knife with a blade longer than 3 inches will be prosecuted. Those convicted face a penalty of up to four years in prison.

 

"Young people need to understand that carrying knives doesn't protect you, it does the opposite — it increases the danger for all of us, destroys young lives and ruins families," Brown said.

 

For a major city, London has a low murder rate. Police say there were 159 homicides from April 2007 to the same month this year, about a third the number in similarly sized New York. But the number of victims under age 18 has risen. According to police figures, 17 teenagers were killed in London in 2006, 27 in 2007, and 16 so far this year. Eleven of the 16 were stabbed to death.

 

Many young people say pressure to carry — and use — knives is growing.

 

"It's increasing. It's stupid things like 'you have spoken to my girlfriend, I'll slash you up,' or 'If I see him out, he's having it,'" said Monique Morrison, 21, one of a group of young people who met with the prime minister Thursday to discuss the problem.

 

The grim regularity of stabbings over the past few months has alarmed Londoners.

 

The victims include 18-year-old Rob Knox, who had a small part in the upcoming film "Harry Potter And The Half-Blood Prince," and was stabbed to death while trying to break up a brawl outside a south London bar on May 24. A 21-year-old has been charged with his murder."

 

Can ballpoint pens be far behind??

 

[SageRider]

Where there's a will, there's a way. Doesn't matter much what the tool is.

[Fugu]

 

Can ballpoint pens be far behind??

 

Best to ban them now, just in case.

[Knifemaker]

Hope it wasn't one of mine...

 

Bad form Peter.... said Captain Hook

 

 

This is just another picture of mans inhumanity to man it is really sad...

[Bob Palin]

Where there's a will, there's a way. Doesn't matter much what the tool is.

I've been listening to this story for a few weeks now on the BBC. There have of course always been teenage fights but in the past these have most often ended in bumps and bruises or even broken bones. The current and growing teenage fad for carrying knives is causing a large increase in the number of deaths. It doesn't seem unreasonable that the government would want to do something about it.

 

Knife carrying is not entirely new, I have a scar on my left hand from a knife slash obtained during a fight at a soccer stadium in the 1970s, but knives were unusual even among the violent classes back then. (I applied my Doc Marten boot, worn with red socks naturally, to his nether regions then his nose so he came off worse...)

[Fugu]

Ban Doc Marten's boots now. Do it for the children.

[Bob Palin]

Ban Doc Marten's boots now. Do it for the children.

And two-tone trousers - do it for all of us.

[4wheeldog]

I grew up in a rough town. Back then, the bad guys carried knives, and I didn't until I ran into two of them at once.......And my running skills were not quite up to the task. Never bring (Only) your fists to a knife fight.

When you outlaw knives, only outlaws will have knives. Or something like that.

[Fugu]

 

 

 

 

[Lets_Play_Two]

Where there's a will, there's a way. Doesn't matter much what the tool is.

I've been listening to this story for a few weeks now on the BBC. There have of course always been teenage fights but in the past these have most often ended in bumps and bruises or even broken bones. The current and growing teenage fad for carrying knives is causing a large increase in the number of deaths. It doesn't seem unreasonable that the government would want to do something about it.

 

Knife carrying is not entirely new, I have a scar on my left hand from a knife slash obtained during a fight at a soccer stadium in the 1970s, but knives were unusual even among the violent classes back then. (I applied my Doc Marten boot, worn with red socks naturally, to his nether regions then his nose so he came off worse...)

 

I have carried a pocket knife since I was 7 years old....never stabbed anyone!

[Bob Palin]

I have carried a pocket knife since I was 7 years old....never stabbed anyone!

So you deny that's there a problem in London?

[Kitsap]

Where there's a will, there's a way. Doesn't matter much what the tool is.

 

Yep, a paper clip will do if one is so inclined. The knife simply is the tool of choice, what is driving them to have such hatred?

[Fugu]

what is driving them to have such hatred?

 

Probably music. We should ban it. All those in favor say AYE.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There's no single answer to societal ills. What's clear is that governmental action to do anything but punish criminals fails with astonishing regularity to net any positive results.

[Boffin]

 

Can ballpoint pens be far behind??

 

Best to ban them now, just in case.

 

Just to add some fact to the poor standard of reporting (by the BBC etc) here.

In the UK it has been illegal to carry a knife without good reason for several decades. From time to time the list of exemptions is varied. Currently the law does not apply to penknives with a blade length of 3inches or less and that does not lock open. Antique weapons are also excluded.

 

It is not illegal to carry other knives if you have good reason to do so, such as hunting, fishing or as a tool for a specific job.

 

There is no change to this law. All that has changed is that the home office, on the PMs suggestion, has instructed the police that persons over 16 who break the law should be under a 'presumption of prosecution'; i.e. they should not be released with a caution, except on exceptional circumstances. Previously this presumption has only applied to those over 18, with younger persons normally only cautioned for a first offence.

 

Andy

[Bob Palin]

Boffin beat me to it, I was just going to say that!

[Fugu]

In the UK it has been illegal to carry a knife without good reason for several decades.

 

Somebody really should alert the criminals that they are in violation of a several decades old law.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bob Palin]

In the UK it has been illegal to carry a knife without good reason for several decades.

 

Somebody really should alert the criminals that they are in violation of a several decades old law.

Did you actually read what he wrote?

 

They are trying to extend the punishment of criminals from those over 17 to those over 15. Isn't that what you wanted?

[Boffin]

In the UK it has been illegal to carry a knife without good reason for several decades.

 

Somebody really should alert the criminals that they are in violation of a several decades old law.

 

 

 

Whilst making gratuitous carrying of knives may not stop criminals carrying them, it allows the police to take action against the type of person who would do violence in this manner.

I can and do carry knives that are covered by this law, as do many people, because I have good reason to do so. It is a law which enables the law-abiding to go about their lawful occasions whilst allowing society to sanction those who would abuse those freedoms.

 

Andy

[Fugu]

Did you actually read what he wrote?

Yes, I did.

 

They are trying to extend the punishment of criminals from those over 17 to those over 15. Isn't that what you wanted?

 

No, not in this instance. Not at all.

 

Punishing a 16 year old for nothing more than carrying a pocket knife, especially if a 4 year sentence is possible as stated in the article, is ludicrous.

 

The very idea that it's the knives that need to be regulated is the problem- the idea that posession of an inanimate object causes crime.

 

Punish a 15 year old who commits assault with a deadly weapon or murder for the assault or for the murder using ages old laws already on the books- not for the mere posession of a tool. It makes as little sense as hate crime laws that presuppose purple on green crime is worse than green on green crime and want to punish them more severely.

 

I thought the point of the initial post, the one that Kitsap brings up, the one that I'm joking about is that the flawed human condition is the problem. Taking away tools isn't EVER going to solve it.

 

If we were left with Nerf balls and round nosed lefty scissors (unless you're a lefty in which case you get righty scissors), we'd find a way to murder one another.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Fugu]

Whilst making gratuitous carrying of knives may not stop criminals carrying them, it allows the police to take action against the type of person who would do violence in this manner.

 

How does it allow the police to divine their intent before they commit a crime?

 

If after it's a bit of a moot point, isn't it?

 

If they're willing to violate very serious laws about assault and murder, obviously they won't lose much sleep about a law pertaining to what tools they carry.

 

So we're back to where we always are. Laws trying to govern behavior having a negative impact on the lawful and little to no effect on the criminals.

 

 

 

[Boffin]

Punishing a 16 year old for nothing more than carrying a pocket knife, especially if a 4 year sentence is possible as stated in the article, is ludicrous.

 

That is a miss-understanding of the law. It is lawful for a 16yo, or anyone, to carry a pocket knife (we call them penknives) with good reason or if the blade is less than 3" and non-locking. Carry any knife on a camping trip, or whilst fishing etc. and no breach has been made. Carry that knife into a club or whilst hanging out on a street-corner and the question 'why' is inevitable. That behaviour is indicative of intent, this OLD and EXISTING law seeks to control that intent. This is not a new law. This is not changing anything except the presumption that a first offence should go unpunished.

[Boffin]

So we're back to where we always are. Laws trying to govern behavior having a negative impact on the lawful and little to no effect on the criminals.

 

What negative impact? Those who have good reason to use a knife can carry one freely.

 

As I said, I can and do carry knives regularly. My normal knife is a 2.75" locking Swiss Army Knife (given to me by the Swiss Air Force!)

 

As for affecting behaviour, this law and the change in emphasis of its enforcement is sending a message to those who are considering carrying knives to use against other people that the British people do not consider that to be acceptable in their society.

 

Andy

[Bob Palin]

As usual it comes down to where to draw the line. The law has no way to regulate the flaws in the human condition so has to try and reach a balance between what might be legitimately useful and what indicates an intent or willingness to commit a crime. Not easy to do and different people have quite different views on the subject (see: gun laws).

[Fugu]

That is a miss-understanding of the law. It is lawful for a 16yo, or anyone, to carry a pocket knife (we call them penknives) with good reason or if the blade is less than 3" and non-locking.

 

So the law supposes that if stopped, a criminal will fess up to not having a good reason to carry a knife?

 

Presumably it gets there because being slashed with a 2 7/8" blade that isn't locked in place is better than being slashed with 3" of steel that is locked.

 

 

Carry any knife on a camping trip, or whilst fishing etc. and no breach has been made. Carry that knife into a club or whilst hanging out on a street-corner and the question 'why' is inevitable.

 

Because I just came from camping, officer.

 

I plan on peeling an orange later and the longer blade helps me get the peel off in one of those nifty spirals that I use to flavor spanish coffee drinks later on.

 

 

 

That behaviour is indicative of intent

 

Hogwash. I'm rarely without a knife in my pocket and my intent is to do nothing other than cajole boxes into giving up their wonderful contents or possibly subdivide food items into bite size bits.

 

I am at once pleased that you see the intent of the law is to regulate intent, and dismayed that you actually think a law is capable of doing so in the face of evidence to the contrary.

 

You haven't answered my question about how a cop on the street is to determine if I really plan on peeling citrus, or whether I am a robber if I haven't committed a crime.

 

From your comments above is it correct to infer that this law can actually be enforced if a police officer sees what they think is intent? SO you can be charged with a crime based on the fact that you looked to an officer like you might commit one?

 

 

[Fugu]

What negative impact? ...

 

As I said, I can and do carry knives regularly. My normal knife is a 2.75" locking Swiss Army Knife

 

My normal knife has a locking 4 1/2" blade and was a gift from somebody important to me (it also fits my hand quite well and is a sturdy tool). Without "good reason" whatever that is I could be charged as a criminal for carrying it where you live. The mere posession of it on a street would appear to make me subject to incarceration and prosecution based on the judgment call of a police officer as pertains to what intent they think I might have.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Fugu]

As usual it comes down to where to draw the line.

 

And whether it should be drawn, and by whom if it is...

 

Frequently these sort of things (and other silly governmental actions) come out of "we have to do SOMETHING" thinking. I just wish we could add that makes sense to the end of that thought and quit looking for the quick fix in all the wrong places.

 

 

[Boffin]

Presumably it gets there because being slashed with a 2 7/8" blade that isn't locked in place is better than being slashed with 3" of steel that is locked.

 

Limiting blade length reduces the chances of a fatal puncture wound.

 

I am at once pleased that you see the intent of the law is to regulate intent, and dismayed that you actually think a law is capable of doing so in the face of evidence to the contrary.

 

I did not say I thought it works, just what is intended. I think the main issue is that without this law, or a similar one, society is in effect condoning the behaviour. "If it was bad, it would be illegal".

 

You haven't answered my question about how a cop on the street is to determine if I really plan on peeling citrus, or whether I am a robber if I haven't committed a crime.

 

The law implies that an orange does not need a long blade to peel it.

 

You haven't answered my question about how a cop on the street is to determine if I really plan on peeling citrus, or whether I am a robber if I haven't committed a crime.

 

From your comments above is it correct to infer that this law can actually be enforced if a police officer sees what they think is intent?

 

It does not take long for a cop to get to know when he is being fed BS. The law forbids carrying knives without good reason, and for better or worse, presumes intent without said good reason.

 

SO you can be charged with a crime based on the fact that you looked to an officer like you might commit one?

 

The crime you get charged with is illegal posseion of a knife. It is up to the courts to decide if reasons given are reasonable within the statute.

 

 

That is all for now - it is 10 past midnight and my bed beckons...

 

 

Andy

[Bob Palin]

As usual it comes down to where to draw the line.

And whether it should be drawn, and by whom if it is...

Indeed, but I think you'll find that in the society in question the vast majority of people will be in favour of the law. Is that a valid reason for drawing a line? Maybe not, tyranny of the majority and all that. Somebody will be opposed to any law you make, can you have a working society built on lawlessness?

[Huzband]

Wow, a knife thread.

 

Who'd a thunk it?

[Fugu]

Limiting blade length reduces the chances of a fatal puncture wound.

 

Not from a standard #2 Phillips screwdriver it doesn't. Shall they be banned next? People could have stubby screwdrivers, but would have to demonstrate that they have a screw they have to reach that's far down in a hole to be allowed to have a regular one.

 

Remember, if we don't ban them, that means society condones screwdriver stabbings.

 

It seems that the line of thinking there is flawed. Assault is illegal. Who cares what was used? Where do we stop outlawing things that might be used as deadly weapons and start focusing on the real problem of the criminals?

 

 

[Fugu]

Indeed, but I think you'll find that in the society in question the vast majority of people will be in favour of the law. Is that a valid reason for drawing a line? Maybe not, tyranny of the majority and all that.

 

I don't know where the ultimate solution is, but I know which way I lean, and I lean pretty hard.

 

Somebody will be opposed to any law you make, can you have a working society built on lawlessness?

 

Doesn't that (as Boffin's posts also seem to) suppose that without formal or written law, man has no moral compass, ie that all behavioral norms derive from societal influence?

 

Ignoring the chicken and egg issue, we have to realize that the first societies, small groups, clans, whatever had no formal law as we know it. There was certainly murder. Some was condoned some was not. There were unwritten laws - some believe they were endowed by a creator. To this discussion I don't think where they came from is relevant.

 

Many, many years later we are awash in laws, and people made powerful by them create more every day. There's plenty of murder and millions of citizens in cells who we know will do more crime when they get out. Lately our response is to sanction the law abiding.

 

Progress, eh? What have all these laws done to curb man's nature to kill other men?

 

 

 

 

[Bob Palin]

Well, we've been down this "what to do with criminals" line of discussion before and it never leads anywhere so this is as far as I'm willing to go. I'll just say, since it's relevant to the original issue, that I don't believe that most of the teenagers who are committing the knife crimes in England are hardened criminals and should be removed permanently from society. It's a fad, it needs to be stopped for sure.

[ltljohn]

Wow, a knife thread.

 

Who'd a thunk it?

 

 

Danny, you read my mind.

This all sounds vaguely familiar

[AdventurePoser]

I grew up in a rough town. Back then, the bad guys carried knives, and I didn't until I ran into two of them at once.......And my running skills were not quite up to the task. Never bring (Only) your fists to a knife fight.

When you outlaw knives, only outlaws will have knives. Or something like that.

 

You think your town was rough? My town was so rough that when you came in, they checked you for weapons. If you didn't have one, they'd loan you one.

 

Thank you! I'll be here all week. Try the veal.

 

Steve in So Cal

[russell_bynum]

Where there's a will, there's a way. Doesn't matter much what the tool is.

 

Ayup.

 

And where there's not a will, it doesn't matter if there's a way.

 

I've had a knife in my pocket every day of my life since I was 15. Somehow I've managed not to stab any 15 year-old girls to death in elevators.

[Quinn]

What is your reason to carry a 2 3/4 inch blade knife? Just curious to know what a valid reason would be. My pocket knife cuts a lot of cardboard, opens letter, slices apples, and is available to stab people if need be. I don't understand the non-locking vs. locking blade thing either. You're an idiot not to have a locking blade on a folding knife.

 

Also, has the murder rate actually gone down with the gun ban and knife ban? Or have other things replaced them as tools?

 

 

[Boffin]

What is your reason to carry a 2 3/4 inch blade knife? Just curious to know what a valid reason would be. My pocket knife cuts a lot of cardboard, opens letter, slices apples, and is available to stab people if need be. I don't understand the non-locking vs. locking blade thing either. You're an idiot not to have a locking blade on a folding knife.

 

Also, has the murder rate actually gone down with the gun ban and knife ban? Or have other things replaced them as tools?

 

 

I carry a knife when camping, fishing or sailing. There is also one in the toolkit in my car and my bike. edit: The law does not prohibit the use or carrying of knives in the domestic environment, so letter opening etc. is not an issue.

 

As for the murder rate, it has slightly lowered, though not significantly. Most murders are still domestic crimes (by a significant amount), with inter-criminal violence the next highest. There is a low chance of an individual being assaulted by someone they do not know. Knife-related assaults make up 8% of all reported crime in the UK, a figure which has remained stable for a long time, though the ages of those involved is getting much younger. Figures are not collected for offenders under 16, though they now will be.

 

 

The locking vs non-locking thing is because the effort needed to stab someone could well simply cause the blade to fold. I do not use folding knives that do not lock.

 

Andy

[Lets_Play_Two]

I have carried a pocket knife since I was 7 years old....never stabbed anyone!

So you deny that's there a problem in London?

 

I'm not judging, I'm just saying....

[Fugu]

Well, we've been down this "what to do with criminals" line of discussion before

 

Exactly my point. Focusing on the tool is foolish. Focus on the criminal. You can substitute any tool you want, the problem remains the criminal in all of these situations.

 

I'll just say, since it's relevant to the original issue, that I don't believe that most of the teenagers who are committing the knife crimes in England are hardened criminals

 

Which knife crimes? Possession w/o "good reason" or stabbing people? One of the problems with silly laws targeting inanimate objects is that the distinction gets lost.

 

 

The scene: Dark prison cell, prisoners seated side by side on a bench against the wall:

 

Prisoner 1: What you in for?

Prisoner 2: Armed robbery. You?

Prisoner 1: I had a lock blade pocket knife without good reason per the constable.

 

(Prisoner 2 scoots down the bench, away from Prisoner 1, with a worried look on his face)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bob Palin]

As for the murder rate, it has slightly lowered, though not significantly.

Depends on the question, guns were banned a long time ago and I imagine 'weapon' type knives too, but the murder rate has doubled since the 1960s. It's still only 1/10 the rate of the US though the violent crime rate in Britain is higher than the US. Petty crime is off the top of the charts when compared to the US.

[Lets_Play_Two]

As for the murder rate, it has slightly lowered, though not significantly.

Depends on the question, guns were banned a long time ago and I imagine 'weapon' type knives too, but the murder rate has doubled since the 1960s. It's still only 1/10 the rate of the US though the violent crime rate in Britain is higher than the US. Petty crime is off the top of the charts when compared to the US.

 

I wonder if the possibility I might be packing a pocket knife with a locking blade deters petty criminals?

 

 

[Scarecrow]

Where there's a will, there's a way. Doesn't matter much what the tool is.

Reminds me of a comedy routine (can't remember whose) about guns.

Guns don't kill people, bullets do!

 

Of course the gun helps get the bullet moving fast enough, otherwise it's really tough to push the bullet through the skin.

[Fugu]

Yeah and you couldn't walk up to the clerk at a convenience store with a handful of bullets and say GIMME ALL THE MONEY

 

 

Jake Johannsen is the comic who's material we are slaughtering...

 

I've always liked that bit... the guns just make the bullets go really fast.