Arms smuggling

[Dave McReynolds]

My newspaper this morning had an article about the arrest of Viktor Bout, a Russian national, in Thailand, as part of an American led sting operation, on charges of smuggling missiles and rocket launchers to rebels in Columbia. Extradition to the US is being sought and Thai officials are apparently eager to be rid of him.

 

Nowhere in the article is any mention of crimes committed within the US. Do our laws allow prosecution for crimes committed by foreign nationals in other countries?

[Francois_Dumas]

Don't know about your laws (perhaps 'something to do with assisting Al Queda?), but he certainly is not an 'unknown'.... when you Google him you find a lot of 'interesting' links, such as this one : http://www.ruudleeuw.com/vbout00.htm

 

... and this: http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/contract/2004/0518bout.htm

[UberXY]

My newspaper this morning had an article about the arrest of Viktor Bout, a Russian national, in Thailand, as part of an American led sting operation, on charges of smuggling missiles and rocket launchers to rebels in Columbia. Extradition to the US is being sought and Thai officials are apparently eager to be rid of him.

 

Nowhere in the article is any mention of crimes committed within the US. Do our laws allow prosecution for crimes committed by foreign nationals in other countries?

 

They got him on a sting that would have ostensibly provided capabilities to shoot down "defoliation" helicopter missions in South America piloted by Americans. As I recall, there was some provision in the recent anti-terrorism legislation that protected US agents from criminal harm overseas.

[notacop]

You seem to forget the basic premis of our gov't. As long as you sell stuff to our side of the conflict, youse ok. As soon as you start to sell to our percieved enemies, youse is dead meat.

Saddam when he fought the Iranians had our help, later no. Iran was our buddy when fighting the Russians. Norieaga was our buddy until he started taking too much of the drug trade money. The list is really quite long but doesn't get much Murdock driven press.

Don't forget that the CIA exists to forment wars to our advantage and gets really irked when the sides switch affiliation.

It's really much to convoluted. Better to go to Torrey and burn up as much 4 dollar a gallon gasoline as possible to clear the mind.

[ericfoerster]

You seem to forget the basic premis of our gov't. As long as you sell stuff to our side of the conflict, youse ok. As soon as you start to sell to our percieved enemies, youse is dead meat.

Saddam when he fought the Iranians had our help, later no. Iran was our buddy when fighting the Russians. Norieaga was our buddy until he started taking too much of the drug trade money. The list is really quite long but doesn't get much Murdock driven press.

Don't forget that the CIA exists to forment wars to our advantage and gets really irked when the sides switch affiliation.

It's really much to convoluted.

 

That is the blueprint to our foreign policy. Any wonder people want to hurt us?

[Matts_12GS]

You seem to forget the basic premis of our gov't. As long as you sell stuff to our side of the conflict, youse ok. As soon as you start to sell to our percieved enemies, youse is dead meat.

Saddam when he fought the Iranians had our help, later no. Iran was our buddy when fighting the Russians. Norieaga was our buddy until he started taking too much of the drug trade money. The list is really quite long but doesn't get much Murdock driven press.

Don't forget that the CIA exists to forment wars to our advantage and gets really irked when the sides switch affiliation.

It's really much to convoluted. Better to go to Torrey and burn up as much 4 dollar a gallon gasoline as possible to clear the mind.

 

wow, a real black helicopter guy...

[DavidEBSmith]

Nowhere in the article is any mention of crimes committed within the US. Do our laws allow prosecution for crimes committed by foreign nationals in other countries?

 

The U.S. would have jurisdiction because he's accused of conspiracy to aid FARC in Columbia, which is a terrorist organization that directs its activities at the U.S. You can read the criminal complaint here (PDF) and more about it here . The law he's charged with violating is here and it gives the extraterritorial jurisdiction.

 

Note paragraph 23 of the complaint where one of the conspirators is complaining about all the spam on his email account making it hard to communicate with the other conspirators. It's kinda funny that these guys are trying to sell surface-to-air missiles to narco-terrorists and they're having to wade through spam trying to sell them p***s enlargement and V**gra.

[Mike]

You seem to forget the basic premis of our gov't. As long as you sell stuff to our side of the conflict, youse ok. As soon as you start to sell to our percieved enemies, youse is dead meat.

 

You're right . . . but that premise has always formed the basis of every nation's foreign policy. There is no altruism in foreign policy--ultimately, every country conducts its foreign affairs in the way that it thinks will ultimately afford it the maximum benefit. The U.S. is by no means alone in that approach, but we are unique--or at least in rarified company--in the sense that we have considerable power to enforce that principle.

 

Back to the OP's question: Yes, the U.S. does claim jurisdiction over many extraterritorial acts having an impact on the United States. It ultimately comes down to the question of whether we can establish an impact that gives us jurisdiction. I don't know anything about the story that he linked to, or the basis for the claim of jurisdiction in that case, but this is a concept well-established in international law and is consistent with the U.S. Constitution.

[Fugu]

That is the blueprint to our foreign policy. Any wonder people want to hurt us?

 

I hope you are not implying that terrorist attacks on this country are in any way justified by our foreign policy gaffes.

 

I'm also sure you are equally tuned into the amount of aid we give other countries, too - right?

[Francois_Dumas]

'Ere we go again.......

[ericfoerster]

I'm also sure you are equally tuned into the amount of aid we give other countries, too - right?

 

Sure, and that is a mitigating factor in what way?

[Fugu]

Sure, and that is a mitigating factor in what way?

 

If somebody is going to use our foreign policy as a basis to justify attacking us or deriding us in general, they should look at all of it, not just the ugly parts, that's all.

 

Would you mind answering the first question?

[Mike]

'Ere we go again.......

 

No wonder your head hurts.

 

We're starting to move a bit off course (aided by my post). Let's try to keep the thread on topic, which was the extraterritorial application of U.S. criminal law.

[Fugu]

If any of you want to read the complaint and the basis for the charges- here it is:

 

http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/crim/usbout22708cmp.html

 

 

I have no problem with taking this guy down.

 

I don't see how anybody could think we should just turn a blind eye to a guy with assets and associates in the US (hell, he's worked for us shipping stuff- I wonder if anything he's selling was 'lost' off one of our shipments...), selling armor piercing rockets and surface to air missiles to terrorists in South America with the intent to attack US interests and/ or US allies and trade partners just because it didn't all happen on our soil.

 

I leave it to somebody with the legal acumen to discuss the laws, but taking this guy down is the right thing to do.

[Dave McReynolds]

I have no problem with taking this guy down.

 

I don't really have any problem with it either; I was just unaware that it could be done through the US courts.

 

As an example in the other direction, I believe the Italian courts would like to visit with a couple of our CIA agents who snatched someone off the streets of Italy. As far as I know, we're not turning them over.

 

Clearly, we do a lot of things we consider to be in our national interest, up to and including invading other countries. I just wasn't aware that you could violate a US law that would get you in front of a US judge if you were a foreign citizen doing something in a foreign country. But now I know. My interest was not to be provocative, merely informative, but let the discussion go wherever it will (within the bounds of our rules, of course).

[Fugu]

I believe the Italian courts would like to visit with a couple of our CIA agents who snatched someone off the streets of Italy.

 

Was it these guys?

 

[Mike]

I just wasn't aware that you could violate a US law that would get you in front of a US judge if you were a foreign citizen doing something in a foreign country.

 

I work for the USDOJ and many of the people we indict did their dirty deeds outside U.S. territory. It's enough that their conduct has an effect inside the United States. Of course, it's not always easy to get them here for trial or to serve a sentence after they've been charged.