Victims of gun confiscation during aftermath of Katrina

[smiller]

Anybody else see the irony here?

The odds of a LEO happening to be where he needs to be in order to protect you from a specific act of violent crime is pretty small. I don't think it's ironic that an officer would admit this, in fact I'm sure that most know it to be true. It's the citizens that need to carefully consider the fact.

[Lawman]

lawman says

Law enforcement cannot protect us.

 

Anybody else see the irony here?

 

Law enforcement can tell you to buy bigger locks, put up more lights, trim your hedges away from your windows, and lots more touchy feelgood public relations b.s. that makes some people feel safer and better protected. In reality the best that law enforcement can even hope for is to identify and apprehend a perpetrator after the commission of an offense and bring him to justice. I don't consider that to be much protection against an imminent threat.

[Matts_12GS]

Anybody else see the irony here?

The odds of a LEO happening to be where he needs to be in order to protect you from a specific act of violent crime is pretty small. I don't think it's ironic that an officer would admit this, in fact I'm sure that most know it to be true. It's the citizens that need to carefully consider the fact.

After all, isn't that why the fire department encourages people to have fire extinguishers?

 

I mean, if your house is on fire, is the FD going to tell you go hide in a closet and hope the fire goes out?

 

It makes sense to me that you'd have the appropriate tools to allow yourself to either save your life or your home in these situations. However a big piece that's missing is that TRAINING has to be a part of tool kit. You have to know how to use that weapon and that fire extinguisher otherwise you're just endangering yourself needlessly.

[Fugu]

Not only can the police not be there all the time, they don't have any duty to be.

 

Bowers v. Devito, 686 F.2d 616 (7th Cir. 1982) (There is no constitutional right to be protected by the state against being murdered by criminals or madmen. It is monstrous if the state fails to protect its residents against such predators but it does not violate the due process clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, or, we suppose, any other provision of the Constitution. The Constitution is a charter of negative liberties; it tells the state to let the people alone; it does not require the federal government or the state to provide services, even so elementary a service as maintaining law and order.);

[steve.foote]

After all, isn't that why the fire department encourages people to have fire extinguishers?

 

I mean, if your house is on fire, is the FD going to tell you go hide in a closet and hope the fire goes out?

 

It makes sense to me that you'd have the appropriate tools to allow yourself to either save your life or your home in these situations. However a big piece that's missing is that TRAINING has to be a part of tool kit. You have to know how to use that weapon and that fire extinguisher otherwise you're just endangering yourself needlessly.

 

Matt, that is one of the best analogies I've ever heard for this particular subject.

[Mike]

lawman says

Law enforcement cannot protect us.

 

Anybody else see the irony here?

 

I don't. It's their job to do it to the best of their ability. And, of course, there's the whole idea of law enforcement providing us protection on a societal level by catching and convicting the bad guys, thereby promoting general deterrence. But, if lawman is referring to the hope that a cop's going to be on the scene and able to intervene in a violent crime as being highly unlikely, I agree. Even in highly urbanized areas, where there's a high concentration of LEOs, there's a pretty good chance that a violent encounter will develop and be finished in a matter of seconds, well before law enforcement can intervene.

 

However, my viewpoint on all of this is largely formed by my experience growing up on a small farm in the sticks. None of the tiny local towns had their own police departments, and it could easily take the sheriff's department 30 to 60 minutes to respond to an emergency. So, the only practical means of protection in hinky situations was self-protection.

 

Not speaking to you personally Eebie, that's something that I think a lot of city slickers don't understand, or refuse to acknowledge when they call for a total disarmament of the citizenry. It's great to live in a place like I do (a Chicago suburb) where you can count on the police responding in less than five minutes, but for a large number of people there is absolutely no chance that police can respond to an escalating situation in time to help the intended victim. Disarming those people would leave them utterly and totally vulnerable.

 

There are, of course, arguments to be made that exactly that sort of result has been accomplished in Chicago, D.C., and other places where gun ownership is either prohibited or so highly regulated and expensive as to make them unavailable to the most vulnerable.

 

Getting back to the topic of the original post, the confiscation of guns in post-Katrina New Orleans, I guess that's what bothers me most about that situation. Forgetting for a moment whether this was an abridgement of constitutional rights, these were apparently law-abiding people who found themselves in a situation where social order had broken down. At a time when I think most rational people would hope to have the means to protect themselves, the authorities had set about taking away those means. As I understand the facts--and my knowledge is admittedly superficial--these were citizens who were law-abiding enough to have registered their weapons with the authorities. It seems terribly misguided.

[russell_bynum]

Anybody else see the irony here?

The odds of a LEO happening to be where he needs to be in order to protect you from a specific act of violent crime is pretty small. I don't think it's ironic that an officer would admit this, in fact I'm sure that most know it to be true. It's the citizens that need to carefully consider the fact.

 

Yep. How long does it take between the time you pick up your phone and dial 911 to the time an officer in the field actually gets a dispatch? I'd be amazed if it wasn't at least 2-3 minutes even on the best day.

 

How long do you think you'd have between the time you realize that you are about to need a police officer to protect you?

 

Then there's the time it takes the officer to get from where ever he/she is to your location.

 

I'd guess that if someone broke into your house, and there was an officer parked in your driveway at the time that the break-in happened, you wouldn't have enough time to call 911 and get a dispatch to that officer that you need help before it is too late.

 

If you're not at home, so you're calling on your cell phone, that response time gets even worse.

[steveknapp]

1.We had a national system - not just one State - all States which had unilateral political support and saw no use in the general community for semi auto rifles. (Handguns are not easy to obtain here in the first place)....so in the US I suspect you can just go interstate to buy whatever

 

Already mentioned, interstate isn't quite that easy.

 

I can go to Wisconsin (I live near a state border, Illinois my home state has stricter laws than Wisconsin and requires me to have a Firearm owner ID card to look at guns in a shop, buy ammo, or buy any firearm.) to buy ammo. They will sell me a long gun (shotgun or rifle, both considered not good for crime) with the required waiting period and background checks.

 

But I can not buy a handgun without doing an transfer between two Federally licensed people. Typically businesses. The receiver is obligated to perform the needed background checks as if they had sold the weapon themselves. This is the same way that any mail order gun purchase takes place.

 

It's really not that easy to purchase a handgun legally. Some say too easy. Illegally, might be easier, but laws aren't going to solve that if they didn't already.

 

2.We don't have a large population so not that many legal or illegal guns in the wider community per capita in the first place ( I swear one guy in the subject film clip had 15-20 shotguns/rifles. Wow)

 

Some people collect things.

 

3. The gun lobby/gun industry is not that powerful here

4. As we don't have a gun culture the majority who don't own guns/have an interest in guns wanted something that overuled a small minority

 

Different culture makes sense. I'm not sure if the gun owners here are a minority or not. It's one of those things where most people I know have some interest in them, but might be the company I keep.

 

Still interested in how they did the ban. One of the issues I see here in the USA is criminals have guns. If you make a law saying "no guns" the criminals tend not to listen, and you end up making them more powerful. Following the ownership logs and the like is possible, but I think that area must get a bit gray and fuzzy. I'd assume many who use guns in crimes aren't legally allowed to own one, and as such purchased it without the needed background checks.

 

Not trying to be rude, or argue, I'm just curious. I just can't see the government being able to clean up all the guns. I know they did there, and in the UK, for the most part, but rather different cultures.

[ghaverkamp]

Forgetting for a moment whether this was an abridgement of constitutional rights, these were apparently law-abiding people who found themselves in a situation where social order had broken down. At a time when I think most rational people would hope to have the means to protect themselves, the authorities had set about taking away those means. As I understand the facts--and my knowledge is admittedly superficial--these were citizens who were law-abiding enough to have registered their weapons with the authorities. It seems terribly misguided.

 

But they weren't law abiding. If they were law abiding, they would have evacuated as they were legally required to do when ordered to do so.

[Lawman]

But they weren't law abiding. If they were law abiding, they would have evacuated as they were legally required to do when ordered to do so.

 

What is the penalty for violating this law?

[ghaverkamp]

What is the penalty for violating this law?

 

It's a misdemeanor. I don't recall the penalties.

 

Hardly an issue, however. The same reason there was such a mess for FEMA with all those stranded is the same reason these people had confrontations with law enforcement: they failed to heed the evacuation order.

[Lawman]

What is the penalty for violating this law?

 

It's a misdemeanor. I don't recall the penalties.

 

Hardly an issue, however.

 

I absolutely disagree..If you don't remember...Can you find the law and the penalty range? I sometimes speed but I don't think that gives the government the right to come in my house and seize my stuff.

[steve.foote]

But they weren't law abiding. If they were law abiding, they would have evacuated as they were legally required to do when ordered to do so.

 

Greg, that arguement may hold up as a technicality in court, but it's a pretty weak arguement in the eyes of most people. It's definately not very persuasive.

 

However, I would be interested in learning how severe an infraction failure to evacuate is. Misdemeanor, felony? I live in an area very vulnerable to hurricane's, and there is no question that we would evacuate should one come our way. But, that would be my choice due to my desire to outlive the storm. If I were required to evac for a reason I felt unnecessary, I probably wouldn't. It would probably be a good idea to know how much trouble I might be in.

[ghaverkamp]

I absolutely disagree..If you don't remember...Can you find the law and the penalty range? I sometimes speed but I don't think that gives the government the right to come in my house and seize my stuff.

 

Where speeding is a misdemeanor, it would allow them to arrest you and seize your stuff.

 

However, I didn't mean to conflate the situations. First, people keep saying the people who defied the order to evacuate were law abiding citizens. Clearly they were not. In fact, they were likely guilty of misdemeanors at the times they were visit by law enforcement and had their weapons seized. It is because of their defiance of the law that they have, according to their claims, found themselves in harm's way. If they had left when ordered, there would have been no need to protect themselves.

 

Second, there's the issue of the seizures. The Fourth Amendment protects against unreasonable seizures. Reasonable seizures are not prohibited by the Fourth Amendment. Where police are attempting to bring order to a situation where armed thugs are roaming the streets and the law abiding of the population have left their houses, collecting guns to prevent the growth of an arsenal may very well be deemed reasonable.

 

I'm not advocating a position here; I'm just suggesting that this is not the cut-and-dried situation the NRA makes it out to be.

[Fugu]

 

 

 

§329.6. Proclamation of state of emergency; conditions therefor; effect thereof

 

A. During times of great public crisis, disaster, rioting, catastrophe, or similar public emergency within the territorial limits of any municipality or parish, or in the event of reasonable apprehension of immediate danger thereof, and upon a finding that the public safety is imperiled thereby, the chief executive officer of any political subdivision or the district judge, district attorney, or the sheriff of any parish of this state, or the public safety director of a municipality, may request the governor to proclaim a state of emergency within any part or all of the territorial limits of such local government. Following such proclamation by the governor, and during the continuance of such state of emergency, the chief law enforcement officer of the political subdivision affected by the proclamation may, in order to protect life and property and to bring the emergency situation under control, promulgate orders affecting any part or all of the territorial limits of the municipality or parish:

 

(1) Establishing a curfew and prohibiting and/or controlling pedestrian and vehicular traffic, except essential emergency vehicles and personnel;

 

(2) Designating specific zones within which the occupancy and use of buildings and the ingress and egress of vehicles and persons shall be prohibited or regulated;

 

(3) Regulating and closing of places of amusement and assembly;

 

(4) Prohibiting the sale and distribution of alcoholic beverages;

 

(5) Prohibiting and controlling the presence of persons on public streets and places;

 

(6) Regulating and controlling the possession, storage, display, sale, transport and use of firearms, other dangerous weapons and ammunition;

 

(7) Regulating and controlling the possession, storage, display, sale, transport and use of explosives and flammable materials and liquids, including but not limited to the closing of all wholesale and retail establishments which sell or distribute gasoline and other flammable products;

 

(8) Regulating and controlling the possession, storage, display, sale, transport and use of sound apparatus, including but not limited to public address systems, bull horns and megaphones.

 

(9) Prohibiting the sale or offer for sale of goods or services within the designated emergency area for value exceeding the prices ordinarily charged for comparable goods and services in the same market area at, or immediately before, the time of the state of emergency. However, the value received may include reasonable expenses and a charge for any attendant business risk in addition to the cost of the goods and services which necessarily are incurred in procuring the goods and services during the state of emergency, pursuant to the provisions of R.S. 29:701 through 716.

 

B. Such orders shall be effective from the time and in the manner prescribed in such orders and shall be published as soon as practicable in a newspaper of general circulation in the area affected by such order and transmitted to the radio and television media for publication and broadcast. Such orders shall cease to be in effect five days after their promulgation or upon declaration by the governor that the state of emergency no longer exists, whichever occurs sooner; however, the chief law enforcement officer, with the consent of the governor, may extend the effect of such orders for successive periods of not more than five days each by republication of such orders in the manner hereinabove provided.

 

C. All orders promulgated pursuant to this section shall be executed in triplicate and shall be filed with the clerk of court of the parish affected and with the secretary of state of this state.

 

D. During any period during which a state of emergency exists the proclaiming officer may appoint additional peace officers or firemen for temporary service, who need not be in the classified lists of such departments. Such additional persons shall be employed only for the time during which the emergency exists.

 

E. During the period of the existence of the state of emergency the chief law enforcement officer of the political subdivision may call upon the sheriff, mayor, or other chief executive officer of any other parish or municipality to furnish such law enforcement or fire protection personnel, or both, together with appropriate equipment and apparatus, as may be necessary to preserve the public peace and protect persons and property in the requesting area. Such aid shall be furnished to the chief law enforcement officer requesting it insofar as possible without withdrawing from the political subdivision furnishing such aid the minimum police and fire protection appearing necessary under the circumstances. In such cases when a state of emergency has been declared by the governor pursuant to R.S. 29:724 et seq., all first responders who are members of a state or local office of homeland security and emergency preparedness, including but not limited to medical personnel, emergency medical technicians, persons called to active duty service in the uniformed services of the United States, Louisiana National Guard, Louisiana Guard, Civil Air Patrol, law enforcement and fire protection personnel acting outside the territory of their regular employment shall be considered as performing services within the territory of their regular employment for purposes of compensation, pension, and other rights or benefits to which they may be entitled as incidents of their regular employment. Law enforcement officers acting pursuant to this Section outside the territory of their regular employment have the same authority to enforce the law as when acting within the territory of their own employment.

 

F. Notwithstanding the provisions of this Section, except in an imminent life threatening situation nothing herein shall restrict any uniformed employee of a licensed private security company, acting within the scope of employment, from entering and remaining in an area where an emergency has been declared. The provisions of this Subsection shall apply if the licensed private security company submits a list of employees and their assignment to be allowed into the area, to the Louisiana State Board of Private Security Examiners, which shall forward the list to the chief law enforcement office of the parish and, if different, the agency in charge of the scene.

 

G. As used in this Section:

 

(1) "Disaster" shall have the same meaning as provided in R.S. 29:723(1).

 

(2) "Emergency" shall have the same meaning as provided in R.S. 29:723(2).

 

H.(1) Nothing in this Section shall authorize the seizure or confiscation of any firearm or ammunition from any individual who is lawfully carrying or possessing the firearm or ammunition except as provided in Paragraph (2) of this Subsection.

 

(2) A peace officer who is acting in the lawful discharge of the officer's official duties may disarm an individual if the officer reasonably believes it is immediately necessary for the protection of the officer or another individual. The peace officer shall return the firearm to the individual before discharging that individual unless the officer arrests that individual for engaging in criminal activity, or seizes the firearm as evidence pursuant to an investigation for the commission of a crime.

 

Acts 1969, No. 176, §7; Acts 1990, No. 152, §1, eff. July 1, 1990; Acts 1999, No. 267, §1; Acts 2003, No. 40, §1, eff. May 23, 2003; Acts 2004, No. 316, §1, eff. June 18, 2004; Acts 2006, No. 275, §1, eff. June 8, 2006.

 

 

§724. Powers of the governor

 

A. The governor is responsible for meeting the dangers to the state and people presented by emergencies or disasters, and in order to effectuate the provisions of this Chapter, the governor may issue executive orders, proclamations, and regulations and amend or rescind them. Executive orders, proclamations, and regulations so issued shall have the force and effect of law.

 

B.(1) A disaster or emergency, or both, shall be declared by executive order or proclamation of the governor if he finds a disaster or emergency has occurred or the threat thereof is imminent. The state of disaster or emergency shall continue until the governor finds that the threat of danger has passed or the disaster or emergency has been dealt with to the extent that the emergency conditions no longer exist and terminates the state of disaster or emergency by executive order or proclamation, but no state of disaster or emergency may continue for longer than thirty days unless renewed by the governor.

 

(2) The legislature, by petition signed by a majority of the surviving members of either house, may terminate a state of disaster or emergency at any time. This petition terminating the state of emergency or disaster may establish a period during which no other declaration of emergency or disaster may be issued. Thereupon, the governor shall issue an executive order or proclamation ending the state of disaster or emergency.

 

(3) All executive orders or proclamations issued under this Subsection shall indicate the nature of the disaster or emergency, the area or areas which are or may be affected, and the conditions which have brought it about or which make possible the termination of the state of disaster or emergency. An executive order or proclamation shall be disseminated promptly by means calculated to bring its contents to the attention of the general public and, unless the circumstances attendant upon the disaster or emergency prevent or impede it, promptly filed with the Governor's Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness and with the secretary of state.

 

C. The declaration of an emergency or disaster by the governor shall:

 

(1) Activate the state's emergency response and recovery program under the command of the director of the Governor's Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness.

 

(2) Direct and compel the evacuation of all or part of the population from any stricken or threatened area within the state if he deems this action necessary for the preservation of life or other disaster mitigation, response, or recovery.

 

(3) Control ingress and egress to and from a disaster area, the movement of persons within the area, and the occupancy of premises therein.

 

D. In addition to any other powers conferred upon the governor by law, he may do any or all of the following:

 

(1) Suspend the provisions of any regulatory statute prescribing the procedures for conduct of state business, or the orders, rules, or regulations of any state agency, if strict compliance with the provisions of any statute, order, rule, or regulation would in any way prevent, hinder, or delay necessary action in coping with the emergency.

 

(2) Utilize all available resources of the state government and of each political subdivision of the state as reasonably necessary to cope with the disaster or emergency.

 

(3) Transfer the direction, personnel, or functions of state departments and agencies or units thereof for the purpose of performing or facilitating emergency services.

 

(4) Subject to any applicable requirements for compensation, commandeer or utilize any private property if he finds this necessary to cope with the disaster or emergency.

 

(5) Prescribe routes, modes of transportation, and destination in connection with evacuation.

 

(6) Suspend or limit the sale, dispensing, or transportation of alcoholic beverages, firearms, explosives, and combustibles.

 

(7) Make provision for the availability and use of temporary emergency housing.

 

E. In the event of an emergency declared by the governor pursuant to this Chapter, any person or representative of any firm, partnership, or corporation violating any order, rule, or regulation promulgated pursuant to this Chapter, shall be fined not more than five hundred dollars or confined in the parish jail for not more than six months, or both. No executive order, proclamation, or regulation shall create or define a crime or fix penalties.

 

F. No organization for homeland security and emergency preparedness established under this Chapter shall be employed directly or indirectly for political purposes.

 

G. Notwithstanding the provisions of this Section, except in an imminent life threatening situation nothing herein shall restrict any uniformed employee of a licensed private security company, acting within the scope of employment, from entering and remaining in an area where an emergency has been declared. The provisions of this Subsection shall apply if the licensed private security company submits a list of employees and their assignment to be allowed into the area, to the Louisiana State Board of Private Security Examiners, which shall forward the list to the chief law enforcement office of the parish and, if different, the agency in charge of the scene.

 

Acts 1993, No. 800, §1, eff. June 22, 1993; Acts 1999, No. 267, §2; Acts 2003, No. 40, §2, eff. May 23, 2003; Acts 2006, 1st Ex. Sess., No. 35, §1, eff. March 1, 2006; Acts 2006, No. 442, §3, eff. June 15, 2006.

 

§725. State emergency and disaster agency; powers of director

 

A. The Governor's Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness is hereby established as a state agency within the office of the governor.

 

B. The governor shall designate the Governor's Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness as the state homeland security and emergency preparedness agency. The office shall be an independent agency in the office of the governor and, through its director, shall report directly to the governor. The office shall have authority for and shall be responsible for its own accounting and budget control, procurement and contract management, personnel management, and grants management and shall carry out these functions either directly or through authorized assignment to another state agency or department. The office shall have authority to enter into contracts and agreements necessary in carrying out its functions and responsibilities.

 

C.(1) There shall be a director of the Governor's Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness who shall be appointed by the governor, subject to Senate confirmation. He shall administer the state emergency preparedness agency as provided in this Chapter. The director shall serve at a salary fixed by the governor, which salary shall not exceed the amount approved for the position by the legislature.

 

(2) The director shall have had at least ten years of emergency management experience or equivalent experience in emergency operations.

 

D. The director may adopt and promulgate, pursuant to the Administrative Procedure Act, such rules and regulations as are necessary to implement his authority under the provisions of this Chapter and such authority as the governor shall delegate to him pursuant to the provisions of this Chapter.

 

E. The director shall appoint a deputy director, subject to senate confirmation, to administer the provisions of this Chapter. The deputy director shall have and may exercise such powers and duties of the director as the director shall delegate to him. The director may appoint such assistant deputy directors as may be necessary to carry out the functions of the office, including but not limited to homeland security, emergency preparedness, and recovery. Each assistant deputy director shall have and may exercise such powers and duties of the director or the deputy director as the director or deputy director shall delegate to him.

 

F. The director shall, in addition to other staff, appoint regional coordinators and may appoint assistant coordinators for each homeland security and emergency preparedness region throughout the state, as provided by R.S. 29:726(E)(21) to assist each of the parish offices of homeland security and emergency preparedness in the administration of the provisions of this Chapter.

 

G.(1) The director may employ such professional, technical, clerical, stenographic, and other personnel, and he shall fix their compensation and may make expenditures from available funds appropriated for the Governor's Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness or other funds made available to him for purposes of homeland security and emergency preparedness as may be necessary to carry out the purposes of this Chapter. During a gubernatorially declared disaster or emergency, the director shall have the authority to expend funds for emergency protective measures even if there is no budget authority of funds available. The director, the deputy director, and the assistant deputy directors, if appointed, shall be provided with the necessary and appropriate office space, furniture, equipment, supplies, stationery, and printing. The necessary mileage, office expenses, salaries of personnel, postage, telephone, and expressage shall be chargeable to any funds available for homeland security and emergency preparedness.

 

(2) All current and future employees of the Governor's Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness shall be subject to the laws, rules, and regulations governing employees in unclassified state service. Such employees shall remain in unclassified state service.

 

H. The director, subject to the direction and control of the governor, shall be the executive head of the state homeland security and emergency preparedness agency and as such shall be responsible to the governor for carrying out the programs for homeland security and emergency preparedness for the state of Louisiana. He shall coordinate the activities of all agencies and organizations for homeland security and emergency preparedness within the state and shall maintain liaison with and cooperate with homeland security and emergency preparedness agencies and organizations of other states and of the federal government. All state agencies and departments shall comply with directives from the Governor's Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness relating to emergency planning and operations.

 

I. The Governor's Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness shall operate pursuant to rules developed, adopted, and promulgated as provided for state agencies in the Administrative Procedure Act. Such rules shall be subject to the authority of the legislature to oversee their development as provided in such Act and for such purpose shall be submitted to the Senate Committee on Homeland Security and the House Committee on Homeland Security.

 

Acts 1993, No. 800, §1, eff. June 22, 1993; Acts 2003, No. 40, §2, eff. May 23, 2003; Acts 2006, 1st Ex. Sess., No. 35, §1, eff. March 1, 2006; Acts 2006, No. 442, §§1, 3, eff. June 15, 2006.

 

§727. Powers of the parish president; penalties for violations

 

A. Each political subdivision within this state shall be within the jurisdiction of and served by the Governor's Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness for purposes of homeland security and emergency preparedness and by a parish homeland security and emergency preparedness agency responsible for emergency or disaster mitigation, preparedness, response, and recovery.

 

B. Each parish president is hereby authorized and directed to establish an office of homeland security and emergency preparedness for the respective parish.

 

C. Each parish president shall maintain a homeland security and emergency preparedness agency which, except as otherwise provided under this Chapter, has jurisdiction over and serves the entire parish.

 

D. A local disaster or emergency may be declared only by the parish president, except as otherwise provided in this Chapter. In that event, the state of emergency shall continue until the parish president finds that the threat of danger has been dealt with to the extent that emergency conditions no longer exist. The state of emergency may be terminated by executive order or proclamation, but no state of emergency may continue for longer than thirty days unless extended by the parish president. The state of emergency or disaster may be terminated by the governor, a petition signed by a majority of the surviving members of either house of the legislature, or a majority of the surviving members of the parish governing authority. The document terminating the state of emergency or disaster may establish a period during which no other declaration of emergency or disaster may be issued. All executive orders or proclamations issued under this Subsection shall indicate the nature of the emergency, the area or areas which are or may be affected, and the conditions which brought it about. Any order or proclamation declaring, continuing, or terminating a local disaster or emergency shall be given prompt and general publicity and shall be filed promptly with the office of emergency preparedness and the office of the clerk of court.

 

E. Notwithstanding any other provision of this Chapter, when the parish president declares a local disaster or emergency within such subdivision the parish president shall carry out the provisions of this Chapter. Nothing contained herein shall be construed to confer upon the parish president any authority to control or direct the activities of any state agency. When the disaster or emergency is beyond the capabilities of the local government, the parish president shall request assistance from the Governor's Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness. The declaration of a local emergency will serve to activate the response and recovery program of the local government.

 

F. In addition to any other powers conferred upon the parish president by the constitution, laws, or by a home rule charter or plan of government, such authority may do any or all of the following:

 

(1) Suspend the provisions of any regulatory ordinance prescribing the procedures for conduct of local business, or the orders, rules, or regulations of any local agency, if strict compliance with the provisions of any ordinance, order, rule, or regulation would in any way prevent, hinder, or delay necessary action in coping with the emergency.

 

(2) Utilize all available resources of the local government as reasonably necessary to cope with the local disaster or emergency.

 

(3) Transfer the direction, personnel, or functions of local departments and agencies or units thereof for the purpose of performing or facilitating emergency services.

 

(4) Subject to any applicable requirements for compensation, commandeer or utilize any private property if he finds this necessary to cope with the local disaster.

 

(5) Direct and compel the evacuation of all or part of the population from any stricken or threatened area within the boundaries of the parish if he deems this action necessary for mitigation, response, or recovery measures.

 

(6) Prescribe routes, modes of transportation, and destinations in connection with evacuation within the local government's jurisdiction.

 

(7) Control ingress and egress to and from the affected area, the movement of persons within the area, and the occupancy of premises therein.

 

 

 

(8) Suspend or limit the sale, dispensing, or transportation of alcoholic beverages, firearms, explosives, and combustibles.

 

G. In the event of an emergency declared by the parish president pursuant to this Chapter, any person or representative of any firm, partnership, or corporation violating any order, rule, or regulation promulgated pursuant to this Chapter, shall be fined not more than five hundred dollars, or confined in the parish jail for not more than six months, or both.

 

H. No organization for homeland security and emergency preparedness established under this Chapter shall be employed directly or indirectly for political purposes.

 

Acts 1993, No. 800, §1, eff. June 22, 1993; Acts 2001, No. 1148, §1, eff. June 29, 2001; Acts 2003, No. 40, §2, eff. May 23, 2003; Acts 2006, 1st Ex. Sess., No. 35, §§1, 8, eff. March 1, 2006; Acts 2006, No. 442, §3, eff. June 15, 2006.

[Lawman]

According to this article the governor makes that decision and I cannot find where where she did..I've yet to see any law that required those people to evacuate much less giving the government the right to enter their homes without a warrant and seize their property..If you can show me where they were authorized by law to do that then I'll just say that's even more reason that people have to be pissed but until someone can show me that I'll assume it was illegal.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,168644,00.html

[Fugu]

By the way, no I didn't read all that law that I posted and I'm not going to, but somebody asked about the applicable laws, and there at least some of them are.

 

I don't really need the support of state law to make my decision on this. Removing people from their homes at gunpoint when government failed to prepare for their shelter post disaster, seizing and destroying their tools of self defense while government failed to maintain order, and forcing people who were in many cases prepared for the disaster into hell holes like the Superdome are all wrong, legal or not.

[ghaverkamp]

Greg, that arguement may hold up as a technicality in court, but it's a pretty weak arguement in the eyes of most people. It's definately not very persuasive.

 

It's not a technicality if it's the plain language of the statute. (In comparison, contrast with the much-touted Second Amendment and attempt to find any plain language amidst the commas.) A misdemeanor arrest wouldn't permit full home searches and seizures, anyway. But that's not the point. The only reason the people are there with their guns is because they refused a lawful order to evacuate. Portraying them as innocents just out to protect themselves when they intentionally put themselves in harm's way is my complaint on this matter.

 

If I were required to evac for a reason I felt unnecessary, I probably wouldn't. It would probably be a good idea to know how much trouble I might be in.

 

Well, it would be Georgia law in that case. I'm not going to read the entire Georgia emergency management law (for one thing, it's tiered, so counties and municipalities may enact their own structure to augment or supplant state actions). However, the operative part appears to be this:

 

§ 38-3-7. Penalty for violations of Georgia Emergency Management Act of 1981

 

Any person who violates any provision of Articles 1 through 3 of this chapter or any rule, order, or regulation made pursuant to Articles 1 through 3 of this chapter shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.

[Lawman]

H.(1) Nothing in this Section shall authorize the seizure or confiscation of any firearm or ammunition from any individual who is lawfully carrying or possessing the firearm or ammunition except as provided in Paragraph (2) of this Subsection.

 

(2) A peace officer who is acting in the lawful discharge of the officer's official duties may disarm an individual if the officer reasonably believes it is immediately necessary for the protection of the officer or another individual. The peace officer shall return the firearm to the individual before discharging that individual unless the officer arrests that individual for engaging in criminal activity, or seizes the firearm as evidence pursuant to an investigation for the commission of a crime.

_____________________________________________________________

[Lawman]

Greg,

You continue to insist these people were in violation of the law but you cannot cite the law..I'm accustomed to more from you. The law I read specifically forbids what they did..

[ghaverkamp]

This most recently posted statute is the revised statute.

 

Look earlier in the thread, and you'll find the operative language that authorized the police to take weapons. You yourself responded to the post, so it shouldn't be hard to find.

 

Then there are the Fourth Amendment issues Mike brought up and I addressed as an argument to find the seizures legal.

[Fugu]

This most recently posted statute is the revised statute.

 

My mistake. I didn't check the revision dates. I can't find the pre-Katrina versions, either.

 

But if you're referring to my post on page 4 or so, note the apparently valid comment that the emergency powers can't supersede the state constitution.

 

 

[Mike]

Forgetting for a moment whether this was an abridgement of constitutional rights, these were apparently law-abiding people who found themselves in a situation where social order had broken down. At a time when I think most rational people would hope to have the means to protect themselves, the authorities had set about taking away those means. As I understand the facts--and my knowledge is admittedly superficial--these were citizens who were law-abiding enough to have registered their weapons with the authorities. It seems terribly misguided.

 

But they weren't law abiding. If they were law abiding, they would have evacuated as they were legally required to do when ordered to do so.

 

We'd definitely have to look at this on a case-by-case basis, but as I recall there were tens, if not hundreds of thousands of people who were effectively trapped there. Admittedly, some of these cases were the result of their own reluctance to leave, but many simply had no choice. So, yes, they may not have been "law-abiding" if you take that term to include failing or being unable to comply with the evacuation order. Does that justify warrantless searches and seizures? I not, were there exigent circumstances of the sort that justify a warrantless entry?

 

What I suggest is that this is heavy stuff--if local officials feel they are free to suspend the Constitution, we've got bigger trouble than a few little old ladies with .32s in their nightstands. The state statute, as it existed at the time of Katrina does provide some cover for those who were responsible, but it of course could in no way trump the Constitution. It's all pretty interesting from a legal perspective, but I find it horrifying as a citizen.

 

One thing that it does harken back to, which most folks are afraid to discuss, is that there was, according some many constitutional historians, a greater concern than self-protection that caused the framers of the Constitution to adopt the Second Amendment. Those scholars argue that the citizens' right to arm themselves was created in part to guard against the development of an oppressive government.

[ghaverkamp]

Does that justify warrantless searches and seizures? I not, were there exigent circumstances of the sort that justify a warrantless entry?

 

Unless I was representing the city, I wouldn't suggest that the failure to abide by the evacuation order justified warrantless searches. I think an exigency argument is much easier to make, and I've already done so in another post.

 

The flip side, which I see as something of a stretch as much as I'd like to buy into it (my professor who is advising me on my paper -- which is deep in 4th Amend. -- is a huge advocate of the following), is the position that there is no exigency exception to the Fourth Amendment, and the only reasonable search is one that is conduction with a PC warrant. Again, all the damn commas allow for many ways of reading things.

[ghaverkamp]

But if you're referring to my post on page 4 or so, note the apparently valid comment that the emergency powers can't supersede the state constitution.

 

I'd call it a "potentially meritorious argument."

 

My knowledge of Louisiana constitutional law is colored mostly by my knowledge of U.S. constitutional law as it has repeatedly torn up Louisiana law. How to apply the Louisiana constitution to Louisiana state law with its bizarre legal system is beyond me. Generally, I can't buy into reading any provision as absolute, largely because few courts will ever do so.

[ghaverkamp]

Greg,

You continue to insist these people were in violation of the law but you cannot cite the law..I'm accustomed to more from you. The law I read specifically forbids what they did..

 

I believe this is it:

 

La. Rev. Stat. 29:727(G):

 

G. In the event of an emergency declared by the parish president pursuant to this Chapter, any person or representative of any firm, partnership, or corporation violating any order, rule, or regulation promulgated pursuant to this Chapter, shall be fined not more than five hundred dollars, or confined in the parish jail for not more than six months, or both.

[Lawman]

 

 

What I suggest is that this is heavy stuff--if local officials feel they are free to suspend the Constitution, we've got bigger trouble than a few little old ladies with .32s in their nightstands. The state statute, as it existed at the time of Katrina does provide some cover for those who were responsible, but it of course could in no way trump the Constitution. It's all pretty interesting from a legal perspective, but I find it horrifying as a citizen.

 

 

As do I..

[ghaverkamp]

One thing that it does harken back to, which most folks are afraid to discuss, is that there was, according some many constitutional historians, a greater concern than self-protection that caused the framers of the Constitution to adopt the Second Amendment. Those scholars argue that the citizens' right to arm themselves was created in part to guard against the development of an oppressive government.

 

There's almost no question of that. However, it's not clear that it was so that the citizens could individually arm themselves to fight their oppressors, or so that the states could form militias to fight the oppressive federal government. It will be interesting to see how far the Court is willing to go in D.C. v. Heller.

[Lawman]

 

I believe this is it:

 

La. Rev. Stat. 29:727(G):

 

G. In the event of an emergency declared by the parish president pursuant to this Chapter, any person or representative of any firm, partnership, or corporation violating any order, rule, or regulation promulgated pursuant to this Chapter, shall be fined not more than five hundred dollars, or confined in the parish jail for not more than six months, or both.

 

 

Is that your basis for saying that the government could legally enter the residence of homeowners who were inside their homes and confiscate their guns?

[ghaverkamp]

Is that your basis for saying that the government could legally enter the residence of homeowners who were inside their homes and confiscate their guns?

 

I'm not going to keep repeating myself. Go back and read what I've written.

[Lawman]

In your professional opinion do you believe it was legal for the police dept. to enter those homes and seize those guns?

[Lawman]

Here is another part of your statute..

 

 

 

E. Notwithstanding any other provision of this Chapter, when the parish president declares a local disaster or emergency within such subdivision the parish president shall carry out the provisions of this Chapter. Nothing contained herein shall be construed to confer upon the parish president any authority to control or direct the activities of any state agency. When the disaster or emergency is beyond the capabilities of the local government, the parish president shall request assistance from the Governor's Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness. The declaration of a local emergency will serve to activate the response and recovery program of the local government.

[ghaverkamp]

In your professional opinion do you believe it was legal for the police dept. to enter those homes and seize those guns?

 

My professional opinion as a systems engineer? Heck, I don't know, but I figure for it to be so screwed up, the governments must've been run on Windows.

[ghaverkamp]

Here is another part of your statute..

 

It's not my statute.

[HexHead]

Just like people on airplanes will never act like they did before 9/11 if hijacked, after all the nonsense with the confiscated weapons in New Orleans, I doubt people will be so cooperative to just hand them over again.

 

Going door to door to confiscate weapons is unconstitutional and the officers should have refused to do it. For those that do, it should be extremely hazardous duty.

[Shaman97]

However, I didn't mean to conflate the situations. First, people keep saying the people who defied the order to evacuate were law abiding citizens. Clearly they were not. In fact, they were likely guilty of misdemeanors at the times they were visit by law enforcement and had their weapons seized. It is because of their defiance of the law that they have, according to their claims, found themselves in harm's way. If they had left when ordered, there would have been no need to protect themselves.

 

Greg,

In at least one instance, a person and his family that was evacuating the area by car was stopped, asked if they were carrying weapons, and had them confiscated. Apparently (again, this video is tremendously one-sided) there was a decision to confiscate all weapons (per the police chief) - not just those that were disobeying the evacuation order.

[ghaverkamp]

Going door to door to confiscate weapons is unconstitutional and the officers should have refused to do it.

 

Prove it.

 

 

For those that do, it should be extremely hazardous duty.

 

And you better have real proof if you intend to carry out some nonsense like this (as you professed earlier.) Self-help is not a defense.

[Lawman]

My professional opinion as a systems engineer?

 

Well actually I probably have more respect for a systems engineer than a lawyer ...

That's just a joke everybody so please spare me...

[HexHead]

Going door to door to confiscate weapons is unconstitutional and the officers should have refused to do it.

 

Prove it.

 

 

For those that do, it should be extremely hazardous duty.

 

And you better have real proof if you intend to carry out some nonsense like this (as you professed earlier.) Self-help is not a defense.

 

Door to door searches to confiscate weapons just because the police chief feels like it are violations of the 2nd and 4th amendment.

 

Now prove me wrong.

[ghaverkamp]

In at least one instance, a person and his family that was evacuating the area by car was stopped, asked if they were carrying weapons, and had them confiscated. Apparently (again, this video is tremendously one-sided) there was a decision to confiscate all weapons (per the police chief) - not just those that were disobeying the evacuation order.

 

Without knowing the veracity of the story, or, if it's true, when the person was evacuating, it's hard to draw upon anything. Fourth Amendment arguments are even harder to make. However, the story strikes me as bogus. There were too many cars and too many people evacuating for the cops to be stopping everyone. Now, if they evacuating after the time they were supposed to be gone, then, again, they were in violation. At that point, seizing their weapons from their car is easy.

[ghaverkamp]

Door to door searches to confiscate weapons just because the police chief feels like it are violations of the 2nd and 4th amendment.

 

Now prove me wrong.

 

I'm sorry. Was that what you call proof? I've already addressed your points.

[steve.foote]

Heck, I don't know, but I figure for it to be so screwed up, the governments must've been run on Windows.

 

Alright Mister, now you've done it. That is waaaaay below the belt.

[4wheeldog]

Forgetting for a moment whether this was an abridgement of constitutional rights, these were apparently law-abiding people who found themselves in a situation where social order had broken down. At a time when I think most rational people would hope to have the means to protect themselves, the authorities had set about taking away those means. As I understand the facts--and my knowledge is admittedly superficial--these were citizens who were law-abiding enough to have registered their weapons with the authorities. It seems terribly misguided.

 

But they weren't law abiding. If they were law abiding, they would have evacuated as they were legally required to do when ordered to do so.

 

Some of them were on their way out of town when waylaid by the police, vehicles searched, guns seized. Others had their guns stolen from vacant houses. Some had returned from evacuation to safeguard their valuables only to have the POLICE steal them.

I would also question the totally ineffective (In this case) government and police forces' legal standing in requiring evacuation. If they did have standing, then seizing, storing and providing reciepts for items seized would be more appropriate than just stealing/detroying them. It would seem that some responsibility for keeping track of seized property would be a minimum requirement for law enforcement.

[velomoto]

Door to door searches to confiscate weapons just because the police chief feels like it are violations of the 2nd and 4th amendment.

 

Now prove me wrong.

 

I'm sorry. Was that what you call proof? I've already addressed your points.

Proof? You need more proof? Didn't you watch the NRA video? That there's all the proof we need around here?

[azkaisr]

I don't know why you all are posting this stuff.

 

The Revolution will take care of all of this. Lawman, we may need a short paragraph in our Manifesto to cover this sort of thing. Right after the part about banning all non approved interaction with muppets (get over it Richard). It has about the same amount of social relevance as the NRA to most of us.

 

 

 

[steveknapp]

Midwest has hollow points on sale...

 

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=465852&t=11082005

 

Stock up before the next hurricane/tornado/flood/fire season starts.

 

Last I checked, most places (Texas excluded) did not allow the use of lethal force to protect property, only life. Cops stealing your stuff would not justify.

 

Now the really weird question that pops into my mind, if a COP were to threaten your life, and you shot him/her...

 

Would anyone believe you?

 

"The cop threatened the use of lethal force in an effort to steal my stash of drinkable water"

 

You're screwed!

[BeniciaRT_GT]

Why you gotta go and bring Beaker into this?

 

And stay the hell away from Miss Piggy

 

 

This seems simple enough to me, although I'm enjoying all the "lawyering" going on.

 

The courts said it was an illegal search and seizure.

 

It is a hollow victory when people in charge get to do what they want and ask for forgivness later.

 

It will continue to happen, even if we change the laws to be even stronger. The guy with the badge, riot gear, bullet proof vest, training, and superior numbers will win against us every time.

 

Make sure to include me in your working weekend (of armed socilaists.) drawing up the manifesto!

 

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

[Matts_12GS]

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

 

Perhaps we can collaborate and I'll share bits of my manifesto as well?

 

Otherwise, all we're doing is feeding this guy, hoping he eats us last...

[Fugu]

But if you're referring to my post on page 4 or so, note the apparently valid comment that the emergency powers can't supersede the state constitution.

 

I'd call it a "potentially meritorious argument."

 

Well the US District Court for the Eastern District of Louisiana sure thought it was valid.

 

Are you just practicing on us or do you think the court blew it?

[HexHead]

The courts said it was an illegal search and seizure.

 

There's the proof that they violated both 2nd and 4th Amendment rights.

 

t will continue to happen, even if we change the laws to be even stronger.

 

Many states have passed laws since Katrina specifically banning this from happening. Happily I live in one of them.

 

The guy with the badge, riot gear, bullet proof vest, training, and superior numbers will win against us every time.

 

That's exactly what the Russians thought when they invaded Afghanistan.