z-technic muffler lasts only 30K miles??

[daveinatlanta]

I have a Z-4000 clip-on muffler and I've noticed that my exhaust seems to be getting louder. I wrote to Z-technic and got the following response from Z-Technic:

 

"The packing in the exhaust will eventually "burn up" and the exhaust will become louder. The expected life of the exhaust is about 30,000 miles. This is true of almost all motorcycle exhausts. Since the exhaust is sealed, there is no way to repack it."

 

From this one would conclude that any bike with more than 30K has lost a lot of the silencing capability. Yet I ride with people who have stock mufflers on high mileage bikes and they still have a quiet sound. Is the stock muffler design that much different than the after market stuff?

[flat_twin]

Yes they're that much different. No repacking needed for the stock exhaust. Staintune and Remus systems don't require repacking either.

I think the worst Oilhead exhaust system I heard was a BMP on a R11GS that had pretty much blown all the packing out.

[Deadboy]

There is usually a rivet you can drill out and then buy some re-packing material. Dirt bike guys do this regularly...not reason I can think of it would work the same on your pipe...a quick search showed these two links, I am sure their are plenty more to look at if you look for em.

 

http://www.cbrforum.com/m_17236/tm.htm

 

http://www.danddexhaust.com/news/2007/02/ask_mr_dd_repac.htm

[Tony_K]

Dave, your SOL with the Ztechnik can.

I just looked at the can on their web site and it is a completely welded shut unit (as you also stated). Looks real good but as "they" said it's a one shot deal.

 

Your 600 bucks buys a one trick pony.

[OoPEZoO]

Dave, your SOL with the Ztechnik can.

I just looked at the can on their web site and it is a completely welded shut unit (as you also stated). Looks real good but as "they" said it's a one shot deal.

 

Your 600 bucks buys a one trick pony.

 

Buying a one trick pony would be fine as long as it doesn't drop over dead after that first trick

[John844]

The factory has made the pipe harder to repack, but not impossible. As a last resort, you might try to repack the one you have. I have not done this on your model muffler, and it could possibly get ruined by trying this. You might have a replacement muffler available in case this fails.

 

There are two possible ways I would consider trying. One is to cut the shell towards the end of the pipe. Use a die grinder with a thin cutoff wheel. Leave enough room to add a sleeve to the inside of the muffler, so you can rivet it back together after repacking. An inch or two should be plenty. If you can't find a sleeve the correct diameter, you can cut a strip of sheet metal or aluminum and make your own.

 

The second option would be to try to grind off the weld at the end of the muffler. If the end cap was made to slip into the tubing to be welded or riveted, you could then rivet it back together after repacking. If there is no internal sleeve, you would have to weld it back together and it would look bad. Before grinding the weld off, you might be able to drill one hole where you would place a rivet towards the end. If there are two layers of material, it could indicate this method would work. If there is only one, you could reseal the hole with a rivet and resort to the first method mentioned.

 

Make sure to make the muffler air tight by adding high temp RTF sealant to the joint as you close it up.

 

This sounds like a hassle, but I would at least try it before purchasing another one. The chrome will discolor when you grind on it. Try to keep the heat to a minimum and cut slowly. Minor discoloration can be polished back out.

 

Good luck

[Tony_K]

Do you really think he is going to do this?

Seriously... really???

[OoPEZoO]

Do you really think he is going to do this?

Seriously... really???

 

ehh.....why not. I went to all the trouble of cutting my exhaust open and removing my Catalyst element......why wouldn't someone else want to open a muffler and repack it? I sure as hell wouldn't do it, but I'm sure there are some people out there that are extra concerned with a quiet exhaust and don't want to fork over the $$$ for a new pipe. I can respect that.

 

I still can't believe that exhaust isn't repackable considering its price of admission. Seems like a poor business practice to me, but then again I expect things to last forever.

[Tony_K]

Keith, you should know your type here is in the minority... young and willing to get your hands dirty.

 

The typical BMW consumer is just that a consumer.

 

Cutting into a fully welded and polished high end stainless steel exhaust is not a option for a consumer.

 

Dave's exhaust is a bit louder but it still functions and looks great.

 

Both those pluses may not be the case after hack job to drop a few decibles.

 

So getting back to John844's suggestion...

I don't think that would be a option for Dave

[OoPEZoO]

Keith, you should know your type here is in the minority... young and willing to get your hands dirty.

 

I'll take that as a compliment

[Tony_K]

As you should!

[John844]

Before spending that kind of money on another throw away unit, I would definitely try it. At that point you have nothing to lose. If it ends up looking like a hack job, buy another one. We repack our dirt bike silencers every year and the sound dampening is very noticable before and after.

 

I was under the impression that the members here got their hands dirty on a regular basis servicing our bikes.

 

It would only look like a hack job if they wanted it to or they tried to rush it. With a little attention to detail, it would not be apparent to anyone unless they knew it was supposed to be welded shut. It would just end up looking like a seam where the end cap was attached.

 

It was just an idea to give Dave another option that would cost him $20 instead of $600. I would not even consider doing this to something he still wanted to use. It would only be an option to attempt as a last resort.

[T__]

~clip~. Is the stock muffler design that much different than the after market stuff?

 

Dave, yes in most cases a big difference.. Stock mufflers use steel baffles & reverse gas flow to quiet the exhaust note.. Most aftermarket performance mufflers use a somewhat straight through design with some type of acoustic packing to absorb the exhaust note.. (that is what gives them lower exhaust back pressure).. That packing can vary form cheap fiberglass,, to ceramic wool (very expensive),, to a steel wool type material, to a stainless steel type steel wool,, to other exotic materials..

 

In most cases that muffler PACAKING has a finite life (in your case you found that life cycle) ..

 

A lot of aftermarket mufflers do come apart to repack them (usually ones with cheaper absorption material)..

 

On your exhaust (noise) issue you might check to see if your muffler supplier offers a PRE-muffler (goes where the catalytic converter went) .. In a lot of cases those can knock the DB down enough that you can live with a louder muffler & still have a decent exhaust note..

 

Twisty

[Fugu]

"The packing in the exhaust will eventually "burn up" and the exhaust will become louder. The expected life of the exhaust is about 30,000 miles.

 

Am I missing something?

 

Their website says:

 

The ZTechnik Z4000 Stainless Steel Slip-On enhances the riding experience for R1150RT, R1150RS, R1100GS and R1100R owners. The exhaust features a stainless steel muffler that never needs repacking, and mounts with enough clearance to utilize the stock BMW saddlebags.

 

It's not linkable, go to http://www.ztechnik.com/products/index.html

 

Then click R series RT on the left, then stainless steel slip on eurosport canister - that's the Z4000.

 

I'd be beating Ztechnik over the head with this advertisement were this my problem.

[Tony_K]

Seems like they have covered their ass both ways. Never needs repacking and the life span is 30k. Both are true statements as far as I can tell.

 

We all know only a fool would log 30k miles on a motorcycle!

 

 

And one more time about cutting this unit open.

 

IF he lived in CUBA and that was the ONLY can available ever again then yes cutting it open is a option.

 

Personally I would take the 350 to 450 dollars I made selling it on the secondary market and be happy with the 30k I logged with it and move on.

 

Hands only dirty with filthy money.

[Fugu]

Seems like they have covered their ass both ways. Never needs repacking and the life span is 30k. both are true statements as far as I can tell.

 

New disposable lighters never need refilling!

 

That's just low. Ztechnik, you suck.

 

 

 

 

Can anybody name another muffler that wears out and is not serviceable? I can't think of one.

[ShovelStrokeEd]

Just throw the can from a mid-range, age wise, VFR on it. You might have to do a little adapting here and there but any competent muffler shop ought to be able to fix you right up. The shiny side winds up on the inside but, a drill motor and some polishing compound can fix that right up. Should be able to find one for next to nothing and maybe $100 to do the adapting. That thing should last forever and is a good match, flow wise, to a stock can.

[Matts_12GS]

Just throw the can from a mid-range, age wise, VFR on it. You might have to do a little adapting here and there but any competent muffler shop ought to be able to fix you right up. The shiny side winds up on the inside but, a drill motor and some polishing compound can fix that right up. Should be able to find one for next to nothing and maybe $100 to do the adapting. That thing should last forever and is a good match, flow wise, to a stock can.

 

What he said! I got one from a 2000 model VFR on eBay for $25 shipped.

[daveinatlanta]

Thx for the comments. Interesting that Z-Technic advertises their muffler as 'repacking not required' and this is essentially the same language as Remus and Staintune. The missing part of the story -- packing not required ('cause it can't be done)

 

I recall in the 60s, some drivers would remove their stock, baffled and chambered car mufflers and replace them with 'glass-packs.' Much lighter than stock and, usually louder. The fiberglass would eventually deteriorate. Believe we have a similar situation here.

 

As for me, I'll live with the marginally louder Z-technic for a while longer -- while I look at BeemerBoneyard for a discarded stock muffler!

[Tony_K]

Dave, I assume you have the"decible killer" (their words) installed still?

 

You know if you put the exhaust on the open market you could get 6 to 10 stock exhausts in return (they don't sell for much). Do a trade with cash sale.

Two birds, one stone. You will have it sold in less than a day!

[Kurt Snyder]

I had the same issue last year. I was very unhappy with Z-Tech and told them so. I purchased the unit because they advertised it never needed repacking. Z-Tech offered me a new unit for half price. I passed on the offer. I'm considering trying to install a sleeve on the Z-Tech to allow repacking. The Z-tech without the packing was 110 decibles at 3000 rpm when checked in NH, very loud. I currently have the factory system on the bike. I had a Two Brothers prior to the Z-Tech but it was a piece of junk. I had to repack around 5-6000 miles along with poor build quality. I believe all the aftermarket mufflers will require repacking at some time. Z-Tech said they were working on a new system but would not elaborate.

[daveinatlanta]

Dave, I assume you have the"decible killer"

Huh? Can't hear you??

Seriously - yes it is in there. When I first got the bike, I took it out, went for 10 minute ride, and promptly put it back in. It sounded ok - not as loud as modded V-twin - but I just didn't want to ride 500 miles with that drone.

 

You know if you put the exhaust on the open market you could get 6 to 10 stock exhausts in return

Good point. Perhaps some recent Harley to BMW convert will want it!

[rob1100r]

ehh.....why not. I went to all the trouble of cutting my exhaust open and removing my Catalyst element.....

 

That's what I was going to try, but went with the ZTech anyway....when it starts to anoy me, my stock, well built exhaust that is sitting on a shelf is gonna get the chop chop!

[OoPEZoO]

ehh.....why not. I went to all the trouble of cutting my exhaust open and removing my Catalyst element.....

 

That's what I was going to try, but went with the ZTech anyway....when it starts to anoy me, my stock, well built exhaust that is sitting on a shelf is gonna get the chop chop!

 

My bike took the initial plunge of developing a 6-7" crack in the exhaust right where the neck connects to the Cat converter........I figured that was as good a time as any to cut it open and remove it. The only real noticable difference since doing it is that I get an occational (maybe 1 per ride) backfire from the exhaust when decellerating down to a stop. On the plus side, the bike is MUCH MUCH MUCH more manageable now in low RPM/low speed situations. It used to be kinda herky jerky at parking lot and neighborhoood speeds, now it is much smoother.

[rsjockey]

I purchased a used one and had a similar situation. The canister sounded like it had sand rolling around inside.

I called Z-technik and threw out the "Never needs repacking" line. They asked me to send in the canister for evaluation and they would consider a replacement. I put the stock exhaust back on the bike while I thought about it. I eventually sent it in on a gamble. They told me they would sell me a show room canister (only) for $275. I whined enough and got it down to $200. In the end I ended up with a new cannister for about half the cost of a new one and that includes what I paid for the used exhaust in the first place.

I think their advertising is BS but I am happy with the product for now. It looks good, sounds good, and it seems to have a smidge more mid range punch. If it gets loud I would try to open it up.

I would like to see a picture of the VFR can fitted to a BMW like a few posts mentioned.

[rob1100r]

Keith, I remember you posting those pics. I did the exhaust mainy to reduce heat, and the 10 pound weight reduction....Okay, I wanted a LITTLE sound too I may butcher the stock exhaust soon just as a project..

[daveinatlanta]

An update. I've had several email exchanges with Z-Technik and there seems to be some willingness to at least have a dialog about the issue. We'll see what, if anything, develops.

[daveinatlanta]

Here's the final status of the apparently worn-out muffler

 

As a refresher, I have a 2004 1150 RT with the subject muffler installed. The bike has 40K miles on it and the subject muffler was on it when I got it at 27K miles. I really don’t know how long the previous owner had it on the bike. Over the last few months, I thought it had been getting louder and I could not understand this since the manufacturer widely advertises this muffler as “a stainless steel muffler that never needs repacking.”

 

So, assuming it did not need repacking, I sent an email to the manufacturer asking about the life of the muffler and why it would seem to me to be getting louder.

 

Here is an excerpt from the manufacturer’s response: "The packing in the exhaust will eventually "burn up" and the exhaust will become louder. The expected life of the exhaust is about 30,000 miles. This is true of almost all motorcycle exhausts. Since the exhaust is sealed, there is no way to repack it.”

 

So – now we have a new definition of ‘never:’ 30,000 miles!

 

At this point I wondered if BMW should say their bikes never need refueling. A great marketing idea. With gas at $3.30 or so would that not move a lot of bikes out of the showroom? (Until they're returned 250 miles later.)

 

But I digress.

 

I then asked the manufacturer why they say in their advertisement that it 'never needs repacking.'

 

I got an email containing the following: "If an exhaust uses packing material to absorb sound (as opposed to mechanical only baffles), it will eventually need to be repacked or replaced. In the case of the [subject muffler], it uses a long lasting packing material that does not need to be replaced every 5,000-10,000 miles as with other exhausts. This was the intent of the text on the website."

 

Well – that is certainly instructive. I guess that means if you have a bike with ‘other exhausts’ you *will* have to change the muffler. When you change your tires.

 

What a concept! I wonder if Southwest Moto Tires should offer a tire and muffler bundle? They could market is as “Two-Metzlers-and-a Muffler!”

 

At this point I also concluded that further substantive discussion about any wording conflict between a) the interpretation of their product ads and b) how they later reinterpret their ads when the product fails to perform as advertised --- would be fruitless. Arguing about the meaning of ‘never’ is about as productive as arguing about the meaning of ‘is.

 

But wait!

 

The manufacturer’s representative subsequently followed up his prior emails with another email that contained the following statement: " I will have the wording on the website changed. Never is not a good word to use in advertising."

 

Exact words. I can’t make this up.

 

The manufacturer’s rep even offered to sell me the same $600 30,000 mile muffler at an astounding 20% discount. Such a temptation. Now I’m faced with a really tough decision: Now that I have a clearer understanding of this manufacturer and how they stand behind their products, should I accept this wonderful deal?

 

[Fugu]

Don't let these weasels off the hook.

[kiwiaudio]

Keith, would you explain further on what you did to your stock cat? If i'm guessing right, you removed the guts and refitted it. I've done a similar thing with an old renault when that cat plugged up, but I welded a straight pipe through the middle of the cat - really freed that engine up!

 

I'm wondering if the same idea is feasable on my RT, but I'm hesitant about it being too loud. Mind you, I'm a little tired of the moped like factory sound !

 

Ooops, never mind - I found your post with all the pictures of the cat work after a little searching. I think I would have welded a pipe throught that baby, but I'd stil like your opinion on the sound.

 

What other things have people done to the stock exhaust to make it sound less like "mouse farts"

(Love that term!)

[T__]

Mark, I have been running my 1150RT with a gutted cat for quite some time now.. No difference is exhaust noise going down the road,, no droning or booming.. About the only audible change is a little more putt/putt-ing at street idle.. No change in performance either.. The stock system isn’t all that restrictive & even with the production system the restrictive part is the muffler not the catalytic converter..

 

I gutted it more for heat (didn’t like all the heat under the transmission) & allowing me to run a richer mixture across the board without asking the cat to handle more..

 

If you want performance then gutting the cat will not make you happy by itself.. It will allow more fuel tuning options though & that can gain you more power (especially top speed)

 

I didn’t weld a pipe in mine but just gutted the innards through a 7/8” hole in the L/H side of the cat housing (took about 4 hours of intense operations though).. went in through the 7/8” hole with different instruments & rotary devices then poured the cat inner bed & catalyst pieces out through the cat’s inlet pipe..

 

You really can’t tell the cat was altered by looking at it..

 

 

Twisty

[Ken H.]

should I accept this wonderful deal?

Do I really even need to type out what my suggestion would be?

[OoPEZoO]

The sound and performance is pretty much like Twisty said.......It is a little "poppier" at idle, and a tiny bit lower tone while at speed. I was out riding with my Dad this past weekend and he said that he didn't notice if it was any louder. If it was obnoxious......I never would have heard the end of it.

 

I have NOT noticed any performance gains at the mid or high range, but there were two very noticable overall improvements

 

1. my hesitation, pinging, knocking, bucket of rattling bolts sound that was always there is now 100% gone. It used to happen like clockwork everytime I whacked the throttle wide open (any gear, any RPM). It was OK if I rolled it on slowly, but it used to make a ton of noise if I just twisted it wide open. Now I can be as agressive as I want with the throttle and the bike runs great.

 

2. The low speed throttle control has drasticly improved. I never thought of my bike having any surging issues, but poking along under 25 mph in 1rst & 2nd gear was always very herky jerky. No matter how smooth my throttle hand was, it always felt screwy. Now it is so smooth that I can roll along in 1rst gear during heavy traffic without touching the gas or clutch. That would have been impossible before.

 

The only negative effect I've had is that I get an occational backfire, but this only happens rarely (maybe once per ride and only during certain conditions). Like when I am coming down a hill to a stop sign and I let off the throttle, allowing the engines compression to slow me down. I'm sure this is mostly due to me screwing up the flow of exhaust, as it now flows into a big empty chamber instead of being directed into the muffler. I thought about installing a pipe through the chamber, but it really just seemed like to much work. Other than that....I would say it was a successfull experiment. At some point I might replace it with a cat eliminator pipe and a VFR muffler, but for the time being......it is staying like it is.

 

Edit: BTW......Twisty......any chance I could drop my bike off to be cleaned? I don't think there is one square inch of my entire bike that is even as clean as the underside of your engine.

[daveinatlanta]

Do I really even need to type out what my suggestion would be?

Let's see -- diameter of muffler is about 6-8 inches. I don't think it is anatomically possible.

[Ken H.]

Do I really even need to type out what my suggestion would be?

Let's see -- diameter of muffler is about 6-8 inches. I don't think it is anatomically possible.

No, no, I was being nicer than that! - Put the stock one back on was going to be my suggestion! You know - my sig. line!

[daveinatlanta]

Put the stock one back on was going to be my suggestion!

I would if I had it. I bought the bike used and it had the replacement on it - but I did not get the original. I've been looking in beemerboneyard for one but no luck yet.

[kiwiaudio]

Keith is right Twisty, that bike is way too clean!

I suspect it is the result of tinkering during the long Michigan winter!

Interesting that the cat does not seem restrictive, especially given the internal 90deg turn. Also that it does not do much quieting, as I fully expected it to do.

Hmmmm......

After reading both your experiences, I think I'll be leaving it alone, although Keith's driveability improvements are definitely desirable!

Maybe I'll make a cat replacement pipe one day and see how that goes. I wonder if anyone is making these ?

[T__]

Keith is right Twisty, that bike is way too clean!

I suspect it is the result of tinkering during the long Michigan winter!

Interesting that the cat does not seem restrictive, especially given the internal 90deg turn. Also that it does not do much quieting, as I fully expected it to do.

Hmmmm......

After reading both your experiences, I think I'll be leaving it alone, although Keith's driveability improvements are definitely desirable!

Maybe I'll make a cat replacement pipe one day and see how that goes. I wonder if anyone is making these ?

 

Mark, yes that is a winter project I clean all my bikes up through the winter.. Not this last winter though (that is an older picture).. I spent most of this winter working on my Ducati..

 

Keith obviously noted an improvement.. My guess that is either due to the fact his converter was partially plugged or other things that were done or changed during the converter removal.. Maybe even re-routing of the 02 sensor wire (if that is tie strapped too tightly or running close to a spark plug wire it can really alter the 02 performance)

 

Removing exhaust restriction helps top end & high RPM high load power but shouldn’t have effected low RPM surge or tip in runability.. As a matter of fact the converter can break up exhaust negative waves & actually improve low RPM engine smoothness..

 

I’m not saying Keith’s engine doesn’t run better I am suggesting it isn’t because of the converter gutting itself (unless it was plugged or plugging)..

 

Twisty

[OoPEZoO]

I wonder if anyone is making these ?

 

They are out there......most of the companies that make aftermarket exhausts for the RT have them. The ones I've seen even have the O2 bung already installed.......but I haven't found a used one yet for what I consider an acceptable price. I'm a bargain shopper and one hell of a cheap bastard . I also have just considered having one made for me at a local exhaust shop. It would be easy for them to do, but I don't NEED to do it so it keeps getting put off till later. The other catch is that you then also need to replace the muffler to a slip on style. That obviously can be a crap shoot as well. One of these days maybe.

 

I’m not saying Keith’s engine doesn’t run better I am suggesting it isn’t because of the converter gutting itself (unless it was plugged or plugging)..

 

Yup, and thats why I'm not running around telling everyone to gut their cats . There are a lot of variables.......including the fact that my exhaust had that huge crack it it. That also could have had en effect on how the bike was running, and I have NO idea how long I was riding it like that.

[g_nuse]

It seems that either you should either contact the next level to get a reasonable solution or start sending emails to Germany.

 

If you want to keep the nice, light, sporty sounding exhaust, there are plenty of talented welders in the Atlanta area. I can help direct you if you want to go in that direction. Have a fabricator open it up, repack it, and weld it back up....probably for less than a used stock exhaust.

 

I don't know if you have ever weighed a stock vs canister system, but it is dramatic.

 

I hope I haven't missed the point of this thread....was it about a manufacturer standing behind their product and claims or you looking for a solution?

[rsjockey]

I'm still really interested in seeing pics of a VFR pipe on a BMW. How does that work?

[Rich06FJR1300]

i had a ztechnik pipe on my RT back when i had it and remember there was a screw at the back of the muffler that you could take out and that enable you to repack the system. Did they do away with this?

[Francis]

I would recommend that you build the 2-Bro-VFR combo that has been written up on this site. You buy the 2-Bros connector pipe and get a VFR muffler off of e-bay. A muffler shop can fabricate a connector to mate these two units together. Total cost should be under $ 200.00. I had this combo on my 1100RT and am about to build another for my 1150RT. The 2-Bros connector pipe has a nipple in it so you can retain your air sensor unit.

 

This set-up is easy to produce and allows you to replace the muffler when it gets too loud at a very nominal cost. The plans on this site lay out the materials you'll need and the construction technique very simply and straight worward.

[daveinatlanta]

i had a ztechnik pipe on my RT back when i had it and remember there was a screw at the back of the muffler that you could take out and that enable you to repack the system. Did they do away with this?

Yes and no. The screw is still there but it simply allows you to remove the sleeve that is called the "decibel killer" which is nothing more than a pipe about 10" long with a number of holes drilled in it. In other words - a baffle. Once it is out - it is LOUDER. But you can't get at the packing material by removing it since there is another pipe within a larger pipe and, between the two is the packing material.

[daveinatlanta]

I can help direct you if you want to go in that direction. Have a fabricator open it up, repack it, and weld it back up....probably for less than a used stock exhaust.

I'll send you a PM.

I hope I haven't missed the point of this thread....was it about a manufacturer standing behind their product and claims or you looking for a solution?

Both.