Berlin Airlift

[millbert]

What a coincidence,Just finished reading the post on The Americans.

 

I must of asked 100 people at work and around town,NO ONES ever heard of the Berlin Airlift!

 

One of the greatest humanitarian efforts ever IMHO .Un$&^^$^believable!!

 

 

[Francois_Dumas]

Not so incredible as it might seem..... I know of a few youngsters around here that now know zilch about the 2nd WW, OR the Korean War for that matter..... incredible to me, but not to them.

[Matts_12GS]

Reminds me of my night last night at a couple different events getting drug into political conversations with morons.

 

Hard as it may be to believe, I didn't start either of them!

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

What a coincidence,Just finished reading the post on The Americans.

 

I must of asked 100 people at work and around town,NO ONES ever heard of the Berlin Airlift!

 

One of the greatest humanitarian efforts ever IMHO .Un$&^^$^believable!!

 

 

When I was in school I hated studying history. Routinely got C's and D's, even got an F one quarter in high school. I don't recall details of history, but I have at least heard of major things like the Berlin airlift, and understand the basics of what happened.

 

History is a little bit more interesting to me lately, and with the web at my fingertips I occasionally go exploring on my own to satisfy whatever strikes my curiosity on any given day. And maybe that's the difference, being able to explore the subject matter to whatever depth (or lack thereof) that suits me personally. Some of the documentaries on the History Channel have been worthwhile to me, too.

[OoPEZoO]

Of course there is always my lovely Danielle (an excellent example of our pubic school systems). I guess it was about 2 winters ago because I remember being stuck at home on a rather snowy weekend when I started watch my DVD set of Band of Brothers. Danielle walks in, asks what I'm watching, sits down and watches about 2 hours of it and then asks who they are they fighting and who are the bad guys . I guess the "bad guy" think could be argued depending on which side you were on, but wow. I ended up stopping the movie about every 20 min and explaining to her what was going on and why. Her only excuse is that "I didn't like history". I mean....neither did I, but I at least know it happend. I'm glad she can cook.

 

I'm honestly not even sure if she even knows there WAS a Korean war. I'll take that back, she might have caught a rerun of MASH once.

 

 

[Albert]

"Band of Brothers". Was that a musical?

[f86sabre]

I know when I was in high school 15 years ago I was one of the few people who really loved history. Combine that with a love of aviation and you had a teenager who knew the Berlin airlift was one of the shining moments for the DC-4/C-54. I guess I was a bit of an odd one.

 

[tallman]

Don't get me started.

After the "fall" of the USSR, many changes were implemented in this country's approach to teaching History.

We had "won" and there was nothing but blue skies and open roads ahead.

An entire generation was raised w/out an appreciation for how we got to where we were at that point in time.

The focus shifted from "Ask not what your country can do for you"

to what can I do for myself and consequences be damned.

Our leaders, in govenment and business, made a mockery of ethics and morals.

Our popular culture embraced the lowest common denominator as marketable, corrupting values, destroying the concept of a nuclear family, and glamorizing illegal activities.

Historians will look back at the rise and fall of the American Empire and focus on the last part of the 20th/early part of the 21st centuries as the point in time where a nation forgot its past, did not prepare for its future, and our citizens sat by, mesmerized by popular culture.

Nero fiddled while Rome burned.

We at least have a fire department, but no one seems willing to sound the alarm.

A nation is built upon the foundation of its History.

To neglect the foundation can only lead to problems, condemnation, structural collapse, and redevelopment.

The question is, who will do the development?

Will it be an American nation, or will it be subsidized by OPEC?

Our Constitution guarantees certain rights.

Our Declaration of Independence speaks to certain unalienable rights.

Like having a free pass to an All You Can Eat buffet, our citizens have gorged themself at the trough of Ignorance.

We do not respect our past, or honor those who built the Nation.

Our Media is so interested in ratings they will slant reality to create a miasma of misinformation.

Reality has become what Hollywood or some Talking Head tells you it is.

Without the knowledge of the past, one does not have the ability to discriminate between fact/fiction/opinion/falsehood.

Without knowledge of the past, one cannot appreciate what it means to be a Citizen.

The move in Education to Exit Tests for "accountablilty" is spotlighting Math, Science, Reading, Writing.

A good idea.

These are skills used, at times, by all.

However, I would submit that History, in the subcontext of Civics, is used ALL the time. The problem being that most do not have the skills to function as a Citizen.

Some would argue that to forget the Past leaves you an orphan and doomed to repeat the mistakes of yesterday.

I would add, that to be ignorant of the Past, through choice or lack of opportunity, is the single greatest deficit a human being can have in the cognitive realm.

Sadly, many don't realise they suffer from this malady and blithely carry on as if the world around them will not change.

It has, it will, and we won't like it.

[OoPEZoO]

Tim.....you forgot....[/rant]

 

Lot of good points there.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

History is a little bit more interesting to me lately, and with the web at my fingertips I occasionally go exploring on my own to satisfy whatever strikes my curiosity on any given day.

 

Case in point. This thread piqued my curiosity, so I took a look:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Blockade

 

Now I understand better what led up to the blockade - and the subsequent airlift - and why the Soviets were letting air traffic through while blocking ground traffic. This is all stuff about which I would not have given a rat's ass 25 years ago.

[Matts_12GS]

Don't get me started.

 

"Yes, yes, but other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?"

 

That quote has long been my dad's way of expressing his disdain for the popular culture's influence on life.

 

Very well said Tim.

[tallman]

Tim.....you forgot....[/rant]

 

Lot of good points there.

 

Nope, that wasn't me in rant mode.

 

Example of what is happening all around us, from today's "news".

Will this mean the King is Dead?

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/Extra/CouldUSLosetheKingOfBeers.aspx

 

And, no, it isn't a great beer, yes it was originally brewed somewhere else, but, today it provides jobs, support and identity to a community, and across the country.

 

[SageRider]

History is a little bit more interesting to me lately, and with the web at my fingertips I occasionally go exploring on my own to satisfy whatever strikes my curiosity on any given day.

 

Case in point. This thread piqued my curiosity, so I took a look:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Blockade

 

Now I understand better what led up to the blockade - and the subsequent airlift - and why the Soviets were letting air traffic through while blocking ground traffic. This is all stuff about which I would not have given a rat's ass 25 years ago.

While I was aware of the blockade / airlift, it seems the history books I read in school omitted one little fact:

While it may be overly simplistic, it comes down to the USA breaking an agreement with the Soviet Union as the cause (or at least the excuse) of the blockade (at least according to the wiki).

[Francois_Dumas]

Lack of knowledge on history usually feeds lack of understanding of many things..... I hated history too, in my highschool time, at least in the 'school sense' of it... being forced to learn all sorts of 'happenings' and their 'dates'. THAT wasn't very interesting.

 

But in the end we were lucky here I guess, in that we WERE forced to learn a lot of stuff initially. Being 'part' of some of it helped a lot too, of course.

 

We see the same 'omission' in our current school system with current generations again.... iPods and Heavy Metal are more important than knowledge and understanding it seems. But then again, perhaps that is true for any generation.. only the 'tools' change

[Albert]

Tim,

I don't disagree with your assessment of our lack of historical "awareness". To me it's a symptom of a more pervasive problem in this country. Education. You will, in my estimation, find equally woeful gaps in American's grasp of mathematics, the sciences and literature among others. Our society seems to want learning in the form of a pill. That way we can just hold our nose and take it.

[Dennis Andress]

Tin soldiers and Nixon coming,

We're finally on our own.

This summer I hear the drumming,

Four dead in Ohio.

[motoguy128]

Not so incredible as it might seem..... I know of a few youngsters around here that now know zilch about the 2nd WW, OR the Korean War for that matter..... incredible to me, but not to them.

 

That's pretty sad, that living in the Netherlands, a country that was forceably occupied by the Nazis for what, 6 years? has a generation that knows nothing about that time in history. I believe nearly half of Rotterdam was destroyed.

 

I think WWII is easier to forget in the US, but in Europe, everyone was directly impacted and there is still physical evidence of it. You have to travel to Hawaii to see any real evidence in the US. I remember being in downtown Dusseldorf a few years ago and noticing that most of the buildings were clearly built in 1950's style. A reminder that the city was practically leveled by the allies 60 years earlier.

[Francois_Dumas]

I agree, sad indeed

[Quinn]

I never really thought much about history until I got to college and had a teacher who was less interested in dates than in the causes and timeline of events. I remember a week on the differenct splits in the Christian religion; i.e. Martin Luther, Church of England, etc. The protestant movement had to come before so-and-so could borrow enough money to finance such-and-such, which lead to the discovery of somewhere-or-other.

 

It would be interesting to see a new history book and find out their take on Vietnam. Wonder why they think we were there? I never did find out.

 

 

[mickey05]

Chalk it up to the 5 minute rule.

[brennaman]

While I was aware of the blockade / airlift, it seems the history books I read in school omitted one little fact:

While it may be overly simplistic, it comes down to the USA breaking an agreement with the Soviet Union as the cause (or at least the excuse) of the blockade (at least according to the wiki).

 

And some would demonize the US and her allies for thier actions. But we did it for the right reasons, a suppressed German economy was not good for Europe. We made a mistake with JCS 1067, and the Morgenthau plan, so we broke an agreement for the greater good. I do not think Europe would have had the success it has for the past 60 years if we had not done what we did.

[SageRider]

...so we broke an agreement for the greater good...

Greater good of whom?

Small wonder that the Soviet Union distrusted the USA.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

...so we broke an agreement for the greater good...

Greater good of whom?

Small wonder that the Soviet Union distrusted the USA.

 

Greater good of the whole world. The USSR didn't want a strong Germany because they feared future aggression - which, in the 60 years hence, has not materialized.

[SageRider]

...so we broke an agreement for the greater good...

Greater good of whom?

Small wonder that the Soviet Union distrusted the USA.

 

Greater good of the whole world. The USSR didn't want a strong Germany because they feared future aggression - which, in the 60 years hence, has not materialized.

"Greater good of the whole world."?

Obviously not the greater good of the Soviet Union.

One could make the case that the broken agreement was what lead to the downfall of the Soviet Union. It apparently became the starting point of the cold war, which eventually bankrupted the Soviet Union.

Is this better for the whole world? We'll never know...

It does amaze me what a history this country has of breaking it's word.

[brennaman]

One could make the case that the broken agreement was what lead to the downfall of the Soviet Union.

 

Now I never lived under soviet rule, but I was able to go behind the wall into the old east Germany. There was no question which society I would have rather lived under, (and quite a few others that risked thier lives to get out of there). The downfall of that system in my eyes was a good thing.

[SageRider]

...The downfall of that system in my eyes was a good thing.

I am not disagreeing. I really don't have the education / background to judge.

It is probable that a significant number of Soviets would have disagreed.

[Huzband]

One could make the case that the broken agreement was what lead to the downfall of the Soviet Union. It apparently became the starting point of the cold war, which eventually bankrupted the Soviet Union.

 

Communism is what bankrupted the Soviet Union. It fails every time it's tried.

 

...The downfall of that system in my eyes was a good thing.

I am not disagreeing. I really don't have the education / background to judge.

It is probable that a significant number of Soviets would have disagreed.

 

So if you don't have the education/background to judge, how do you surmise that a significant number of Soviets would have disagreed?

 

For a time in the late eighties, I worked for a man from Germany. He escaped through the underground during Hitler's early reign, & was able to get his wife out a couple years later. I was working for him when the wall was torn down. He made a trip back home, & when he returned, his story was quite moving.

 

He had gone back to his home village, & visited many of the places that were familiar to him as a boy. One place in particular was a bakery. He a had gone there on almost a daily basis as a child in the early forties. When he returned in the late eighties, the same shop owner was still there. And the village looked EXACTLY the same!

 

Don't talk to me about the broken promises the US has been guilty of.

[brennaman]

So if you don't have the education/background to judge, how do you surmise that a significant number of Soviets would have disagreed?

 

For a time in the late eighties, I worked for a man from Germany. He escaped through the underground during Hitler's early reign, & was able to get his wife out a couple years later. I was working for him when the wall was torn down. He made a trip back home, & when he returned, his story was quite moving.

 

He had gone back to his home village, & visited many of the places that were familiar to him as a boy. One place in particular was a bakery. He a had gone there on almost a daily basis as a child in the early forties. When he returned in the late eighties, the same shop owner was still there. And the village looked EXACTLY the same!

 

Don't talk to me about the broken promises the US has been guilty of.

 

Amen

[Francois_Dumas]

The downfall of that system in my eyes was a good thing.

 

Be aware that it's not over yet ........

[SageRider]

He had gone back to his home village, & visited many of the places that were familiar to him as a boy. One place in particular was a bakery. He a had gone there on almost a daily basis as a child in the early forties. When he returned in the late eighties, the same shop owner was still there. And the village looked EXACTLY the same!

I'm confused. What is this supposed to prove?

 

...Don't talk to me about the broken promises the US has been guilty of....

How does this relate to the rest of your statement?

Does this statement mean that you do not believe the USA should stand by it's agreements?

 

[SageRider]

So if you don't have the education/background to judge, how do you surmise that a significant number of Soviets would have disagreed?

If no one else, the members of government and industrial production who had a vested interest in keeping the system going I feel would have disagreed.

In addition, no population is ever unanimous about anything, so a certain percentage would also have been expected to disagree.

 

What I don't have the education or knowledge to judge is whether or not the Soviet Union was as bad as our U.S.A. educational system would like us to believe. Rarely are one's enemies portrayed in a favorable light. Does this mean I'm a lover of the Soviet Union and it's method of government? No.

All this means is that I've only heard one side of the story, and, since I will most likely never hear enough of the other side of the story to get a representative picture, I am unwilling to condemn out of hand.

[tallman]

It is very doubtful that a "significan number" of Soviets would have had the correct information available to make a reasonable decision about anything dealing with foreign policy.

The entire Soviet system was censored and information controlled by the state.

Yes, the was Radio Free Europe/Voice of America/Freedom broadcasting, but maps, books, news, newspapers, all were full of lies, distorions, and misinformation.

Immediately after WWII, the average Soviet was reeling from the staggering cost of the war and interested in self preservation, not policy.

When the system fell, educators in the Soviet Union were dismayed to find out that the "History" they had been teaching was inaccurate, full of misreresentations, and that they had misinformed generations of students.

To question the rationale/correctness of the Berlin Airlift in the context of the world today is a poistion much different from the time it happened.

We were still taking in the horro of the Holocaust and the idea of more people being isolated, starved, lacking proper medicines, etc, was a bit too much to endure.

[SageRider]

I have to apologize here. I let myself get sucked into an argument over the merits of the Soviet system. I have no interest in continuing the argument which in any case is immaterial to the original statement I made and the overall topic of the Berlin airlift.

 

I do believe a nation must stand by it's agreements to maintain it's credibility. When one unilaterally breaks it's agreements, one cannot be trusted. The excuse of it being a nation that is not governed in the approved manner is just that. An excuse.

I find it sad that so many appear to believe that keeping one's word to other nations is so unimportant.

[brennaman]

Sometimes nations, just like people, when they realize a mistake they have made, should correct it and do what is right. Standing by a wrong decision is not allways the right thing to do.

[doc47]

Greater good of the whole world. The USSR didn't want a strong Germany because they feared future aggression - which, in the 60 years hence, has not materialized.

 

 

"I love Germany so much I thank God there are two of them." Victor Borge

[g_frey]

I agree with you mostly. Here at my university history changes depending on who teaches it. I find it interesting how people who never fought are experts at the history of war etc.. I would rather have one of my dead back than a multitude of these people. As I read their traitorous rantings I wonder what they would say if they had actually fought in one of the unjust wars they criticise? The trouble is they infect our students with their views.

[Dennis Andress]

History is best judged by the people who experienced it..

 

My mother was born in 1936, in Berlin. When she was 6 my grandmother took the kids to a Hitler rally and mom gave him a bouquet of flowers and shook his hand.

 

The last time I told that story in her presence she interrupted me and proudly declared that she also shook Eisenhower's hand.

 

When Berlin fell to the Russians my grandmother escaped with her children to Ost-Friessland, near Bremen I believe. My grandfather joined them after he was released from an American POW camp. So, the Berlin Airlift wasn't something she experienced first hand.

 

 

[millbert]

I was lucky to have grown up in the "West End" of Sault Ste Marie On. - I'm sure some people reading this heard of it.

After WW II , many Europeans settled here.

A lot of them were D.P.s -Displaced Persons -at the time it was a derogatory term,but that's what they were.

 

W.O.P.'s - With Out Papers , later that turned into a derogatory term for Italians.

 

Buy the time I was 16 , I could swear in 5 languages !!!

 

So, with all these nationalities,learning European history was a must.

Lots of stories....Since then I never had a " failure to communicate".