Does today mark the death of the SUV?

[Husker Red]

 

GM is closing 4 of their truck and SUV plants in the US. CNN link Americans are starting to conserve and all it took was $4 gas. Just think of how green we'll be when gas hits $6. While part of me says good riddance to gas guzzlers, another part of me can't help but feel a little nostalgic at the passing of an old friend. We had many good times together.

 

My '98 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.9 Limited is a collector classic now. That baby was so powerful she could climb a tree then pull out the stump. She could chug premium faster than frat boys funnel beer. 345 ft/pds of torque pulled a boat with ease and left tuner cars at the line. She took us camping, crawled over rocks on remote fire roads, and plowed through snow while hunting in Nebraska. Someday we'll pull off the dust cover and take her around the block and remember the good old days of cheap gas, big engines, and American muscle.

 

[Lone_RT_rider]

Someday we'll pull off the dust cover and take her around the block and remember the good old days of cheap gas, big engines, and American muscle.

 

Somehow I am having flashbacks to somewhere in the early to mid seventies. Anyone remember the "death of a musclecar"?

 

Shawn

[tallman]

Let's hope so.

Yes.

A nice hybrid low rider will be the next big thing.

[smiller]

Anyone remember the "death of a musclecar"?

Yeah, and many of of todays's performance cars are faster than some of the most fondly-remembered models of that era, along with nearly double the fuel efficiency and night-and-day better handling.

 

But oh crap, the bottom-end torque of those old big blocks... we never did see the likes of that again.

[motoguy128]

Anyone remember the "death of a musclecar"?

 

But oh crap, the bottom-end torque of those old big blocks... we never did see the likes of that again.

 

Instead we'll get bottom end torque from electric traction motors.... but the whirl of some gearwhine and ... electric induction, is not much to get excited about.

 

The new muscle car will be a hybrid V6... with almost 300HP, but 35mpg on the freeway. However, when gas is $6-8, 35mpg, isn't all that wonderful.

[David]

My '98 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.9 Limited is a collector classic now. That baby was so powerful she could climb a tree then pull out the stump. She could chug premium faster than frat boys funnel beer. 345 ft/pds of torque pulled a boat with ease and left tuner cars at the line.

 

I've got that number in HP, and double that number in torque. And I got 23 mpg last week. What a lightweight.

[Husker Red]

I've got that number in HP, and double that number in torque. And I got 23 mpg last week. What a lightweight.

 

Were you being towed by a Jeep?

[russell_bynum]

My '98 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.9 Limited is a collector classic now. That baby was so powerful she could climb a tree then pull out the stump. She could chug premium faster than frat boys funnel beer. 345 ft/pds of torque pulled a boat with ease and left tuner cars at the line.

 

I've got that number in HP, and double that number in torque. And I got 23 mpg last week. What a lightweight.

 

[Dennis Andress]

Wouldn't that be nice. Cars like this make splitting a breeze and it's much easier to see if driver is on the phone.

 

[Lets_Play_Two]

My '98 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.9 Limited is a collector classic now. That baby was so powerful she could climb a tree then pull out the stump. She could chug premium faster than frat boys funnel beer. 345 ft/pds of torque pulled a boat with ease and left tuner cars at the line.

 

I've got that number in HP, and double that number in torque. And I got 23 mpg last week. What a lightweight.

 

And what was the price of the fuel to power that monster?

[David]

And what was the price of the fuel to power that monster?

 

Let's not go there.

[russell_bynum]

And what was the price of the fuel to power that monster?

 

Let's not go there.

 

Despite the idiotic price of Diesel today compared to gas, I believe it still works out in diesel's favor on a cost/mile basis.

[baggerchris]

I wonder how the new E85 would affect a beast like that? When you pull the tarp off the big Jeep and fill her up, will that stuff eat out all your gaskets and rubber stuff? Was that Jeep even built to withstand the 10% garbage? I went to wash out the fuel filter in my 18 year old Shindaiwa chain saw, and the fuel line melted in my hand, and that is with the 10% stuff.

[mickey05]

4 empty truck plants, hmmmmmm. Nothing like keeping the door open for the Chinese auto investors. Something positive better change for this country's economy or we are all screwed.

[Lets_Play_Two]

4 empty truck plants, hmmmmmm. Nothing like keeping the door open for the Chinese auto investors. Something positive better change for this country's economy or we are all screwed.

 

Wouldn't it be positive if Chinese auto investors decided to buy those plants and build cars in them using US auto workers?

[azkaisr]

It would be better if the Indian Car makers bought those plants.

 

[marcopolo]

GM is closing 4 of their truck and SUV plants in the US. CNN link

 

It's two plants in the US, one in Canada and one in Mexico, but I understand your point nonetheless.

[Matts_12GS]

The new muscle car will be a hybrid V6... with almost 300HP, but 35mpg on the freeway. However, when gas is $6-8, 35mpg, isn't all that wonderful.

 

I dunno, my 87 corvette would get 32 on the highway at 90 with 308hp at the wheels.

I've seen many many T type and Grand National V-6s break that 300HP mark and still get high 20's for highway mileage.

 

It's not hard to do, the behavior just has to given some incentive. Like the tax breaks for hybrids, etc...

[mickey05]

As long as they stayed a UAW shop and built Quality cars and did not funnel all the money back to China then it might have some interest. Or they can come here buy it at auction ship it back to China and compete against the few auto manufacturers left. I not sure but I think that happened to a company called Rubbermaid.

[Lineareagle]

I hope so, not that I do not love the idea of a nice big vehicle, I have really lusted after some.

 

But really its time has come and is now gone.

 

Side Note:

I have a VW TDI and my 1200GSA. They cost exactly the same to operate. Same mileage, same maintenance, same insurance bill.

 

Fuel here now is. . . wait for it $5.10/gal premium or diesel.

There are alot of PU's and SUV's for sale!

 

And yes closing our local GM plant will cost us big time, I am NOT a friend of Made in China, they have scarfed up a great many plants in our area. First time Canada has more service than manufacturing jobs, NOT GOOD.

 

Time to retire, anybody need a slightly used manager?

 

Does not speak Mandarin!

[velomoto]

I dunno, my 87 corvette would get 32 on the highway at 90 with 308hp at the wheels.

The new corvette tested by Consumer Reports had 24 mpg over their 150 mile test (22 mph with auto). The CR's highway economy was 31 mpg (29 w/auto), but not at 90 mph...

 

To put things into perspective, 35mpg is better highway mileage than a 4 cylinder Accord with automatic and NOT at 90 mph.

[DiggerJim]

As long as they stayed a UAW shop and built Quality cars and did not funnel all the money back to China then it might have some interest.

Kinda like Honda or Toyota with their plants in the U.S.? Ooops, forgot about the UAW thing. That's part of why we need to close the doors here.

 

BTW, most of the money being paid for a "Japanese" Honda stays in the U.S. in the form of raw materials, labor, advertising, dealers, etc. etc....not to mention where the Japanese are investing the profits There's not nearly as much funneling "all the mondy back" to a foreign country as many believe.

 

Not that I would expect that to be an issue amongst folks who chose to drill $20K into a German motorcycle instead of a nice American made Buell

[Joel]

I'm disgusted, but from another viewpoint: The industry and consumers should have seen long ago that an obsession with products based on light truck chassis was foolish. I'm in favor of a diverse market that offers freedom of choice, so that someone who wants a large vehicle and is willing to pay for operating it can get one. Likewise for hybrids or smart cars. I just wish more effort had been spent during the last 10+ years on real innovation, rather than adding more bling to already blinged-out trucks and SUVs. It has been a vicious but stupid circle: consumers bought more trucks and SUVs because the manufacturers focused their attentions on the feeding frenzy in that market segment, making all the other choices less appealing.

 

Now, I hope the lemmings don't charge in the direction of an ill-conceived reaction to the current circumstances. I'd rather not face a future of 31 flavors of Chinese smart car.

[Matts_12GS]

I dunno, my 87 corvette would get 32 on the highway at 90 with 308hp at the wheels.

The new corvette tested by Consumer Reports had 24 mpg over their 150 mile test (22 mph with auto). The CR's highway economy was 31 mpg (29 w/auto), but not at 90 mph...

 

To put things into perspective, 35mpg is better highway mileage than a 4 cylinder Accord with automatic and NOT at 90 mph.

 

I don't know the why's or not, but I used to set the cruise at 85+ and I'd go through have a pack of smokes before I hit empty on that 20 gallon tank.

 

I even have a favorite story of doing a track visit at Daytona on the oval with the cruise set about 125 smoking cigarettes listening to black sabbath on the cassette deck.

 

think about it though, even at 29mpg with the automatic, for a car putting that much power to the wheels, it's not that bad.

 

I'm not looking for one as a commuter, but, it could be worse.

[Mike]

Amidst the growing disdain for SUVs, the fact that they were largely a creation of federal law is generally ignored. Way back when, when Congress mandated the Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) standards, SUVs were pretty much nonexistent. Americans who needed a vehicle that could haul a lot of people or cargo turned to station wagons or full-size sedans. But the perverse incentives created by CAFE standards created the market for SUVs, which, being classified as trucks, are subject to less stringent CAFE standards.

 

It's a classic case of government intervention screwing up a market. More efficient automobiles were supplanted by heavier, less aerodynamic, and more thirsty vehicles. I don't entirely blame the consumers who turned to SUVs over the years for contributing to our high consumption of fuel; much of the blame lies with the politicians who wanted to be able to tout the fact that they had solved the fuel crisis.

[David]

Section 179 deductability manipulated the market (in the wrong direction), too. Which is exactly why I bought my truck, effectively getting a 40%+ discount on the thing. Just because it weighed more than x amount.

[smiller]

I dunno, my 87 corvette would get 32 on the highway at 90 with 308hp at the wheels.

That means you could comfortably cruise along with those 1200RT owners while they get 55 mpg at that speed...

[Ken H.]

 

GAWD I hope so. If ever there is a symbol for whats wrong with America, it's the ego-maniacal SUV. Excess purely for the purpose of flaunting excessiveness.

 

Oops, I swore to myself I wasn't going to get into these "Other Topics" controversial threads again!

 

 

[mickey05]

"Kinda like Honda or Toyota with their plants in the U.S.? Ooops, forgot about the UAW thing. That's part of why we need to close the doors here."

 

Kinda like Honda ( excellent quality) or Toyota (some vehicles UAW built) likewise excellent quality both good points. Workers that make good wages and be able to give it to their family in ways of health care, retirements (you know reward for years worked), college educations for the little ones and just a better overall way of life. Yep it is all the Unions fault for trying to get the employees an honest days pay for an honest days work not that pesky Corporate greed thing. Oh yeah the point about the Buell, if they made a bike like the 1200 RT with the same features and quality I would consider it just because I am not brand loyal . Think about it there DiggerJim have you bought anything except electronics that the average consumer buys from China that is truly high quality? I don't think I would compare Japanese made to Chinese I think we know who would win that quality award. Yes the Big Auto's should have seen it coming but did most consumers really give the gas prices today a thought 6 months ago? Toyota didn't with the Tundra. I am Pro labor you are obviously not. No one, but No one deserves to lose their jobs end of story.

[StuGotz]

Somehow these threads always digress to attack mode.

 

Can we please leave the Union bashing out of normal discussion.

 

Thanks,

 

MB>

[Matts_12GS]

GAWD I hope so. If ever there is a symbol for whats wrong with America, it's the ego-maniacal SUV. Excess purely for the purpose of flaunting excessiveness.

 

Oops, I swore to myself I wasn't going to get into these "Other Topics" controversial threads again!

 

 

It's ok Ken, they were all built in Canada anywayt so you should only find minimal more competition for jobs.

[BeniciaRT_GT]

Kinda like Honda or Toyota with their plants in the U.S.? Ooops, forgot about the UAW thing. That's part of why we need to close the doors here.

 

Wow, I'm not sure, but I really think that is one of the most ignorant and incredibly broad comments I've ever seen here. What about Mexico? Were the workers there just too greedy too?

 

If you care to pry open your mind just a tiny little bit, try and see what happened out my way at the Nummi plant out here.

 

Couldn't make money for jack (all the Union's fault of course) so they closed.

 

Pretty soon, Toyota comes in and opens it back up with the same union and workers, and tada, it became the most efficient and profitable plant in the U.S.

 

I'm sure it wasn't a management problem though.

[Dick]

Wouldn't it be positive if Chinese auto investors decided to buy those plants and build cars in them using US auto workers?

 

Who would ever think of anything like that?

[Marek]

My Suburban on a cross country trip gets 20 mpg, I can load it with all the toys I want, take all 5 of us anywhere, sand snow etc. We would have to drive two Hybrids thus eliminating any gas savings.

 

Mark

[tallman]

Mark,

This is the conundrum of modern living.

Does 1 person driving a gas hog = evil?

Do several/many people rdiing in same vehicle = good?

Many years ago VW buses were called among the most efficient vehicles ever designed (up there w/the 10 speed bicycle) because when loaded to capacity (number of people), they still got very good mpg.

The concept was that based on the number of "people miles"/gallon.

I still agree with the principle, but unfortunately, rarely see the vehicles utilized that way.

One of my biggest gripes is the visibility issues when driving regular car or motorcycle.

SUV's and large passenger trucks create horrible blackout areas.

Also, they wreak havoc on regualr cars when in an accident.

I'd love to be riding on the road that was totally SUV free.

[Francois_Dumas]

My Suburban on a cross country trip gets 20 mpg, I can load it with all the toys I want, take all 5 of us anywhere, sand snow etc. We would have to drive two Hybrids thus eliminating any gas savings.

 

Mark

 

 

... then again, you could just stay home, enjoy a good book and save the earth

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Lone_RT_rider]

... then again, you could just stay home, enjoy a good book and save the earth

 

 

If Americans had "just stayed home", there would be a couple hundred million more people in Europe. It's just not in our nature.

[Bullett]

I certainly hope so.

[Lets_Play_Two]

As long as they stayed a UAW shop and built Quality cars and did not funnel all the money back to China then it might have some interest. Or they can come here buy it at auction ship it back to China and compete against the few auto manufacturers left. I not sure but I think that happened to a company called Rubbermaid.

 

May or may not be a union shop. 15000 non-union jobs is better than 0 union jobs, isn't it? Can't send all the money back to China, have to pay wages, pay for supplies, pay taxes. The chinese plant managers would move here and buy big houses and pay more taxes!!!!

[velomoto]

Can we please leave the Union bashing out of normal discussion.

 

Thanks,

 

MB>

Sorry MB, but Union bashing came into vogue a few decades ago. This was led by those who were pro-business and quickly followed by those who wither were young and inexperienced, naive or simply unaware of history and how unions have benefited the average worker and families. Ironically the same people who claimed to be "pro family" have led the fight against unions. Perhaps this is a case of "the grass being greener on the other side" but I'm in a non-union industry, have worked side by side with unions in other jobs, and can see where we could truly benefit from a resurgence of unions. For example...

 

Why is it American workers have one third to one quarter the number of days off compared to our counterparts in Europe and Japan? If America is so "pro-family", then why don't workers get more time to spend with their families?

 

As unions have lost power, the percentage difference between pay at the top and bottom has skyrocketed. One of the key fights unions made was for a greater share of money to the workers. Some very successful companies actually do this, most do not.

 

Certainly unions have had their faults, but IMO they are unfairly being used as a scape goat every time the auto industry has trouble. I'd certainly consider an American product again, but frankly the vehicles they've designed from, motorcycles to mini-vans, simply don't meet my needs as well as the products from their competitors. I would place Detroit's problems squarely on the shoulders of the management and designers who made the decisions on what to produce - not the people who built the product.

[David]

What do you do for a living? Your profile is unusually bare.

[tallman]

What do you do for a living? Your profile is unusually bare.

 

Exactly.

 

And now, for something completely different.

http://bmwsporttouring.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=344573#Post344573

Another reason that I posted this request.

If you won't show and tell, why play?

[Twisties]

I would place Detroit's problems squarely on the shoulders of the management and designers who made the decisions on what to produce - not the people who built the product.

 

+1

 

As for concerns with foreign ownership of production in the U.S. and Canada, so far these are publicly traded companies. You control where the profit goes. Buy their stock and it comes to you. Don't buy their stock and it goes elsewhere. At this point the only meaning of being Japanese, Chinese, or U.S. "owned" is who you pay taxes to.

 

The vehicles themselves are so broadly sourced that they can only be described as international.

 

 

 

 

[velomoto]

Amidst the growing disdain for SUVs, the fact that they were largely a creation of federal law is generally ignored. Way back when, when Congress mandated the Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) standards, SUVs were pretty much nonexistent. Americans who needed a vehicle that could haul a lot of people or cargo turned to station wagons or full-size sedans. But the perverse incentives created by CAFE standards created the market for SUVs, which, being classified as trucks, are subject to less stringent CAFE standards.

 

It's a classic case of government intervention screwing up a market. More efficient automobiles were supplanted by heavier, less aerodynamic, and more thirsty vehicles. I don't entirely blame the consumers who turned to SUVs over the years for contributing to our high consumption of fuel; much of the blame lies with the politicians who wanted to be able to tout the fact that they had solved the fuel crisis.

FWIW, my mini-van hauls more stuff and more people in greater comfort than the Expedition it replaced. The mini-van gets 50% to 80% better fuel economy, is faster, handles better, and when I put on the snow tires in the winter it will corner and stop better in adverse conditions as well.

 

Mini-vans however just not in vogue, and perhaps never were. The drivers were stereotyped as "soccer moms". I've had more than one friend state their wife "would NEVER be caught driving a mini-van". So the only alternative was the SUV.

 

CAFE, as flawed as it is, simply is not the villain in this story. The basic problem is that Americans have opted for inefficient vehicles - there were (and still are) other options. Detroit has been designing, building and marketing SUV's and PU's because they have (had?) far greater profit margins.

 

In any case, the recent rise in crude and gas prices will do that which CAFE could not - Detroit will develop more fuel efficient vehicles.

 

[velomoto]

What do you do for a living? Your profile is unusually bare.

 

Exactly.

 

And now, for something completely different.

http://bmwsporttouring.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=344573#Post344573

Another reason that I posted this request.

If you won't show and tell, why play?

 

Interesting thot... is one's profile any more or less believable than what one posts?

 

I'm in the semiconductor industry, have worked in military as a "rocket scientist" designing stuff for things that go "boom" and for Reagan's Star Wars program to stop those things from reaching America. I've also worked in the chemical industry and fully appreciate the slogan, "better living thru chemistry."

[tallman]

Not necessarily.

However, one can be fairly easily verified, and many folks here have met face to face.

We may not always agree on an issue, but we know who we are disagreeing with.

There are many sites to participate in where anonymity and keyboard gunfights are the norm.

That isn't typically the environment here.

For myself, perhaps a few others, if you won't tell us who you are, where you are, then perhaps your posts will be less believable.

Perhaps not.

We've had Trolls in the past who went to great lengths to avoid detection and forment discord.

Thankfully, they were dealt with.

My point is this.

If you choose to participate here, then participate.

Fill out your profile, post if the spirit moves you, or lurk.

 

Best wishes.

 

Death to the SUV.

Use them for artificial reefs.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And just maybe the price will fall so low I could afford one.

[Twisties]

Amidst the growing disdain for SUVs, the fact that they were largely a creation of federal law is generally ignored. Way back when, when Congress mandated the Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) standards, SUVs were pretty much nonexistent. Americans who needed a vehicle that could haul a lot of people or cargo turned to station wagons or full-size sedans. But the perverse incentives created by CAFE standards created the market for SUVs, which, being classified as trucks, are subject to less stringent CAFE standards.

 

It's a classic case of government intervention screwing up a market. More efficient automobiles were supplanted by heavier, less aerodynamic, and more thirsty vehicles. I don't entirely blame the consumers who turned to SUVs over the years for contributing to our high consumption of fuel; much of the blame lies with the politicians who wanted to be able to tout the fact that they had solved the fuel crisis.

 

I thought Detroit argued for those exemptions long and hard? I thought they claimed they'd go out of business without them because the market demanded larger vehicles.

 

I don't buy your argument at all. The market is made by advertising and Detroit chose to market gas guzzlers. Detroit created it's markets and got government to kowtow to them and their vision.

 

I'll put the problem down to a flawed marketing model in Detroit and corruption in D.C.: excessive power of special interests and too much money.

 

In any event, in the meanwhile, "foreign" manufacturers came late to the guzzler market and are not in it in so big a way. They did just fine with more economical entries, albeit not economical enough.

[too old to care]

I hate to see Americans, or anyone (Canadians, Mexicans, etc) lose their jobs. But we cannot blame GM, or the unions, for closing those plants.

 

For years GM did what any company would when they were faced with competing with more efficient foreign manufacturers; build something that Americans wanted when the foreign competitors would not. They then marketed those products by showing how they could get you out in the wilderness with those imaginary boats that most people never bought.

 

We bought that marketing for many years, which is probably what kept GM, Ford and Chrysler alive. They made huge profits from those large SUVs, much more than they could have ever made on a family sedan, mini-van or station wagon.

 

At the same time our foreign competitors built cars not only for the US, but the world. Before I retired I visited dozens of countries while on assignments and I paid outrageous prices for gas long before we began paying those prices. I never rented a car that got less than 30 mpg on the highway, even in Germany at stupid speeds on the autobahn.

 

GM, Ford and Chrysler need to realize that SUVs are dead and make efficient, but roomy vehicles. As an example, our Volvo V70 with 168 hp can tow a 3,300 pound trailer, carry me and my wife, our dog, two friends, two bicycles on top, and enough luggage for a nice vacation. Without the trailer it gets 31.5 mpg on the highway and almost 27 mpg just running around. We don’t own a trailer or boat, so we always get that mileage.

 

If Volvo, VW, Mercedes, Audi, and others can make such efficient wagons, why can’t Detroit. If they want their business back, they will have to.

 

[Francois_Dumas]

 

Death to the SUV.

Use them for artificial reefs.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And just maybe the price will fall so low I could afford one.

 

Now hang on Tim... it took me 54 years of saving to be able to afford me one..... never mind it sits in the driveway most of the time because of $ 10/gallon fuel..... I want to keep it,if only as a 'statement' to the guys who sacked me (so they could drive their Lexusus around town ) !!!

 

[Ken H.]

It's ok Ken, they were all built in Canada anywayt so you should only find minimal more competition for jobs.

While recognizing your intended sarcasm, I also point out that the Hummer is built in South Bend, Indiana, Port Elizabeth, South Africa and Kaliningrad, Russia. (Which in itself is kind of an interesting illustration that there is no such thing as an "American Car" anymore. But that's a different subject.)

 

And an increase in the overall well being of society by the diminishing negative effects of SUVs, will more than offset any specific resulting job losses anyway. ("IMHO" of course.)