Should American Airlines be rescued with public funds?

[steve.foote]

First, I'll admit that this could easily be viewed as shameless trolling, but that is not my intention here.

 

Following on the heels of the Bear Sterns rescue by the Federal Reserve, I'm curious if those who supported that action would also support the possible bailout of AA?

[SageRider]

Don't know if they need bailing out....

Should be interesting to see the effect all the cancelled flights have on short term jet fuel inventories and prices....

[keithb]

I think it is shameless trolling. They are one of the few airlines that have not gone into bankruptcy. They are solvent and their is no need for any kind of bailout. The issue you are hearing about now is not a safety issue but an issue of ties or clamps being placed around wire bundles in the EXACT same place on every plane.

[chrisolson]

Well, its all the rage, so why not.

 

The recently passed Senate $6-billion tax break to the home-building industry would allow builders and other businesses affected by the housing slump to charge off losses this year and next against taxes paid for the four previous years, instead of the two years currently allowed. So, even though the builders and others made great profits during the run up, they now deserve a tax break against those profits

 

Of course this is in no way a reaction to the National Association of Home Builders January cessation of all congressional campaign contributions after a tax break like the one in the new housing bill was dropped from an earlier economic stimulus package.

[David]

First, I'll admit that this could easily be viewed as shameless trolling, but that is not my intention here.

 

Right.

 

Maybe it's just me, but it seems lately that you're turning this forum into your own talk radio show, so to speak.

[subvet]

Following on the heels of the Bear Sterns rescue by the Federal Reserve, I'm curious if those who supported that action would also support the possible bailout of AA?

 

yes, and we should do it next week....I think they might be my chance at the best fare to Seattle the week after next.

[lawnchairboy]

ask Lee Iococca.

[f86sabre]

The issue you are hearing about now is not a safety issue but an issue of ties or clamps being placed around wire bundles in the EXACT same place on every plane.

 

Exactly right. The service bulletin that is involved leaves a good deal to be desired. This lead to the mechanics having to interpret things and you get slight variations. The fact that FAA took lumps over the South West deal has pushed them into a mode of being a bit over aggressive. AA will sort out their issues.

[David]

Here's what they sent me today:

 

ackground: : In 2004, American Airlines was the lead airline working with Boeing to develop a Service Bulletin to correct wiring exposure and chafing in the MD-80 auxiliary hydraulic pump wire bundle. The concern was that exposure and chafing could cause fire in the wheel well. An Airworthiness Directive (AD) was issued in September 2006, giving MD-80 operators, including American, 18 months to address this issue. American completed the Service Bulletin in November 2006, followed by adjustments deemed necessary by American's structural engineers to comply with the AD well ahead of a March 2008 deadline.

 

In recent weeks the Federal Aviation Administration significantly increased its emphasis on monitoring the adherence to Airworthiness Directives that apply to various U.S. airlines. With respect to American Airlines' MD-80 fleet, we had a detailed issue that we believed had to be addressed immediately to remain compliant with the FAA; if found in non-compliance, we would have been instructed to stop flying our airplanes.

 

What is the specific nature of the issue?

The issue surrounds questions raised by the FAA about the way American implemented the Engineering Change Order (ECO) addressing the MD-80 auxiliary pump wiring Airworthiness Directive (AD). American fixed the item well within the specified AD timeframe. The work being done now centers on a need to change the way in which American complied with the AD regarding such items as the spacing of the ties on the wiring bundles and the direction of the retention clips and lacing cords. We are highly confident that this is not a safety of flight issue because the wire bundle is secure. It is a matter of how the work was done, not whether aircraft were protected from the threat of wire exposure and chafing that could cause fire.

 

Why ground the entire MD-80 fleet?

It became clear based on the number of questions the FAA raised that there would be a high percentage of aircraft that would not be found to be in full compliance of the Airworthiness Directive. Working with the FAA we were unable to find an alternative solution to regaining compliance – for example, a multi-day period to rectify the issues – so we had no choice but to ground the aircraft. While it has been a major disruption to AA's operation, everyone recognizes the need to ensure that the MD-80 fleet is in complete compliance and is working to restore the MD-80s back to service as quickly as possible.

 

Who is completing the work and why is it taking longer than the previous MD-80 inspections?

There are three levels of American employees accomplishing the work. American has assigned a team of employees – aviation maintenance technicians, quality assurance inspectors, and engineers – to inspect the aircraft and ensure full technical compliance, as well as to make any additional adjustments. As our aircraft return to service, the FAA is inspecting those aircraft to ensure compliance.

 

What is the airline doing for customers?

We are doing everything possible to take care of our customers as expeditiously as possible while facing the fact that our resources have been stretched to their limits. We are extremely sorry for the inconvenience and know that this kind of interruption of travel plans is unacceptable. While customers are dislocated we are providing meals, hotels and ground transportation; for those stranded overnight, we will offer vouchers for future travel on American Airlines. Customers who were inconvenienced with overnight stays can go to AA.com where a link will guide them to instructions on how to receive compensation.

 

What is the company doing to make sure it doesn't happen again?

American plans to contract with an independent third party to review American's compliance processes. This work will help ensure that all procedures strictly adhere to the technical elements of every directive so American can avoid this type of schedule disruption in the future.

[Skywagon]

I have an A&P with IA privledge. For those not familiar with the designation, it is license to work on airplanes and powerplants and the authority to inspect and authorize the work in accordance to FAA and Mfg standards and return the aircraft to service.

 

The prior post talks about the AD, the work AA did and then return the aircraft to service. The part that is confusuing for me, is prior to an AD being issued by the FAA, the FAA sends the engineering drawings and what needs to be done to be compliant months before compliance is required to seek additional expert advice or possibly alternative engineering considerations. Once the time limit has expired to respond, the FAA will issue the AD. The AD usually gives the aircraft owner enough time or hours such that they can do the AD when the aircraft is in for routine maintenance, without having to take it our of service for just the AD. The exception is if they think the AD is of an emergency nature and they can order the AD to be immediate.

 

There have been times when examing AD's from the FAA I haven't fully understood what they want, however you can get a local FAA official to come to the sight and show you, or inspect your work prior to returning the aircraft to service.

 

First off I use my certificates only for the purposes of working on my personal airplane and to do annual inspections for a few friends. I have never used the certificates on a commercial basis nor do I need or intend to.

 

I am sure there are some variations to my story for the big iron, but I would think the airlines have even better access to FAA inspectors than me.

 

I love AA and am a platnum card holder, but I find it amazing they did the whole fleet before they got an interpretation from the FAA. They took a risk, it didn't pay off. No hard feelings, but I sure as hell don't feel like I owe any tax/bailout/ money.

 

Just my simple humble biased opinion.

[ericfoerster]

They have been in some rough spots before and made it out. My guess is they can do it again.

AMR sure is a cheap buy right now.

[Marty Hill]

Hey Eric,

 

I flew on AA one time. Do I get a bailout?

[BFish]

IMO the fed didn't "bailout" bear stearns. more than likely the fed will make some scratch out of this deal.

[Matts_12GS]

Maybe it's just me, but it seems lately that you're turning this forum into your own talk radio show, so to speak.

 

Seems like a nice counterpoint to the rest of the static on many of these issues though.

 

</hijack>

[Ken H.]

Not the original question, but this particular crackdown on compliance with this particular AD is nothing more than showmanship to the public. The FAA got embarrassed by the SW debacle, now they feel they've got to crack the whip somewhere to make a big show that they are on top of things. AA's MD-80's just happened to be the convenient victim.

 

Never in a 1000s years is the spacing of bundle claps of 5 7/8", 6" or 6 1/8" (or whatever) going to materially effect the airworthiness of the aircraft.

 

And of course the flying public buys it hook, line & sinker. The bubble-headed bleach blond on the local news at the airport has no trouble finding the air traveler in line saying, "Well between having to put up with some delays or dieing in a crash, the choice is rather obvious."

 

So much posturing for so little reason. When did sensibility go out the window?

[steve.foote]

Maybe it's just me, but it seems lately that you're turning this forum into your own talk radio show, so to speak.

 

Honestly, David, I can see how you could come to that conclusion, but it isn’t what I am trying to do here. Let me try to explain. Please keep in mind that these are my thoughts and feelings, and may not be completely in line with reality nor what is popular.

 

Since 9-11, I’ve seen changes in our country and throughout the world which I never imagined possible. In my opinion, some have been changes for the good, but a lot have been for the worse. In our country, I am particularly disappointed in what I perceive as a flight from accountability. Repeatedly, I am seeing a trend of shifting responsibility for ones actions as a company, agency, or individual, to others who have no control over those circumstances. And, frankly, this bothers me.

 

As we all go through life, we have to make decisions and course corrections based upon the realities we face. It is easy to do when the future is clear and steady, but it is not so when the crystal ball is murky, and it’s as murky as I have ever seen it. Even though I have the good fortune being able to discuss these topics with some pretty smart folks here in Savannah, I find it much more educating to hash these topics out with the national and international audience found here. I get perspectives here that I might not hear in my local discussions.

 

My use of topics like this, as well as the nutrition and food threads while discussing healthcare, are to explore the boundaries and center of where we are. For example, though it seemed like nationalized healthcare was drawing significant support, there didn’t seem to be much support for nationalized ‘anything else.’ This tells me that most of those who so vigorously supported it, on behalf of those without coverage, probably were more interested in getting some kind of benefit for themselves. By proposing seemingly ridiculous expansions of those programs, expansions which would have continued to benefit the uninsured at the expense of everyone else, it became clear that helping the uninsured wasn’t at all what the driving force was, which in turn, suggests to me that my own strategies in life are still on the right track.

 

Corporate welfare is a whole different animal. The Bear Stearns episode broke new ground with regard to the Fed. Maybe it was the right decision. Or, maybe we just let the camel’s nose into the tent. Only time will tell. I don’t have a clue where the limits and center are on this subject, but I am interested in learning where they are, as I have other decisions to make which will be influenced by what I learn.

 

So far, the discussion in this thread has been pretty defensive, mainly due to my poor choice of a subject line. I didn’t intend to suggest that AA was in financial trouble and is in imminent need of a bailout, but based upon the competitiveness of the industry, it’s history (especially since 9-11) and the fact that so many other airlines are struggling, it is not difficult to imagine that as a possible outcome. AA is a major player in our economy, and if it were to fail, it would most definitely cause significant ripples throughout the entire country, which many here (yourself included) agree was the justification for the Fed stepping in regarding investment houses. If this becomes the accepted method of correcting these kinds of problems, then that could be some pretty useful information when making long-term financial plans.

 

I hope that makes some sense. It is hard to lay out one’s thoughts in a written forum without the benefit of immediate feedback.

[Ken H.]

First, I'll admit that this could easily be viewed as shameless trolling, but that is not my intention here.

Right.

 

Maybe it's just me, but it seems lately that you're turning this forum into your own talk radio show, so to speak.

To come to your defense for a second Steve (hard to imagine, I know), I'm not sure I understand this whole concept of "trolling" in general when someone wants to open a discussion/thread on most any new topic. This particular forum is, "Riders Discuss Other Topics" after all. Within the guidelines we all agree to abide by, most notably 'no politics' by participating, why is any subject out of bounds?

[smiller]

For example, though it seemed like nationalized healthcare was drawing significant support, there didn’t seem to be much support for nationalized ‘anything else.’ This tells me that most of those who so vigorously supported it, on behalf of those without coverage, probably were more interested in getting some kind of benefit for themselves. By proposing seemingly ridiculous expansions of those programs, expansions which would have continued to benefit the uninsured at the expense of everyone else, it became clear that helping the uninsured wasn’t at all what the driving force was

The only thing 'clear' in your example is how use of absurd hyperbole can lead to a fallacious conclusion.

[David]

No, it doesn't make sense, Steve. What you've clarified is my contention initially. With your most recent explanation, you seem to be seeking real discussion and learning. What it looks like, though, is Steve Foote starting thread after thread to further an idealogical platform.

 

Now I happen to agree with some of the things you believe, so that's not the issue. Rather, it's that this crap in "Riders Discuss Other Topics" is no more discussion than what you find on a radio talk show (thus the earlier reference). It's ideological blather that is so expected that I could actually sign in as you and espouse things so predictably that no one would know the difference. Ken's interaction is largely in that category too, but at least he doesn't start these threads much.

 

Hey, do what you want. I willingly gave up the keys to this place and with it any accompanying authority. But I would provide a historical reference, here, and remind everyone that this forum was started reluctantly and it was meant as a place "to discuss," not drop ideological sound bites that did little more than polarize positions on the right and the left.

 

If you guys keep it up (and the moderators continue to let this occur with not much shaping or evident leadership), you will be largely responsible for losing "the middle" in these discussions, because people like more aren't going to hang out here any more.

 

Besides, it's a bit disingenuous to claim that you really want to learn when you've told me personally, face to face, that you like to get people riled up in this forum.

 

Maybe I just need to lower my standards/expectations about this place. I've long felt like you could have a genuine discussion here like few other places on the net. But we're losing ground in some key areas on that front, my man, and you're part of the problem.

[Jerry_75_Guy]

Not the original question, but this particular crackdown on compliance with this particular AD is nothing more than showmanship to the public. The FAA got embarrassed by the SW debacle, now they feel they've got to crack the whip somewhere to make a big show that they are on top of things. AA's MD-80's just happened to be the convenient victim.

 

Yeah, that was my take as well.

 

And of course the flying public buys it hook, line & sinker. The bubble-headed bleach blond on the local news at the airport has no trouble finding the air traveler in line saying, "Well between having to put up with some delays or dieing in a crash, the choice is rather obvious."

 

Welcome to my world

It's become cliche among aviators, regardless of experience level, how poorly the media covers aviation issues, and consequently, the absymal level of understanding that the average lay person has of commercial aviation. I chanced acrossed Bill Maher's (sp, ?) program on HBO the other night just in time to hear them discuss the AA maint. issue, and got a sour chuckle out of his, and is panel's, suprise that newhire pay at Part 121 commuter airlines was only $19k/yr, and all of the various negitive implications of such a pay structure.

 

Granted that it was ~12yrs ago, but when I started at a Part 121 commuter, my first year pay was only $15k.

 

Throw in the extreme insecurity inherent in the profession and industry as a whole, and the fact that, unlike just about every other industry, should a pilot move over to a new company, they'll lose all seniority, and start back at the bottom of that company's payscale, and you have a recipe for a swell career

[Dave McReynolds]

This tells me that most of those who so vigorously supported it, on behalf of those without coverage, probably were more interested in getting some kind of benefit for themselves. By proposing seemingly ridiculous expansions of those programs, expansions which would have continued to benefit the uninsured at the expense of everyone else, it became clear that helping the uninsured wasn’t at all what the driving force was, which in turn, suggests to me that my own strategies in life are still on the right track.

 

I can't speak for anyone else here, but I will qualify for Medicare in a little more than a year, and have pretty good insurance coverage between now and then. I don't know of anyone in my immediate family who isn't covered by some kind of health plan. The reason I believe in nationalized health insurance is because I think it's the fair thing to do.

 

To throw one back at you, my impression of your reasons for opposing national healthcare is that you're afraid that healthcare might not be as readily available to you under a national plan. You know that the same resources will be available overall as before, but they will be allocated to include some people who are excluded now. Rather than live under a plan where the available resources are allocated where they will produce the most benefit, you would prefer that those without access to healthcare continue to go without access, so that you can selfishly continue to buy healthcare at your convenience with your $$.

[Kitsap]

Never in a 1000s years is the spacing of bundle claps of 5 7/8", 6" or 6 1/8" (or whatever) going to materially effect the airworthiness of the aircraft.

 

Direct conditions of flight safety are usually propagated by seemingly unrelated conditions. It's been true in the past and will continue to be so in the future.

[velomoto]

... Besides, it's a bit disingenuous to claim that you really want to learn when you've told me personally, face to face, that you like to get people riled up in this forum.

C'mon David, if you keep this up we might not get to "discuss" abortion, prayer in school and any numver of the other "non-political" topics. Frankly, looking at a number of recent threads, I'm not sure where the line is drawn between political and non-political in BMWST. I suppose politics is like pornography "you'll know it when you see it!" Hey, wait there's another non-political thread!

[velomoto]

Never in a 1000s years is the spacing of bundle claps of 5 7/8", 6" or 6 1/8" (or whatever) going to materially effect the airworthiness of the aircraft.

 

Direct conditions of flight safety are usually propagated by seemingly unrelated conditions. It's been true in the past and will continue to be so in the future.

From an engineering perspective I agree 100%, but unfortunately our government (FAA, Homeland Security, etc.) hasn't exactly been doing so well of late. Lets see here we've had the TSA protect us by confiscating breast milk and twesers, and refusing to allow a woman to pass thru security until she removed her nipple ring (which required pliers to "open"). Homeland Security can't seem to get ANYTHING right (read: where does one begin with such a long list) and continues to be a huge sucking sound of our tax dollars.

 

Personally I'm more concerned with someone's laptop battery shorting during a flight and catching fire. This has come close to happening - the person was in the jetway getting ready to board when the laptop began to smoke so they could get the computer into the terminal before it burst into flames.

[David]

... Besides, it's a bit disingenuous to claim that you really want to learn when you've told me personally, face to face, that you like to get people riled up in this forum.

C'mon David, if you keep this up we might not get to "discuss" abortion, prayer in school and any numver of the other "non-political" topics. Frankly, looking at a number of recent threads, I'm not sure where the line is drawn between political and non-political in BMWST. I suppose politics is like pornography "you'll know it when you see it!" Hey, wait there's another non-political thread!

 

It's not what so much as how it's discussed.