How has experience changed your view of what's right or wrong?

[steve.foote]

This is a subject that I’ve been exploring for a while. Over the years, I have detected, within myself, gradual changes in what I consider to be right or wrong. A hardening of certain beliefs and a softening of others. And, while I feel very comfortable with my own view of right and wrong, I find myself more frequently at odds with what I perceive to be societies view. So, I’m curious, how have your experiences in life changed the way you view what is right or wrong?

[Boffin]

I think I am more cynical of the motives of those in positions of power than I used to be. I am also much less black & white in my worldview, grey is more likely.

 

Andy

[Paul_Burkett]

I don't want to sound too simplistic and to some, they may say worse, and that's fine, but I feel that after over 45 years of reading the bible, I know what is right or wrong on most things. The world views will change and perspectives as well, but there are 10 laws that can cover most of the problems in life and although they are sometimes hard to adhere to, they work for me. So, the world can can spin and gyrate, but I like to stick to rules that don't change with what is perceived as "Politically correct". Solomon said "there is nothing new under the sun" and I think he was correct, things are just repackaged and sold as new ideas.

However, as I have aged and hopefully matured, my adamant fist pounding days are fewer and farther between and I find that the world views change faster than ever before and I've decided that I can't change the world, I can only change who I am.

[hANNAbONE]

bEAUTIFULLY sPOKEN, Paul...my sentiments exactly.

[upflying]

When I questioned a decision, my boss said to me, "doing what is right is not necessarily the right thing to do". In other words, there is right and wrong and then there is the political spin of what is right and wrong. Unfortunately, politics is part of every decision making process.

[Francois_Dumas]

When I questioned a decision, my boss said to me, "doing what is right is not necessarily the right thing to do". In other words, there is right and wrong and then there is the political spin of what is right and wrong. Unfortunately, politics is part of every decision making process.

 

Yup.

I used to be, and am, a pretty stubborn character..... some would call that inflexible. I have always stuck to what I felt was right and NOT always done what was right for the situation, or ME. It ultimately has cost me my career. In hindsight, I probably was shortsighted in wanting to HAVE that career in the first place. It was all about power and money, ultimately.

 

Now I have neither, but I know I was right..... and I still can enjoy life, perhaps even more.

 

I would never have been able nor willing to admit the above without my 55 years of life experience

[philbytx]

My life experiences have shaped them but not changed my basic core beliefs in right and wrong. I am still touched and humbled by a "one good man" event which really helps to keep my optimism at the fore.

 

However, life really is about change and I find it easier to change MYSELF these days. Oh! And I still love to challenge any argument for the status quo

[tallman]

When you're always right, experience will not change one's views.

[steve.foote]

When you're always right, experience will not change one's views.

 

Finally! Someone who understands.

 

Seriously, though, I'm facinated with the responses so far. I'm going to listen for a while more than start responding with some questions and maybe some examples of what my thoughts are.

[notacop]

To be really simplistic, as a kid I watched a Disney movie about Davy Crocket. In it he said "Be sure your are right then go ahead." I thought that was good. "To thy own self be true" was another that made sense. Reading the Egyptian Book of the Dead about how a man should be toward others, predates the same goodness the Bible professes, makes sense to me also. 61 years of watching the world from the sidelines makes me cynical too. Always hope for the best though. I love to find the rediculous in situations. My glass is always half full not half empty. And, I'm usually full of Sh-t! Never take yourself seriously.

[Rob_Mayes]

When I was five years old I stole a little rubber eraser from a small store. My mother made me return it and apologize to the owner. I remember it well and it sunk into me very deep. Throught-out the years I have worked many jobs including retail and have never taken product or cash. I learned that there is no justification for stealing. I really discourages me on how our society has come to expect bait and switch, fraud, and outright theft and embezzelement. so many people do it, businesses do it, and our govenments do it..

[upflying]

When I questioned a decision, my boss said to

 

Yup.

I used to be, and am, a pretty stubborn character..... some would call that inflexible. I have always stuck to what I felt was right and NOT always done what was right for the situation, or ME. It ultimately has cost me my career. In hindsight, I probably was shortsighted in wanting to HAVE that career in the first place. It was all about power and money, ultimately.

 

Now I have neither, but I know I was right..... and I still can enjoy life, perhaps even more.

 

I would never have been able nor willing to admit the above without my 55 years of life experience

 

Yup, there is a word for people like you and me, curmudgeon. I also damaged my promotional career from my stubborn disposition and caustic sarcasm. It sure was fun though.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/curmudgeon

[exwingnut]

To paraphrase Firesine Theater..."Everything YOU know is WRONG!"

 

I have certainly come to embrace the fact that I indeed do not know diddly and have no right to tell others what they hold as truth to be wrong just because I disagree. Yes, murder, mayhem, theft, and adultry are still no-no's, but when it comes down to opinion based decisions I have really retreated from telling others they are full of stuff.

 

The 'grey zone' just keeps getting wider and wider.

[steve.foote]

Interesting comments. Many of which mirror my own feelings. Let me give you a couple simple examples of what is driving this subject.

 

When I was young, J-walking was a huge no-no. It was drilled in my head by my parents that you only cross at cross walks when the light is green. Well, a dozen years later, for me, the importance of that rule had changed significantly. Now days, I simply cross when and where I want while not giving a whit about whether it's right or wrong, according to the wishes of society. Some probably bristle at my defiance, but I could care less.

 

Another example, passing on double yellows. Prior to my reentry of riding motorcycles in 2001, I would never have considered passing on a double yellow. Honestly, I never really gave it much thought. It was a rule, and the rule was to be followed. After reading quite a bit of debate about the engineering and construction of roadways, combined with my own observations, I began to rethink my slavish devotion to this particular rule. While I don’t consider myself a habitual violator, it’s possible I may have violated this law a time or two based upon conditions and my own judgment that it was safe to do so. I do understand that it is in fact against the law, but it’s a law that I have become prone to disagree with at times.

 

There are other examples, but I think you get my drift here. It’s this change of paradigm which interests me. I know people my age who still wouldn’t consider J-walking. What kinds of experience drive these different results in various people?

[Dave McReynolds]

Another timely example. When I first began in the tax business, in the '70's, the rate of non-compliance with the voluntary compliance tax system was estimated to be about 2%. Now the rate is estimated to be about 20%, which drives the IRS to devote it's resources to increasing reporting at the source: 1099's, W-2's, 1098's, W-2G's, etc. The IRS is now divided into essentially two parts: computer programs that send out massive amounts of bills to people who don't report something the IRS has on its computers, and agents who look for more sophisticated civil or criminal tax dodges. What has been greatly reduced are the audits of the mom-and-pop operations to make sure that the nickles and dimes are accounted for. I haven't been called in on what used to be called "office audits" for any of my clients in about 2 years.

 

So, following the example of our European friends, we have drifted away from the voluntary compliance model to one where the IRS casts its nets in different waters to see what can be caught.

 

I believe when I was young, the average person felt a moral obligation to report his taxes accurately, whereas now the feeling has shifted to reporting only what has to be reported in order to avoid even bigger problems down the road. Interestingly, tax rates were higher then than now.

[bmwscoot]

Steve,

 

I AM NOT making judgments here, just an observation from an old coot....who has broken a few of those speed and double yellow laws (OK, jaywalking, too).

 

I too, have been taught right from wrong at an early age. Things were black and white back then, huh?

SO SIMPLE!

 

It is my observation through the years that the black and white has now many shades of grey. My generation has questioned "authority" since oh... Viet Nam per se. Black is never black, and white.... never white.

 

That is to say that to me, it seems that now we are willing to dis-obey things we were taught "back then". Question authority. Make our own "educated" judgments afa if we should obey things we have been taught...or not. Whether to obey even traffic laws...or not.

 

Doesn't it seem in our permissive society that now it is only wrong to do things when we get caught?

Many are not even willing to "fess up" to our wrong doings when caught. You know, like..."what the h*ll was that radar cop doing THERE? Doesn't he have better things to do than catch ME speeding...go catch a rapist or something.

 

So for me, it all started back in the late sixties when I started to question authority...when we do that, all bets are off.

 

Where the h*ll am I going with this....?

get my drift, anyway?

[Pilgrim]

My ideas about right and wrong were shaped early. I don't think I was 20 yet before I began to discern between moral laws (right and wrong) and "rules" that grease the bearings of squeaky human interactions. They are called laws, too, but they aren't, really. That doesn't mean, though, that I don't think a lot of them are important.

 

The difference is that you go jail for breaking rules; you go to hell for breaking laws.

 

What has changed for me over the years is my attitude toward breaking the rules. I was pretty strict about that, too, until I was well into my forties (speed limits and yellow stripes aside), but now my internal question is this: "Where's the harm?" If I can't find it I'm pretty flexible in my response.

 

Hurt a child though, and I'll be willing to throw the switch on you pretty damn quick to hurry you along to your appointment with Satan. Take that as a limited example of a larger proposition.

 

Pilgrim

[tallman]

Steve,

Experience has shown me there is a difference between what is "legal" and what is "right".

And, what is "illegal" and what is "wrong".

I know right from wrong.

I know what is legal and illegal (except for that screwy boilerplatelawyerystuff).

I try to always do what is right.

Right and wrong haven't changed.

Legal/Illegal has changed, and will continue to do so.

Culture and Societal influences will always move the boundaries.

BTW, I find it very difficult to jaywalk.

[Quinn]

My world view is that everyone is the hero of his own world and everyone creates his own world. Nobody thinks of him/herself as a "bad" person.

 

So how do I think people justify doing "bad" things? That's the second part of my personal world view. I call it the expected level of cheating. At most office jobs, people make free copies, take home paper clips, maybe browse motorcycle sites, and take personal phone calls. All are the normal, daily routine and nobody thinks of these activities as cheating unless questioned. We could include J-walking, passing on a double yellow, etc. as other activities that are below the cheating radar for a lot of people. In their world, maybe the need to get across the street outweighed the need to obey the law and walk down to the corner before crossing.

 

What happens is that some peoples "expected level of cheating" exceeds that of others. As an example: we had several people transfer into our area from up North. After two had been fired, we found out that they had been disconnecting the speedometer cables on their company cars on weekends and driving home to Philly without paying personal mileage. Were they bad people? Were they crooks? My personal philosophy is that they just had a higher expected level of cheating than we dumb grits. If you'd questioned them, I'm sure they were suprised that anyone was upset about the speedometer cables because they thought everyone did it--just like sending faxes or making copies with the office machine.

 

By viewing the world through those slightly rose-colored glasses, I try to see the other person's side of things. I still have trouble understanding how someone can think it is okay for them to zip down the turn lane and then cut back in to get five cars ahead at a traffic light. I also don't know how anyone can justify shooting a random person to join a street gang.

 

So, when I see questionable behavior, I just wonder what that person was thinking and why they thought it was okay for them to do it.

[tonyla]

Interesting: not one person mentioned "THE GOLDEN RULE"

Bout covers it for me!!

[Bheckel169]

Experience is some of it. Certainly, our pathological decline has to be taken into consideration. The older we get, the more entrenched we become in our thinking. Conservatives get more conservative, liberals get more liberal. Age is part of this equation. There's not a lot of flexibility as we get older. It's part of our growth in the form of age. Ask your grandparents.

Bruce

[DaveTheAffable]

I don't want to sound too simplistic and to some, they may say worse, and that's fine, but I feel that after over 45 years of reading the bible, I know what is right or wrong on most things. The world views will change and perspectives as well, but there are 10 laws that can cover most of the problems in life and although they are sometimes hard to adhere to, they work for me. So, the world can can spin and gyrate, but I like to stick to rules that don't change with what is perceived as "Politically correct". Solomon said "there is nothing new under the sun" and I think he was correct, things are just repackaged and sold as new ideas.

However, as I have aged and hopefully matured, my adamant fist pounding days are fewer and farther between and I find that the world views change faster than ever before and I've decided that I can't change the world, I can only change who I am.

Well said, Paul.

 

How far is it to Cleveland, Ohio? I guess it depends on your starting point.

 

When it comes to right and wrong, lot's of people select 'movable' points of reference. And in most cases it isn't that "right or wrong" has changed, but our tolerance or intolerance of doing what we KNOW is right.

 

Each has a consience, and society did not put it there. It is pressed upon by society, but not created by society.

 

As for the jaywalking example, it is no more or less wrong. You're tolerance of doing something that people you once thought wise, told you was wrong, has increased.

 

As long as society continues to have a "flexible" view of right and wrong, we will continue to flex ourselves downward.

[steve.foote]

Alright! These last eight responses are the kind I've been looking for. Good stuff. I need some time to bake it, but I'll be back tomorrow with some thoughts.

 

Keep 'em coming.

[keithb]

What a coincidence. I was reading the 3 previous posts and I was literally thinking "how about the Golden Rule" and then read your post. Great minds think alike, right? Hee, hee.

[Boffin]

Interesting: not one person mentioned "THE GOLDEN RULE"

Bout covers it for me!!

 

You mean "He who has the gold makes the rules"?

 

To give a little more depth to my response.

 

I have learned through life that there is a difference between being moraly correct, "right" and obeying the rules, "obedient".

 

As a child I pushed the limits of the rules, as children do. This, together with received wisdom, formed my moral compass. Then my parents divorced and I blamed my father, shutting him out from my life.

 

In my teens I was shocked to learn that some of my peers had very different moral compasses. I could not understand why they despised others for no reason beyond the colour of their skin, why they felt violence and intimidation were the right way to gain advantage. I stood up to those and got bloodied noses and bruised ribs but I knew I was right. I still do, but I wonder how I would react in todays world where such defiance is likely to get you a knife in the ribs.

 

I joined the RAF, where I learned how to bend rules without breaking them, to work with the system to my advantage rather than try to fight it. I learned how to be less "obedient" whilst keeping within acceptable bounds. I spent some time on 'Jankers'.

I met the girl who has been my wife these past 33 years and I learned to love. I forgave my father and, after too many years started to build a relationship with him. Just as I came to know him, my father died and was buiried on my 26th birthday.

 

Now I am in my middle age, I still know right from wrong but I am more flexible in what is, or is not, "right". I still feel that violence for it's own sake is immoral. I am still sure that loyalty is fundemental to human interactions. I am more willing however, to forgive trangressions where I can see that they are due to human frailty, not willfull actions.

I have learned there are no absolutes in human behaviour. Even the most evil have moments of kindness, the most pious moments of darkness. Most of us fall between these two extremes.

 

In my youth I was certain of almost everything. Now I am certain of almost nothing, and I am the happier for it.

 

Andy

[Calvin (no socks)]

Steve, as a youth, when wisdom was shared with me by older people, I filed it away for a later day. As I aged I retrieved the lessons and began using them, along with my own experiences, to live right. If my number is up tomorow, how will anyone know I was here........ by the footprints I have left on the souls I have known.

Pass wisdom along.... it will leave a mark.

 

Thanks Grandpa.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

The older we get, the more entrenched we become in our thinking. Conservatives get more conservative, liberals get more liberal.

 

Actually I recall hearing a long time ago that people tend to move toward the conservative end of the spectrum as they get older. People will attribute this to different causes - bitter cynicism, acceptance of reality, etc. - but my understanding is that it's been pretty well documented.

 

As for the Golden Rule - well, that works great if everyone follows it, but the sad fact is that not everyone does, and the GR will come up short in dealing with such folks. Carl Sagan delved into this matter in the last book he wrote before he died, citing (in addition to the Golden Rule) the Silver Rule, the Brass Rule, the Iron Rule, and finally the Tit-For-Tat Rule.

[Bud]

As the recipient of the grace of God (grace being defined as the "unmerited favor of God") I'm less likely to try to throw stones at others.

 

I believe that evil exists in the world and this fact explains how humans can be so cruel to each other. There is no other explanation for the genocide taking place even as I type.

 

I believe that right and wrong are not relative, but are sometimes difficult to distinguish and practice.

 

I believe I sometimes rationalize my behaviors to excuse doing what I know is wrong.

[tallman]

Steve, as a youth, when wisdom was shared with me by older people, I filed it away for a later day. As I aged I retrieved the lessons and began using them, along with my own experiences, to live right. If my number is up tomorow, how will anyone know I was here........ by the footprints I have left on the souls I have known.

Pass wisdom along.... it will leave a mark.

 

Thanks Grandpa.

 

Calvin,

I respect your Grandpa's intention, but, a wise woman once said, "knowledge can be transmitted, wisdom cannot".

I can share what I perceive as my words of wisdom, such as they are, but they are not really wisdom to my audience. To my listener, my words are merely knowledge. If/when they encounter a situation and use the words as reference, and then evaluate the outcome, process it internally, and use the combined experience of my words and their actions, then it may become part of their individual wisdom. (I think this is what you were saying)

Having knowledge does not ensure one is wise.

Having knowledge and acting in a manner consistent with accepted mores (right) may lead to wisdom.

But, so may the opposite. Having knowledge and acting contrary to accepted mores (wrong) may also lead one to wisdom.

So, if one can gain wisdom by doing either what is right or wrong, or both, should a wise person, or one interested in gaining wisdom, even care if their actions are perceived as right or wrong?

Or should they act in a manner consistent with the wisdom they have acquired?

[KDeline]

I don't want to sound too simplistic and to some, they may say worse, and that's fine, but I feel that after over 45 years of reading the bible, I know what is right or wrong on most things. The world views will change and perspectives as well, but there are 10 laws that can cover most of the problems in life and although they are sometimes hard to adhere to, they work for me.

 

 

And that is how the extremist feel about the karan(?). So they are right to? My experience has changed my view of religion. To me it is the single most reason people and the world are so screwed up.

[g_frey]

Doing what is right has cost me several jobs. Oh well.

[g_frey]

The last time I lost a job I was objecting to a Dean's interesting way of hiring people (force the faculty to sign a paper supporting his choice). I got zero support from the other faculty, but I notice 7 years later that all but one have left that department! Some wanted to come work for me but I told them I was more interested in hiring people with guts.

[Les is more]

Now I am in my middle age, I still know right from wrong but I am more flexible in what is, or is not, "right". I still feel that violence for it's own sake is immoral. I am still sure that loyalty is fundemental to human interactions. I am more willing however, to forgive trangressions where I can see that they are due to human frailty, not willfull actions.

I have learned there are no absolutes in human behaviour. Even the most evil have moments of kindness, the most pious moments of darkness. Most of us fall between these two extremes.

 

In my youth I was certain of almost everything. Now I am certain of almost nothing, and I am the happier for it.

 

Beautifully stated Andy.

 

Combine that with Calvin's

If my number is up tomorrow, how will anyone know I was here........ by the footprints I have left on the souls I have known.

and you pretty much have the things that shape my attitudes and behaviors toward others.

[Ken H.]

Andy pretty much sums up what I also would reply. There is no true right or wrong, black or white, because it's all defined by perspectives. Both our own and society's as a whole. And both are always changing over time. Personally, as I've aged I think I've become more liberal, more tolerant of individual human's personal weakness and more conservative, less tolerant of society's weaknesses.

 

The more convinced we are that we are absolutely right, the more likely it is that we are wrong.

[Whip]

How has experience changed your view of what's right or wrong?

 

Lets see......first I would like to say how nice and politically correct everyones answers have been. I'm very impressed.

 

My life experiences have taken me down a different path than most of ya. I have never played by anyone's rules, when I say that I don't mean The Law. I mean someone else's idea of how to live, how to make money, and how to treat others.

 

I believe there is an infinite amount of $$ in the world and you don't beat someone out of theirs to get some for yourself.

 

At this point in my life things are more black and white than ever.....but there is now a third choice.

 

I don't care!!!!!

 

I have spent too much time showin others you don't have to copy someone else to be successful.

 

Maybe I should write a book.

 

 

Anyway........Right........Wrong .......and I don't care......... is all you need to know.

 

 

BTW......How many days till Torrey?????

 

 

 

 

 

Whip

[hANNAbONE]

And that is how the extremist feel about the karan(?). So they are right to? My experience has changed my view of religion. To me it is the single most reason people and the world are so screwed up.

 

 

tHAT'S tOO bad, ken....sad to hear that comment...

[MotorinLA]

This is a subject that I’ve been exploring for a while. Over the years, I have detected, within myself, gradual changes in what I consider to be right or wrong. A hardening of certain beliefs and a softening of others. And, while I feel very comfortable with my own view of right and wrong, I find myself more frequently at odds with what I perceive to be societies view. So, I’m curious, how have your experiences in life changed the way you view what is right or wrong?

 

It is interesting to look back at things I learned as a child/teen and see how much of it is not as set in stone as my ‘teachers’ portrayed it. Not only things like J-walking, but things like our history and our society in general. In my first 12 years of school I mostly accepted what was taught as being ‘true’. As I became older, attended more school and became exposed to more information and different views, I came to realize that everything depends on the eye of the beholder. History as taught in school is simply someone’s version of what happened in the past, not what actually happened. What we know about the mind and its workings is vague at best. The list goes on and on.

 

As far as right and wrong, I think I have become more cynical and more rigid (Yes, I know this comes as a surprise to anyone has read any of my previous posts… ). While I understand many of the views here about individual freedom, I also see the opposite side of the coin, which is the preservation of public safety. There have been many threads on this board about traffic laws and I think this thread is much broader in perspective than that, however, analogies to traffic laws sometimes work to prove a point.

 

In my opinion, failing to obey traffic laws is not so much about right and wrong as it is about putting one’s own interests before the interests of others. People I stop for traffic violations often tell me that they failed to do what they were required to do by law, because their personal need conflicted with that law (i.e. “I needed to go the other way”, “I’m in a hurry”, “I didn’t want to turn there”, “I looked around and saw it was safe”, “There was such a long wait”, etc.). Traffic laws are put in place to create safety for people on the roadway by creating predictability. It should be ‘safe’ for you to drive across the intersection when the light is green, because you predict that traffic in the other direction will stop for the red light. When people drive in an unpredictable manner, the risk to that driver and others on the road increases. Are there times when behaving in an unpredictable manner on the road causes no increased risk? Sure. However, when you use your discretion to decide when to follow the rules, you leave more room for error.

 

The same concept of putting one’s own interests before the interests of others can be applied to most crime. I remember arresting my first robbery suspect, who pistol-whipped his victim and then stole his video game station. When asked why he did it, the suspect replied, “Well, he had two [video game stations], he didn’t need two.” It was clear from the rest of the interview that the suspect had no remorse about the crime, other than the fact that he got caught. In his view he hadn’t done anything ‘wrong’. His view of right and wrong came down to the concept of the strong and the weak. It was his ‘right’ to take another person’s property, if that person was not strong enough to protect himself. Again it comes back to putting self interest before caring for others.

 

It seems to me that as you get older you may apply more critical thinking to things and as a result sometimes see a reduced need to abide by “the rules/laws”, because you question their necessity or validity. Unfortunately (for those that want more individual freedom), most laws are there to bring order to masses of people, not the individual, but this is generally accomplished by gaining (or attempting to gain) compliance from as many individuals as possible.

 

So, although many of my views have changed since I was a child, I think my views of right and wrong have only become more definitively defined.

[smiller]

And that is how the extremist feel about the karan(?). So they are right to? My experience has changed my view of religion. To me it is the single most reason people and the world are so screwed up.

tHAT'S tOO bad, ken....sad to hear that comment...

Why? Because he's wrong, or because he's right?

[leikam]

When I was very young, right and wrong were largely what I was told. As I grew older, I learned to think more about what I had been told and how others justified both their righteousness and their condemnations. One graduate degree later, I had reached some satisfying conclusions about the foundations in ethics. Now, years later, my views on ethics are largely the same and "right" or "wrong" are less important than the quality of my personal relationships -- a very different focus.

[Dave McReynolds]

In my opinion, failing to obey traffic laws is not so much about right and wrong as it is about putting one’s own interests before the interests of others. People I stop for traffic violations often tell me that they failed to do what they were required to do by law, because their personal need conflicted with that law (i.e. “I needed to go the other way”, “I’m in a hurry”, “I didn’t want to turn there”, “I looked around and saw it was safe”, “There was such a long wait”, etc.).

 

I understand your feelings. I have similar feelings about the tax law. People feel okay about cheating on their taxes because they don't agree with our tax system, or they don't like the way the government is spending their money, or they would like to have more money to spend some other way, and don't feel like the government is going to miss whatever they decide to not report.

 

But the fact is, whether it is a traffic law or a tax law, it was put there by our elected representatives, and could be removed by our elected representatives. We agree, on the one hand, to be governed by our elected representatives, but on the other hand, we decide to opt out of any particular laws that we don't want to be bothered with, under our situational morality. If someone's situational morality goes a little further than ours, and they steal money from a house or a store, why that's quite different of course from cheating on your taxes or breaking a traffic law.

 

And, of course, it is quite different, in the sense that our society would crumble if the majority of us expanded our situational morality to a lot more laws. As it is, with our selective application of situational morality to traffic laws, income taxes, and a few other things, it just causes a little rot in the foundation of our society, that hopefully will still support the structure above.

 

Believe me, I'm not trying to hold myself up as any example, here. I make my own decisions about which traffic laws to obey, based more on my own personal safety, my desire to enjoy myself on my motorcycle, and my assessment of the probability of tickets rather than what the traffic law actually says. I don't cheat on my taxes, because it provides me with a good living and the penalties for a CPA cheating on taxes would definitely not be worth it.

 

But I do think that we lose something as a society when its members do not feel a personal ownership of the law, and a responsibility to obey it.

[Fugu]

But I do think that we lose something as a society when its members do not feel a personal ownership of the law, and a responsibility to obey it.

 

If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable. ~Louis D. Brandeis

 

We have entirely too many laws, and too many bad laws to expect that anyone would respect and follow them all.

 

here is no true right or wrong, black or white, because it's all defined by perspectives.

 

I stop short of this view. There is a line out there for me. Typically that line is unseen by the perpetrator of an act (perhaps because they lack the perspective of their victim) but at that point, there is no justification for the action regardless of the doer's perspective. I have very little mercy for people who commit such acts, and every day I find less and less.

 

Meanwhile, I find myself completely rejecting some notions of right and wrong that I was raised to believe. I even find my parents starting to reject some of the things they taught me as a kid as they age. I find myself feeling quite strongly about values that were not important to my parents.

 

If experience hasn't changed your view of right and wrong, you need to experience more.

[MotorinLA]

But I do think that we lose something as a society when its members do not feel a personal ownership of the law, and a responsibility to obey it.

 

If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable. ~Louis D. Brandeis

 

We have entirely too many laws, and too many bad laws to expect that anyone would respect and follow them all.

 

here is no true right or wrong, black or white, because it's all defined by perspectives.

 

I stop short of this view. There is a line out there for me. Typically that line is unseen by the perpetrator of an act (perhaps because they lack the perspective of their victim) but at that point, there is no justification for the action regardless of the doer's perspective. I have very little mercy for people who commit such acts, and every day I find less and less.

 

Meanwhile, I find myself completely rejecting some notions of right and wrong that I was raised to believe. I even find my parents starting to reject some of the things they taught me as a kid as they age. I find myself feeling quite strongly about values that were not important to my parents.

 

If experience hasn't changed your view of right and wrong, you need to experience more.

 

It's nice to know that someone here knows all the answers...

 

Welcome to the United States of Fugu, where you can drive however you want, just as long as you carry a gun and you don't step across the line (whatever line that may be, it's a little fuzzy so far).

 

Seriously though, murder is acceptable to some 'doers', so who decides where to draw the line? Who decides what is respectable? I don't follow your argument on this one.

[steve.foote]

Wow, these have been some really great responses. Many of your postings could have been my own. I’ve been thinking this over all day, trying to figure out the simplest way to explain my thoughts, but I just can’t quite put it in to words at this time. However, I have a couple of observations I’d like to share.

 

As I get older, I find myself aligning my actions more with my own values rather than those considered appropriate by society as a whole. I’m not a consensus kind of guy. Fortunately, most of my values line up nicely with those of our country, so I am usually on the “right” side of the law.

 

I have absolutely no use for arbitrary rules and regulations. Our laws are so numerous and complicated that it is impossible for anyone to really know if they are in compliance. This “rule fatigue” causes people like me to adopt ambivalence towards them. I could consider myself one who values the rule of law, but loathes the laws themselves.

 

I have also grown to despise the nanny state. In the mid-eighties, my wife’s parents were involved in a serious automobile accident and were left mostly uninjured due to their use of seatbelts. That was enough for Silvia and I to adopt their almost constant use. When laws requiring mandatory seatbelt use were passed, my knee-jerk reaction was to stop using them. I know it sounds ridiculous, but I really hate being treated like a child. I see a big difference between a regulating role for government verses a supervising role.

 

The various references to taxes were particularly interesting. I agree with Dave about not cheating on taxes, but I have a clear understanding with my accountant that we take EVERY opportunity to preserve our hard earned income. Everything, that is, within a millimeter of the limit of the law.

 

Finally, I don’t believe that moral’s, values or principals survive anyone’s entire life without some sort of modification. Character is what defines a person, but even that is shaped by the ever changing paradigm of their lives. Like I wrote in the beginning, it is fascinating to me how we evolve throughout our lives and I really appreciate the insight all of you have shown here. I truly believe that it is this unusual openness and honesty which sets this little slice of the web apart from the rest.

 

Thanks!

[bmwscoot]

Steve,

 

Thank You for bringing this up...

 

It's been a good read, especially with another 7" snowfall yesterday....friggin' global warming is p*ssing me off!

 

I think what I have gotten out of this is the huge division between morals/values we have been taught, and actual laws on the books.

 

I can see how we can accept or reject values, but not as much being able to pick and choose which laws are for us to obey, and which ones we need not obey.

 

I find myself leaning towards obeying the laws, or changing them...through representation.

A slow process, but the alternative to that is a bit scary. Do I want to trust some of the morons out there driving around to determine which laws are for them?

 

And when I turn hypocrite, and get caught speeding, etc. I will pay the fine and accept responsibility w/o it being someone else's fault that I got caught. You make your choices, and pay the consequences.

[Pilgrim]

Andy pretty much sums up what I also would reply. There is no true right or wrong, black or white, because it's all defined by perspectives. Both our own and society's as a whole. And both are always changing over time. Personally, as I've aged I think I've become more liberal, more tolerant of individual human's personal weakness and more conservative, less tolerant of society's weaknesses.

 

The more convinced we are that we are absolutely right, the more likely it is that we are wrong.

 

In other words, anything goes. Ted Bundy would be glad to hear that. Pol Pot and Josef Stalin would be glad to hear that. Hitler would be glad to hear that. The pedophile down the street would be glad to hear that. Hell, even Ken Lay would be glad to hear that.

 

According to that thought nobody should ever be punished for anything because his ideas about good and bad are as worthy of respect as anyone else's; he just marches to a different moral drummer.

 

That is a thought typically heard in Philosophy 101. Most freshmen eventually think their way out of it.

 

Pilgrim

[Fugu]

It's nice to know that someone here knows all the answers...

I don't see how that comment or the rest of the first part of your post was at all called for or relevant to this discussion. You want to argue about traffic laws and guns, there are threads for it.

 

Seriously though, murder is acceptable to some 'doers', so who decides where to draw the line? Who decides what is respectable? I don't follow your argument on this one.

 

It's clear that you don't follow. We are discussing our own beliefs about right and wrong and how experience colors them, not the law. Obviously the ideas are intertwined, but the law does not reflect every individual’s ideas.

 

I was responding to comments saying that there is no right and no wrong and it's all perspective. I disagree with that idea. There are issues where there is definitely a right or wrong in my view and it’s got deeper roots than law.

 

A somewhat recent story about a father beating his teenage daughter to death because her clothing did not conform to their religious ideals comes to mind.

 

There is no perspective I can try to identify with that puts the words in a religious text above the life of my own (hypothetical) child. There’s nothing that could make that anything but wrong to me. If I lived somewhere that the law of the land said that was right, I hope it would still be wrong to me. I say hope because I’ve never lived under such law.

[Dave McReynolds]

I hope it would still be wrong to me. I say hope because I’ve never lived under such law.

 

I had similar thoughts when I was in the Marines, and afterwards. The Marines does such a good job at building esprit that you would willingly, eagerly, joyfully, follow orders that might lead to your death, and hopefully will lead to the death of whoever you have orders to attack.

 

I thought about Nazi Germany. What if I were a young soldier there during WWII and one day my sergeant came to me and said, "McSchultz, they need some more guards at a concentration camp, and we're sending you over there for a while." Being a good German, and with at least as good an indoctrination as the US Marines, I would guess, I ask, "What's a concentration camp?" To which the sergeant responds, "It's just a place where they hold Jews and other dissidents. You're lucky! The rest of us have orders for the eastern front."

 

What happens when I get there and find out that it's a place where they kill civilians, en masse? Do I keep my head down and do my duty, or do I object, as so few have done in history, and no doubt get shot? All of my training would support keeping my head down and doing my duty. Compare with My Lai, where the only one to object was a warrant officer helicopter pilot who saw what was going on from the sky! Talk about breaking detachment; there you are, up in the sky, and you land your helicopter to stop an attrocity.

 

I hope, given my natural tendency to be introverted and not automatically join in with group dynamics, that I would object and be shot. I never had to face such a choice while in the Marines, because I had good officers and non-coms who never ordered me to do something I felt was morally wrong. But one never knows until one is there....

[DaveTheAffable]

Views of right and wrong...

 

Feelings about right and wrong...

 

At it's simplest level, where does the CONCEPT of right and wrong come from? It certainly isn't "society".

Where did the Conscience come from that told 'earliest' man that it was "wrong" to:

- Flee in the face of danger instead of defending your family?

- Take another man's food?

- Stand on the edge of a lake and watch someone drown and not attempt to save them?

 

If (as some would have you believe) that it was only survival of the fittest, then doing any of those things would have been okay, in fact encouraged as a means of self preservation. It makes far more "sense" than the concepts of kindness, or compassion.

 

Those concepts did not come from society, because society is nothing more than multiple people. If there were no individuals with CONSCIENCE, then multiple people could not have collaborated on and agreed upon such concepts, and there by giving us community, laws, or codes of conduct.

 

Everyman, everywoman, has a conscience. They can hide it, ignore it, or deny it. But that doesn't change the fact they have it. And, are ultimately accountable.

 

The problem is, we hate the thought of being accountable to the one who gave us our conscience, so denying it or ignoring it seems so much easier... for now.

[MotorinLA]

Fugu,

 

I apologize if I read your post wrong and misinterpreted what you were trying to convey. The way it was written suggested to me that what you were stating was more than just your personal opinion. My mistake.

[Francois_Dumas]

 

Maybe I should write a book.

 

 

Whip

 

 

Can I be your publisher ????