Solid State relay

[ESokoloff]

I'm looking for a schematic or a source for a cheep 12vdc actuated solid state relay with normally open contacts to actuate a garage door remote.

It will be powered by a TLC555 timer with a reported output of 200mA.

It's a continuation of the mess I started here

 

Bonus points for a double pole (if such an animal CHEAPLY exists).

Otherwise I'd be looking at dividing the max. output of the 555 by 1/2.

 

TIA

[RonStewart]

No help, but a caution: Cheap will mean leaky. That is, off doesn't mean really off in SS relays.

[YesMan]

I've purchased various items from here:

 

DigiKey

 

and I think this page might contain what you need:

 

Solid State Relays of all sorts...

[smiller]

No help, but a caution: Cheap will mean leaky. That is, off doesn't mean really off in SS relays.

Yeah, it might be better to just find a standard relay. 200ma should be enough to operate most miniature relays.

[T__]

I'm looking for a schematic or a source for a cheep 12vdc actuated solid state relay with normally open contacts to actuate a garage door remote.

It will be powered by a TLC555 timer with a reported output of 200mA.

It's a continuation of the mess I started here

 

Bonus points for a double pole (if such an animal CHEAPLY exists).

Otherwise I'd be looking at dividing the max. output of the 555 by 1/2.

 

TIA

 

Eric, just use the output to trigger a transistor.. If the circuit current requirement of the opener is low (probably is but measure it)..

 

Or use a transistor to operate your small double pole micro relay..

 

Probably a small micro relay would work but BE SURE to either buy a relay with clipping resistor or clipping diode or add your own as you don’t want the voltage spike of a collapsing relay coil to fry your timer.. (there is quite a back voltage spike possible there on relay power down)

 

Twisty

[ESokoloff]

No help, but a caution: Cheap will mean leaky. That is, off doesn't mean really off in SS relays.

 

Thats why I like A.C./electromechanical.

If I can hold it in my hand, I can figure it out.

 

D.C holds to many F.M.* scenarios

 

*F.M.=frickin magic.

[ESokoloff]

I've purchased various items from here:

 

DigiKey

 

and I think this page might contain what you need:

 

Solid State Relays of all sorts...

 

WOW... YES....MAN, looks like your right, tho my Mac is not letting my see the pdf large enough to see the fine details (could just be operator err).

 

Will look further into this.

Thanks

[ESokoloff]

No help, but a caution: Cheap will mean leaky. That is, off doesn't mean really off in SS relays.

Yeah, it might be better to just find a standard relay. 200ma should be enough to operate most miniature relays.

 

I picked up a micro electromechanical relay at the Shack & found that it made noise if you flicked it with a finger.

This got me concerned about longevity issues due to vibration.

Thus my quest to find a solid state solution.

[ESokoloff]

 

Eric, just use the output to trigger a transistor.. If the circuit current requirement of the opener is low (probably is but measure it)..

 

Or use a transistor to operate your small double pole micro relay..

 

Hi Bill

My (limited) understanding of a transistor is that it would not work for my application.

The TLC555 timer will close two parallel sets of contacts for 5 sec. when I push the turn signal cancelation button (lets call it tscb)

Depending on which door I need to open, I will push the corresponding turn signal for one pulse (then cancel via the cancelation button) to flow past the tscb on its way to power the remote for one of the doors & power an other solid state relay to act as the other remotes switch.

 

Clear as MUD????????

[roydog007]

An optoisolator might work ?

[camille]

Yo, before reading Yesman's reply, I alread did a Digikey search and came up with this list . You can sort by load current, mounting type, vendor, availability, price, etc and get to the data sheets for each relay. Very easy to order from Digikey. Hey, good luck! Sounds like you're having some fun!

[T__]

 

Eric, just use the output to trigger a transistor.. If the circuit current requirement of the opener is low (probably is but measure it)..

 

Or use a transistor to operate your small double pole micro relay..

 

Hi Bill

My (limited) understanding of a transistor is that it would not work for my application.

The TLC555 timer will close two parallel sets of contacts for 5 sec. when I push the turn signal cancelation button (lets call it tscb)

Depending on which door I need to open, I will push the corresponding turn signal for one pulse (then cancel via the cancelation button) to flow past the tscb on its way to power the remote for one of the doors & power an other solid state relay to act as the other remotes switch.

 

Clear as MUD????????

 

Eric, when you say “parallel points” in your timer circuit are you saying those points close together,, or to ground,, or to power?

 

 

You are asking for a “solid state relay” (SSR).. Are you looking for the LED switching type? If so those are probably available at radio shack.. Lots of online suppliers should have SSR’s that should meet your needs also..

 

 

In most cases a transistor will work where a relay will.. There are numerous types & styles of transistors so something should work..

 

 

The good point of a transistor is the very low current needed to get it to switch.. A transistor (or transistors) are also good protection for your timer circuit if you use a mechanical relay as the switch..

 

In any case MAKE DARN SURE your relay (if you use a MECHANICAL one) has suppression (clipping).. A relay (even a small one) has a coil in it & (just like an ignition coil) & that coil in the relay can produce quite a voltage spike as the relay coil collapses on shut down.. There shouldn’t be any high voltage kick back with an SSR so you should be OK there if you go solid state..

 

 

Twisty

[ESokoloff]

Yes I'm sure you are correct but finding the proper one for this task is daunting (to me)

[ESokoloff]

Thanks.

From the link you provided surprisingly I only found a couple that I think will work, but what do I know

 

This one has a max. input of 12vdc so I'd imagine that I could put a resister in series to keep the voltage down????

Also there is a 1.1 ? On-State Resistance that concerns me but it may not be any big deal????

These appear to be photo-coupled. Does that mean absolutely no continuity across device when de-energized.

On of the remotes will be powered via an internal 3vdc battery & a SSR will be in parallel with its activation switch so continues drain would be a concern.

A workaround would be to power the remote via the bike using a step down power supply.

 

I'm I having fun?????

You bet I am......

I love the smell of burning IC's & looking at the wonderful glow shimmering from the back side of a pot

DAMWIK

[ESokoloff]

Eric, when you say “parallel points” in your timer circuit are you saying those points close together,, or to ground,, or to power?

 

 

You are asking for a “solid state relay” (SSR).. Are you looking for the LED switching type? If so those are probably available at radio shack.. Lots of online suppliers should have SSR’s that should meet your needs also..

 

Bill, I'm looking for the solid state equivalent of a DPST N.O. & or SPST N.O. electromechanical relay 12vdc.

If Radio Shack offers such devices, I was not sharp enough to find it/them

[T__]

Eric, check out the Crydom brand SSR’s.. I would think you should use an optically coupled (that is what I would use anyhow).. Optically coupled have some distinct advantages for your usage__ totally decoupled,, very low input current,, very wide spread input voltage,, etc..

 

I thought Radio Shack would have Optical relays but if you couldn’t find one I guess they have totally gone to yuppie cell phones & RC cars.

 

 

I have a Crydom optical in my Honda for a headlight control (3-50 volts in// 0-100v+ switching// 50 amps switching if using a heat sink under it).. You can’t hurt the darn thing & it is totally decoupled from the input.. Only problem it is fairly heavy for a relay of it’s size..

 

Check out the Crydom D1D07L SSR.. Might do what you need.. (link bleow)

 

http://www.crydom.com/products/productFamily.aspx?id=86

 

Sure seems like you could just use a small micro relay (double post if wanted) & trigger that using a transistor controlled by your timer output contacts..

 

Twisty

[ESokoloff]

Check out the Crydom D1D07L SSR.. Might do what you need.. (link bleow)

 

http://www.crydom.com/products/productFamily.aspx?id=86

Bill, never mind the remote... looks like I could power the doors motor with that relay

I'm thinking that this relay...

http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=CLA274-ND

is more applicable to my needs.

The price & size are right, it's just the fine details (12v max trigger input & 1.1ohm resistance across closed points) that concern me.

 

Sure seems like you could just use a small micro relay (double post if wanted) & trigger that using a transistor controlled by your timer output contacts..

 

My reluctancy to using a micro electromechanical relay is a fear of vibration induced failure.

[smiller]

My reluctancy to using a micro electromechanical relay is a fear of vibration induced failure.

There are already several relays on your bike serving much more important functions than a garage door opener. I really wouldn't expect any problem. Just get a mini mechanical relay and be done with it. Simpler, cheaper, and less likely to have unwanted electrical interactions than a solid-state unit.

[T__]

Check out the Crydom D1D07L SSR.. Might do what you need.. (link bleow)

 

http://www.crydom.com/products/productFamily.aspx?id=86

Bill, never mind the remote... looks like I could power the doors motor with that relay

I'm thinking that this relay...

http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=CLA274-ND

is more applicable to my needs.

The price & size are right, it's just the fine details (12v max trigger input & 1.1ohm resistance across closed points) that concern me.

 

Sure seems like you could just use a small micro relay (double post if wanted) & trigger that using a transistor controlled by your timer output contacts..

 

My reluctancy to using a micro electromechanical relay is a fear of vibration induced failure.

 

Eric, that little relay looks like it should work.. 12v in operational but the specs show 15v max so it should work OK.. The price looks good on that unit also.. It’s difficult to add resistance to that low current input side so maybe use a diode between the timer & relay as that will give you a .7 voltage drop regardless of the current load.. (or use a diode on both the input side & input ground side as that will give you 1.4 volts drop across the input LED)

 

As a far as a mechanical relay being prone to vibration,, your bike has mechanical relays in it already.. Also keep in mind the optical part on a solid state relay is pretty solid but most still use movable contact points for the output side..

 

Let us know how your system works out in application..

 

Twisty

[ESokoloff]

My reluctancy to using a micro electromechanical relay is a fear of vibration induced failure.

There are already several relays on your bike serving much more important functions than a garage door opener. I really wouldn't expect any problem. Just get a mini mechanical relay and be done with it. Simpler, cheaper, and less likely to have unwanted electrical interactions than a solid-state unit.

 

The mini relay I got from Radio Shack is not robust enough for my comfort level for long term reliability for this task.

True electro mechanical relays are used in automotive applications, but in general, they are robust & relatively expensive as compared to solid state.

I think a SSR is a better fit for this application.

 

(1) Size is a major concern due to the small space I'm trying to cram it into Access panels to the sides of K1200S nose. I'm sure I could cram a striped down door remote & associated electronics, but a non miniature relay may not fit.

 

 

(2) limited amounts of electron available for this task.

I don't know the exact max. output of the TLC555 timer & I don't want to find it out the hard way. If I had to power a large coil (full size relay) I might have to have a separate circuit power it.

 

 

(3) Cost

The SSR's (two of) I intend to use, costs far less then a robust electromechanical relay's & their associated support circuitry.

[ESokoloff]

Eric, that little relay looks like it should work.. 12v in operational but the specs show 15v max so it should work OK.. The price looks good on that unit also.. It’s difficult to add resistance to that low current input side so maybe use a diode between the timer & relay as that will give you a .7 voltage drop regardless of the current load.. (or use a diode on both the input side & input ground side as that will give you 1.4 volts drop across the input LED)

 

As a far as a mechanical relay being prone to vibration,, your bike has mechanical relays in it already.. Also keep in mind the optical part on a solid state relay is pretty solid but most still use movable contact points for the output side..

 

Let us know how your system works out in application..

 

Twisty

 

Your right about the 15v max. I did not find the data specs. until your post.

However, I'm not comfortable subjecting it to this voltage considering unit has a built in 1k resister & will operate down to 3.75v.

I'm thinking put a .2k resister on it & see what voltage I get, or bread board it using a 14.4 cordless drill battery & using a 1k pot, dial in 10 volts.

Then measure the resistance of the pot & use the appropriate resister on the build item.

 

 

I'm a bit concerned about the on resistance (1.1 ohm) & the off state curreant leakage.

I dont think 1.1ohm is a big deal but the off state leakage concerns me but I now intend to let the TLC555 timer power one of the remotes (with the activation curcuit open to be closed by anouther SSR powered by its asoceated turn signal) & a SSR that will allow power from the other turn signal to dirctly power the other remote.

Sorry, if thats a bit messy

 

 

 

Also keep in mind the optical part on a solid state relay is pretty solid but most still use movable contact points for the output side..

Say it aint so

 

Now I'm not sure what to do....

[steveknapp]

Now I'm not sure what to do....

 

Pick up some info on FETs and do this right?

 

If you really want to make this easy, look at some integrated high side drivers, or if you can switch to ground to do what you need to do, a low side driver.

 

I don't think it gets much easier than this..

 

http://www.infineon.com/dgdl/BTS117.pdf?...112b4398b4f6e26

 

2.62 at digikey

http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=BTS117IN-ND

 

Other options if you can't do the low side drive switch..

 

http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=497-5322-5-ND

 

This has two outputs, I'm sure there is a single variant... oh wait Bonus points for a double pole (if such an animal CHEAPLY exists). Nice! There ya go!

 

http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=BTS621L1IN-ND

 

Literally thousands of these sorts of parts. I tried to pick the first good examples that were through-hole for ya.

[steveknapp]

Is $5 + S/H cheap?

 

let me know if you need help wiring that up.

[ESokoloff]

do this right?

 

Define right.

[ESokoloff]

Also keep in mind the optical part on a solid state relay is pretty solid but most still use movable contact points for the output side..

Say it aint so

 

 

In the case of the SSR of choice, I do not belive it is so.

http://www.clare.com/home/pdfs.nsf/0/7B8386C9F64F3F47852572810042EE06/$file/CPC1218_R03.pdf

• 100% Solid State

• Voltage-controlled operation

• Matches popular reed relay pin-out

• Small 4-Pin SIP Package

• TTL/CMOS Compatible input

• Arc-Free With No Snubbing Circuits

• 2500V rms Input/Output Isolation

• No EMI/RFI Generation

• Immune to radiated EM fields

 

 

Description

The CPC1218 is a miniature voltage-controlled

1-Form-A Solid State Relay in a 4-pin Single In-line

Package (SIP) that employs optically coupled MOSFET technology to provide 2500V rms of input to output isolation. The super efficient MOSFET switches and photovoltaic die use Clare’s patented OptoMOS® architecture. The optically-coupled output is controlled by the input's highly efficient GaAlAs infrared LED and a built-in series resistor to provide input voltage-controlled operation.

[steveknapp]

do this right?

 

Define right.

 

Not to be rude, but I spent at least an hour researching parts, offered some suggestions. Did you take a look? Or did you just stop there?

 

I think your search for a "relay" is sending you down the wrong paths. I admire your hatred for the stupid mechanical things. You want a solid state relay, basically you want a solid state switch. BUT you don't want to tinker with all the muck that goes around it.

 

What you seek is more commonly known as an output driver IC, or a good half dozen other names like "smartFET". These are the devices that live in the ZFE and almost any ECU known to man.

 

Low side drive switches between the load and ground. High side drive switches between battery/supply and the load. Low sides tend to be a bit cheaper among other things. But in low volumes (like single projects) that's not relevant.

 

Without spending another couple hours reading datasheets, the last one would be my pick. It does what it seems you need to do. It's simple, high side drive, AND two channel. The specs reak of it being an old automotive spec device (I've never seen it in a design) and it's plenty robust. It's not a SMD, so it's easier to DIY.

 

Other than lacking the opto isolation, which you *really* don't need IMHO, it's a perfect fit assuming you don't mind the $5 price tag. Oh, if you're going to approach it's current limits (~3.5A) you'll need to at least consider heatsinks. But I thought we were talking about garage door openers and the like here.

 

You might find something cheaper, or smaller, with a lower current rating. I'd be happy to take a gander at other parts you might have in mind if you've got questions.

[ESokoloff]

Some of the devices that you've recommended have only 3 pins & thus are not applicable to my situation as I'm integrating two separate circuits with this SSR.

 

Upon further investigating of the CPC1218, I think it will serve my needs with out longevity concerns.

[ESokoloff]

I apologize for coming across as rude. Truth is I'm on overload with this D.C. stuff & the last comment of Bill's sent me over the edge.

The first device that you recommended was unapplicable for the application & yet you are insinuating that I was not going about constructing this contraption "right".

 

Edit: Damn spell checker

[steveknapp]

In the case of the SSR of choice, I do not belive it is so.

http://www.clare.com/home/pdfs.nsf/0/7B8386C9F64F3F47852572810042EE06/$file/CPC1218_R03.pdf

 

The lower temp spec would keep this out of most automotive designs. Also the specs don't mention anything about the robustness of the output stages of the device. No overcurrent protection or ESD.

[steveknapp]

Some of the devices that you've recommended have only 3 pins & thus are not applicable to my situation as I'm integrating two separate circuits with this SSR.

 

I don't follow.

 

The first device that you recommended was unapplicable for the application & yet you are insinuating that I was not going about constructing this contraption "right".

 

The low side device, the first I suggested, would allow you to switch between the load and ground. These tend to be more common as they are cheaper, and when doing volume the cost is key.

 

If you're struggling with this, the idea of switching the ground side might be harder to swallow. So it may or may not be asorbed.

 

The other two devices were high side.

 

Either way, you should not have any concerns about a common ground within your Motorcycle, nor any automotive-spec environment.

[ESokoloff]

I truly appreciate the input/advice & the time you've spent in doing so.

But would not the CPC1218 work for it's intended purpose?

It would be nice if I could draw out the circuitry i.e. schematic to make things clearer.

Also, God made me a better rider than writer so I apologize for that.

[ESokoloff]

Sequence of operation:

Depress turn signal cancelation button (tscb).

This energizes the TLC555 timer for 10 sec.

 

TLC555 timer's output powers two devices.

(1) SSR

(2) 3v power supply

 

I intend to tap into both positive leads going to each turn signal

 

Right signal will directly power a 12v remote via the tscb SSR (activation switch jumped).

 

Left signal will power another SSR that will act as the activation switch on the 3v remote.

 

I found that the 3v remote would not activate by merely powering it up (activation switch jumped).

Rather it needs power to it before closing activation switch.

 

Edit: (activation switch jumped)

 

Edit v1.1 (activation switch jumped)

[steveknapp]

But would not the CPC1218 work for it's intended purpose?

 

I'm struggling to figure out exactly what you're doing I must admit. Sorry about that.

 

You seem worried about robust, and while both are mechanically robust (temp spec of 85C aside) the electrical output side of the SSR is not very robust.

 

Given it's intended applications, should be just fine in this setup.

 

Do you know the size of the load you're trying to switch? AKA, how much current?

 

Also, is the load connected to bike power? Or is the garage door remote battery fed?

 

Are you switching the power itself? Or are you wiring into the existing switch which may, or may not, switch power?

 

If it's battery fed, and the current is really small (less than the 400-500mA they spec the part at when it's hot), you should be more than fine. Order some spares so if you do toast one during the debug stage due to overcurrent (aka, a short) you don't need pay shipping again.

 

If you're switching bike power, they may be fine, but would be a possible source of failure. Depends on how robust you want to make it.

 

The parts I was suggesting are really intended to go into sealed modules. The OEM's spec all sorts of crazy torture to try to ensure the electronic module is robust. Some bodyshop welding up a new fender isn't going to zorch the computers, for example. There is a lot of "FM" built in there.

 

The goal of presenting them was to both get rid of some of the "FM" that goes around DC electronics, and offer up something small, cheap, and robust.

[steveknapp]

Sequence of operation:

Depress turn signal cancelation button (tscb).

This energizes the TLC555 timer for 10 sec.

 

TLC555 timer's output powers two devices.

(1) SSR

(2) 3v power supply

 

I intend to tap into both positive leads going to each turn signal

 

Right signal will directly power a 12v remote via the tscb SSR.

 

Left signal will power another SSR that will act as the activation switch on the 3v remote.

 

I found that the 3v remote would not activate by merely powering it up (activation switch jumped).

Rather it needs power to it before closing activation switch.

 

Edit: (activation switch jumped)

 

Makes sense. Give it a shot. If you find the SSRs are a failure point (doubtful, but possible), let me know (PM or something) and I'll offer a drawing w/ the high/low side drives in it.

 

Also, it would be interesting to trace the switch on the 3V remote to see if it's switching directly to battery or ground, I'd bet it is. That could simplify things.

 

Sorry for any confusion.

[ESokoloff]

Also, it would be interesting to trace the switch on the 3V remote to see if it's switching directly to battery or ground, I'd bet it is. That could simplify things.

 

Sorry for any confusion.

 

Off the top of my head, I think is is the - side of the button battery.

 

No need to apologize. i cORNfUSE Z-e

 

NOPE, wrong again.

Just checked & the switches are on the positive side of the battery.

Chamberlain 953T