Car of the Future on Nova

[steveknapp]

FYI:

 

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/car/program.html

 

The discussion of plug in hybrids included a ChallengeX car. Which uses the software tools developed by the company I work for.

 

So far an interesting show.

[Jerry_75_Guy]

Thanks for that Steve!

 

My wife and I planned on watching, but tuned in late, missing the first ~15min; the link solves that problem

 

And I agree; very interesting show, and the the Magliozzi brothers are favorites of mine anyway

 

Being a builder of a composite plane, I took special interest in the carbon fiber car body construction segment, and it also turns out that engineering students here at my school have refitted a Prius with better batteries and hardware like cars on the show, so as to have the capability to charge from wall sockets, and also deliver 100mpg economy.

[Aluminum_Butt]

Thanks, Steve. That's cool stuff.

 

I'm intrigued by the plug-in hybrids. Personally, I think that is going to be one of the key ways for the US to reduce its need for foreign energy. Personally, I'm more concerned about that than climate change. However, looks like both areas may see benefit.

 

However, I had no idea it was so difficult and/or research-intensive. Seems like the batteries are there - just need more of them. I'm still a little unclear as to exactly what problems the folks from UC Davis are having to solve.

 

I guess it's also clear that battery storage technolgy is going to be a key technology going forward. Anybody knowledgeable about that? What's on the horizon? Is it going to be like RAM - the size of the old 64k chip is now the size of the 1GB chip?

[RonStewart]

I enjoyed the show, but it ignored the battery-electric cars that GM, Honda and others had on the road in the 1990s, that were documented in the fascinating film Who Killed the Electric Car?

[steveknapp]

I guess it's also clear that battery storage technolgy is going to be a key technology going forward. Anybody knowledgeable about that? What's on the horizon? Is it going to be like RAM - the size of the old 64k chip is now the size of the 1GB chip?

 

A friend of mine is working on one of the possible battery management systems for the Chevy Volt, the Tahoe Hybrid before that. It's a bit amazing all that's involved in manging the pack. It's not as easy as putting some more batteries in series, IF you want the reliability and safety to be there. More so for LiIon.

 

He said the Tesla was basically a bunch of 'laptop batteries'. Big and probably won't meet the longevity requirements someone like GM would have.

 

As far as the battery technology, I think it's something of a different game compared to memory from a technology perspective. But having said that, we might just be at the early part of that curve, where the gains are smaller than we would like.

 

If you were interested in battery makers, A123 and AltairNano would be good places to start for Lithium Ion.

 

Ron, I enjoyed "Who Killed the Electric Car" as well, but what's frustrating for me in things like that is when folks who are passionate about something, which is good, think something is easy that isn't. Then when it's not done they blame some conspiracy.

[RonStewart]

If the Wikipedia summary is right, and I think it is, the "Who Killed the Electric Car" filmakers came up with this verdict:

 

Consumers — Guilty

Batteries — Not Guilty

Oil companies — Guilty

Car companies — Guilty

Government — Guilty

California Air Resources Board — Guilty

Hydrogen fuel cell — Guilty

 

So, it was not really presented as a a conspiracy. Still it seems odd that they said the batteries were not to blame. The sad part of the story was that the cars were destroyed and the drivers were not allowed to buy them.

 

Anyway, I think Nova should have mentioned those cars.

[DiggerJim]

Current lead-acid deep cycle batteries are up to the task for 90% of most people's driving needs (<75 miles/day) and even a bit more if you can plug in during the day. In the world of electrics, lead=power but the more weight, the more power you need so it's a vicious cycle.

 

But people won't believe that and want to know they can haul off and do 300 miles which is why hybrids probably will take off well before the pure electric does. On a strictly economic basis, if you thought of the # of times you needed the big car, you'd probably be better off with a smaller, cheaper, lighter more fuel efficient one with an occasional rental for the longer trips.

 

LiOn are great power/weight ratios but big $. Doable but not likely to save any dollars over an ICE (although that was pre-$4/gal gas...haven't done the calcs lately).

 

I've got a Fiero project that I'm doing with my kids - pulling all the gas bits and turning it into a full electric. Top speed should run about 90mph with a 60-70 mile range. (Going with a 144V pack.)

 

Battery & charging management is somewhat tricky - you can't just lay a charger on them. The individual batteries and the cells in each battery are all just a bit different and take up the charge slightly differently. Badly managed your pack life drops like a rock or worse - explosions, fire, etc. The charging system is the 3rd most expensive piece of hardware (behind the battery pack & motor).

 

But, although it'll work for me for commuting or local trips, a 4 seater would make more sense for most and lots of folks have done conversions of older (read: lighter) Civics, Rabbits, etc.

 

Jim

[steveknapp]

But people won't believe that and want to know they can haul off and do 300 miles which is why hybrids probably will take off well before the pure electric does. On a strictly economic basis, if you thought of the # of times you needed the big car, you'd probably be better off with a smaller, cheaper, lighter more fuel efficient one with an occasional rental for the longer trips.

 

For me the fear is more that my trip, which I thought was <70mi, is longer. Or because of cold weather, needing A/C, or lots of hills, my range drops. I'm doomed, needing a tow right?

 

Plus my experience with local rental shops hasn't always been the best and I don't want to plan my life that much honestly.

 

That's what I think is great about the series hybrids. You get some of the best of both worlds.

[motoguy128]

I don't see why we need to dive into all electric just yet. We already have a very well established infrastructure for IC engine refueling, so lets keep moving in that direction and get the parallel benefits of letting battery technology mature. Add plug-in capability to hybrids, and contine to reduce engien sizes as battery and electric motor technologies improve.

 

One of the best application I see for electric motors is AWD capability and towing heavy loads with a much smaller powerplant. You need torque not nessesarily HP to get a heavy load moving.

 

The first big hybrid movement I'd like ot see, is Toyota to take the new Venza (Camry Wagon) and make a hybrid powered taxi. Taxi's spend most of their time at low speeds and idling. As gas approaches $4, the increased capital costs of a $25k Venza vs. a big $19k Ford Crown Vic. will be offset by fuel costs.

 

Mabe a V6 hybrid version for Law Enforcement so they have the extra power but still get fuel savings.

 

I think Ford could do the same with the Taurus X and Taurus. GM needs to consider an all new full size platform with hybrid capability. They could probably share it with Cadillac as well.

[RonStewart]

There are lots of Prius cabs in Vancouver. I took one last week. A bunch of luggage had to ride in the cab, though. The Vanza would be better for the airport runs, but the Prius is okay for in-town operations.

[DiggerJim]

For me the fear is more that my trip, which I thought was <70mi, is longer. Or because of cold weather, needing A/C, or lots of hills, my range drops. I'm doomed, needing a tow right?

Actually no. It's not like with a gasser where you run out and suddenly stop. You get plenty of warning as it goes slower, so you can pull into a shop have a bite to eat and see if they'll let you plug in for an hour or so. Or simply park it and grab that bite and it'll have more juice when you get back out as the battery recovers its charge - when was the last time your gas tank got fuller by itself? The scenarios you fear don't really happen in day to day life though. Most people have a very consistent routine and as long as you're not trying to squeeze exactly the range out of the batteries everyday, you'll likely have plenty of juice for the side trip for groceries or a run out for lunch, etc. My commute is 34 miles round trip everyday - a 70 mi range is more than sufficient.

[russell_bynum]

But people won't believe that and want to know they can haul off and do 300 miles which is why hybrids probably will take off well before the pure electric does. On a strictly economic basis, if you thought of the # of times you needed the big car, you'd probably be better off with a smaller, cheaper, lighter more fuel efficient one with an occasional rental for the longer trips.

 

For me the fear is more that my trip, which I thought was <70mi, is longer. Or because of cold weather, needing A/C, or lots of hills, my range drops. I'm doomed, needing a tow right?

 

Plus my experience with local rental shops hasn't always been the best and I don't want to plan my life that much honestly.

 

That's what I think is great about the series hybrids. You get some of the best of both worlds.

 

I agree. Plus, with a rental, you often can't tow a trailer, you can't go offroad, you can't install your accessories, etc.

 

If you just need to rent something once in a while for a specific task, and you don't mind dicking with the rental people (always a pain) then it's fine. But what I would want is a second vehicle...a commuter, and my weekend/trip/errands car.

 

I do like the idea of an electric commuter. I would need it to get at least 200 miles on a charge, though. And ideally, I would want to use solar at the house to charge a battery during the day while I'm at work, and then discharge that into the car's battery overnight. And it would need to do that for less money than what I'm currently doing (driving a $300 POS that gets 30mpg on the low-grade gas.)

[steveknapp]

pull into a shop have a bite to eat and see if they'll let you plug in for an hour or so. Or simply park it and grab that bite and it'll have more juice when you get back out as the battery recovers its charge - when was the last time your gas tank got fuller by itself?

 

All this 30 miles from home when I want to be somewhere? Driving around looking for a plug? No thanks.

 

The scenarios you fear don't really happen in day to day life though. Most people have a very consistent routine and as long as you're not trying to squeeze exactly the range out of the batteries everyday, you'll likely have plenty of juice for the side trip for groceries or a run out for lunch, etc. My commute is 34 miles round trip everyday - a 70 mi range is more than sufficient.

 

Depends on how it does in stop-and-go, in the cold, with the heat on. Or in summer with the AC on. It's not uncommon here to spend 2hrs a day, or more, in traffic. In the winter, you want heat, and your batteries aren't doing as well.

 

Nevermind the weekends. "Hey, my bike broke down, can you pick me up" "No, the rental place closed and the car won't go that far".

 

Actually no. It's not like with a gasser where you run out and suddenly stop. You get plenty of warning as it goes slower

 

Depends on the battery technology, no? You still have some sort of fuel gauge as well was my understanding. Don't know about the Homebrew stuff.