What is Democracy?

[DavidEBSmith]

I ran across this article positing that Chicago is about to take over the country (heh-heh) and containing this observation on the democratic (small-d) process:

 

[Chicago is] a terrific city, though lagging some on the technology sector. The trains run on time. It's just that there's nothing like democracy or respect for opposition points of view.

 

I remember a story that a local Seattle politician once told me, comparing Seattle and Chicago. "In Chicago, the mayor gets all the important stakeholders on a big issue around the table. He tells them that they all have a voice, but that some will lose. Behave well as a loser (or winner) and you'll be invited back. In Seattle, by contrast, the same group is assembled and the mayor or other leader will say that they all have a voice and that we won't reach a decision until everyone is happy with it. No one will lose."

 

Which city would you want to live in?

 

Is democracy (a) ensuring that everybody has a voice in the process or (b) ensuring that everybody is happy with the outcome?

[steve.foote]

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for dinner.

[Lets_Play_Two]

I ran across this article positing that Chicago is about to take over the country (heh-heh) and containing this observation on the democratic (small-d) process:

 

[Chicago is] a terrific city, though lagging some on the technology sector. The trains run on time. It's just that there's nothing like democracy or respect for opposition points of view.

 

I remember a story that a local Seattle politician once told me, comparing Seattle and Chicago. "In Chicago, the mayor gets all the important stakeholders on a big issue around the table. He tells them that they all have a voice, but that some will lose. Behave well as a loser (or winner) and you'll be invited back. In Seattle, by contrast, the same group is assembled and the mayor or other leader will say that they all have a voice and that we won't reach a decision until everyone is happy with it. No one will lose."

 

Which city would you want to live in?

 

Is democracy (a) ensuring that everybody has a voice in the process or (b) ensuring that everybody is happy with the outcome?

 

I am not sure we have ever had (a) in this country, but I believe that much of what has gone wrong lately is because of trying (b). I lived in Chicago during the Richard J. era and he certainly got things done unlike the two or three immediate successors, Bilandic, Byrne or Washington.

[Matts_12GS]

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for dinner.

 

* A Constitutional Republic: Voting on dinner is expressly forbidden, and the sheep are armed.

* Federal Government: The means by which the sheep will be fooled into voting for a Democracy.

* Freedom: Two very hungry wolves looking for dinner and finding a very well-informed and well-armed sheep

 

price of liberty

[randy]

I have been to both cities, Seattle never, to much rain, Chicago only between May 1 - Sept 15. chicogo is one of the best cities during this time. I do not think there is a good season in Seattle.

 

Now, as for democracy, while the story is cute, it appears to me neither is the definition or implementation of democracy.

 

On the other hand what is the definition of anything these days. Last week someone in the elevator said, 'we are in a recession" I calmly (very had to do) asked the person what is the definition of a recesion (by the way there is one) and they said "whever the economy is not growing" I noted Jan, & feb the economy grew, it was small but it did grow, they then said, ok "when the economy is not growing strongly" so playing along I said, "what is strongly" at that point the elevator hit the ground floor and they headed off to lunch. My point, they had no idea what the definition of recession is, nor did they have any idea what their own definition was. They just liked the word.

 

I find the word democracy like recession. Very few people actually understand there is a definition, and even if they want a different one, they have not even taken the time to put thier definition into written words. It seems they do not want to, that way they can change the definition any time they want. i.e. Global warning, is now Global climate change. that way it can be anything you want it to be at any moment, without having to make your idea's stand up to scrutiny.

[smiller]

Is democracy (a) ensuring that everybody has a voice in the process or (b) ensuring that everybody is happy with the outcome?

Normally the correct answer is A, although in an election year it's B.

[leikam]

The mayor gets all the important stakeholders on a big issue around the table [...] Behave well as a loser (or winner) and you'll be invited back.

Do the poorly behaved become unimportant or lose their stakeholder status?

 

The answer on which city to live in (weather aside) is Chicago if your mayor is in office and Seattle if he isn't. It's rather like a question of whether you support the secret police or not: neither answer is ideal and everything depends on which way the wind blows.

[Steve_Witmer]

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for dinner.

 

Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote -- Benjamin Franklin

 

Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard.

H.L. Mencken (1880-1956)

 

Democracy is the worst form of government except for all those others that have been tried.

- Winston Churchill

[Joel]

... but I believe that much of what has gone wrong lately is because of trying (b).

 

+1. Leadership requires making hard choices. It doesn't require a ramrod, but if nothing can get done until after the last chorus of Kum Ba Ya, then it seems likely that nothing can get done.

[lawnchairboy]

"Being responsible sometimes means pissing people off"

 

Colin Powell

[Couchrocket]

Interesting subject. I suppose a "pure" democracy is where everyone gets a vote, they all count, and 50% plus 1 vote holds sway. The two wolves and lamb is often an apt analogy for what happens in pure democracies, human nature being what it is. We live in an age where most people in the U.S. think this is how we were designed to operate. I find that odd, but given the state of education in America I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

 

We founded a republic, not a democracy. And I'd say, "mostly" for good reasons.

 

These days, the republic seems to be wheezing, though, and each of the two major parties participating have created enough rules of how they operate to raise obfuscation to a very high art form indeed. A plague on both their houses.

 

But I digress.

[leikam]

The government in the US does function in some ways on the "pure" democracy model -- although at times the threshold for declaring a decision may be higher than merely 50%+1. Take for example the US congress, the US Supreme Court, State legislatures and many city councils. Each member gets one vote and the majority carries the issue. It works when you don't have too many people voting and those who do realize a common interest (or at least the necessity) in working together. When the wolves today realize that they may be sheep tomorrow, some might reconsider the dinner menu.

[Whip]

What is Democracy?

 

 

Whatever Mama-Hoon says it is.

 

[Couchrocket]

You're forgetting that the City Council members are elected representatives of "the people" and their "majority vote" theoretically represents the wishes of their constituents. That is nowhere near a pure democracy. It is "representative" government, more on the "republic" model.

 

The government in the US does function in some ways on the "pure" democracy model -- although at times the threshold for declaring a decision may be higher than merely 50%+1. Take for example the US congress, the US Supreme Court, State legislatures and many city councils. Each member gets one vote and the majority carries the issue. It works when you don't have too many people voting and those who do realize a common interest (or at least the necessity) in working together. When the wolves today realize that they may be sheep tomorrow, some might reconsider the dinner menu.

[ghaverkamp]

That is nowhere near a pure democracy. It is "representative" government, more on the "republic" model.

 

I believe the democracy-inclusive terms are "direct democracy" and "representative democracy."

[Couchrocket]

Thanks Greg (this is where thumbs up would be inserted).... exactly right, me thinks.... my brain ain't working that well today.

 

That is nowhere near a pure democracy. It is "representative" government, more on the "republic" model.

 

I believe the democracy-inclusive terms are "direct democracy" and "representative democracy."

[Bud]

Funny that you should mention Chicago.

 

/ rant on

 

In Illinois we have the best government money can buy. Don't believe it? More Illinois Governors have gone to prison than any other state.

 

All three legislative offices can not pass a budget, can not agree on anything as a matter of fact. They are not representing the people who elected them. The Gov was flying from Chicago to Springfield on the state chopper at the tune of $5000 per day when the legislature was in "overtime" this summer as they had failed to pass a budget by June 1.

 

The current Gov is under investigation by the Feds. Justice will be served when he is a cell mate with the previous Gov who just went to the big house a few months ago. Sent him to WI federal prison.

 

 

 

/rant off

[leikam]

Sure, they're on the city council (or in Congress) as representatives and they're put there by the constituent population. My point is that once elected and in the decision process of the city council itself, it's one person one vote and majority rules. Decisions are (usually) not arrived at by drawing pistols at dawn or simply because one person wills it so. No, you and I don't vote on every bill brought before the legislature or every treaty that crosses the president's desk and thank goodness for that. But democratic processes (what you were calling "pure" democracy) do have their role in the functioning of the US government.

[Les is more]

Watch the partisan politics, please!

[DavidEBSmith]

Les, it's not partisan politics in Illinois to say we have a terrible governor who will probably end up in jail. Republicans, Democrats, Independents, Libertarians, Socialists, LaRouchies, we're all united on that one. (He's running at 16% approval in the polls).

[notacop]

Where the rich get richer and the middle class and the poor think it's a great idea!

[Les is more]

I know and agree Eebie.

 

You'll note that I edited Bud's post.

[Bud]

Watch the partisan politics, please!

 

Sorry, just got a little hot headed thinking about the sorry state of politics in Illinois.

 

I should have mentioned that the previous Gov now in jail was from the "other" party. We do believe in equally poor government here, no matter what the party.

[RonStewart]

In Chicago, democracy is tearing up a world-famous airstrip in the middle of the night, in violation of several laws, at the mayor's sole discretion.

[Bud]

In Chicago, democracy is tearing up a world-famous airstrip in the middle of the night, in violation of several laws, at the mayor's sole discretion.

 

Couldn't agree more.

 

Like many elected officials, he thought he was above the law. Didn't even have to use "signing statements" to do it.

[steveknapp]

He's not the one going to jail, now is he?

[Kitsap]

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for dinner.

 

And the lamb has the right to bare arms

[hootowl]

Where the rich get richer and the middle class and the poor think it's a great idea!

 

I'm afraid there is [a ruling class in America]. I don't think it serves democracy well... The ruling class is the rich who really command our industry, our commerce, our finance. And those people are able to so manipulate our democracy that they really control our democracy, I feel.

– Walter Cronkite, from The American Ruling Class (2005)

[steve.foote]

Where the rich get richer and the middle class and the poor think it's a great idea!

 

I'm afraid there is [a ruling class in America]. I don't think it serves democracy well... The ruling class is the rich who really command our industry, our commerce, our finance. And those people are able to so manipulate our democracy that they really control our democracy, I feel.

– Walter Cronkite, from The American Ruling Class (2005)

 

I wonder if Walter Cronkite feels the same way about Journalism?