Wah, my drill instructor broke my razor . . .

[Firefight911]

You have got to be kidding me!!!!!

 

LINKY

 

Defend our nation, sacrifice your life, your family sacrifice, but just DO NOT break my toiletry kit.

 

Yea, yea, yea, I know, there's more to the story but give me a break!!!!

 

I still have the scars from my drill instructor. I got in HIS way, he shoved me out of it. I broke the window in the barracks. Perhaps I should have complained???

[dewtwo]

Must be the softer side of the marine corp.

[Lawman]

I still have the scars from my drill instructor. I got in HIS way, he shoved me out of it. I broke the window in the barracks. Perhaps I should have complained???

 

Phil,

I think not. I think we, as a nation, are just a wee little bit better off that you didn't ..

[Christian_rider]

Times are changing and the winers are winning more often than not. Can not teach to be tough have to ask to do it with all to many things in mind to keep from offending an ever increasing amount of special intrest groups. MASH (make a sailor hurt) cycling and so many of the other common military things have turned to touchy feely need a rag kinda stuff. Society bends so easily and has become more accepting of bending to please, that the youth become increasingly pushy knowing they can get their way! Give an inch they will take a mile. I am not that old but I am relating more and more to the things my Grandfather shared while fishing on such subjects. Wish I could talk to him now as he was right after all. To be hard and strict is to much to handle for to many in so many walks of life.

[Matts_12GS]

Pretty darn sad.

I can remember going to play "Indoor Tennis" at the Great Mistake a couple nights, and a few mornings of company PT before chow because some in the company had issues focusing on making their racks or getting dressed quickly enough.

 

I'd be amazed if you can still do blackout drills in berthing compartments or any of the great milestone events (blue nose, shellback, etc) without having to risk getting your hand slapped or your A$$ sued by some nimrod...

[Shaman97]

Sounds like he had a lousy lawyer. Six months in the brig, a DD, no pay, and reduction from Sgt to Pvt. If memory serves, he got the max possible according to the UCMJ.

Hard to buy that his Seniors didn't know this stuff (minor from my Boot experience)was occurring.

I don't see that the problem rested with the recruits (they always will complain) but with the administration of the UCMJ toward enlisted personnel. When a commissioned officer commits an act such as this, he gets an unfavorable entry into his record that effectively will end his career. Therefore, he'll resign and leave the service. Enlisteds? throw 'em in the brig, and have them declare bankruptcy because they can no longer pay their bills.

[CoarsegoldKid]

What's waterbowling? The article states that it was banned. So if it was banned then the drill instructor broke the law. Following the code of law is what makes military men mentally strong in addition to their physical strength. It's why military men unflinchingly perform commands civilians like me don't understand. It's why the US military man is tops. Maybe I'm alone on this one.

[Twisties]

They also said Glass and another drill instructor forced them after meals to down liters of water in a ritual known as "waterbowling," an act banned by the Marine Corps' standard operations procedure manual.

 

This is quite serious. We've had a number of deaths in Utah due to this sort of thing. Recently there was a national case where a radio station contest resulted in a death.

[ShovelStrokeEd]

Razor????

Mine broke my jaw.

Things sure have changed since 1962.

[Dave McReynolds]

A balance always has to be sought in these matters. I joined the Marines in 1964, shortly after an incident happened at Parris Island where a DI marched a platoon of boots into the swamp at night and a few of them didn't make it back. So the Marines were beginning to crack down on DI's, but apparently the first two we got hadn't gotten the word, because they were relieved after some reports of unnecessary roughness.

 

I remember the first morning when one of the DI's who were subsequently relieved "marched" us in a loose formation to the chow hall from the receiving barracks, shortly before daybreak. After breakfast, we were supposed to fall in on the blacktop outside the chow hall, but of course none of us really knew how to do that, so again we were standing around in a loose formation, when the DI came out of the chow hall. I guess I caught his eye, because he strode over to me with an evil look in his eye, took a few running steps, and gave me a flying kick in the belly. It looked awful, and I flinched backwards and lost my balance in anticipation, but in reality he had pulled the kick at the last moment and his foot just touched my belly. It did get the attention of the other boots, however, and they were very attentive to his words after that. I never said anything about the kick to the other boots or anyone else, as my main motivation was to maintain a low profile. The DI was observed later by some officer doing some similar thing, which led to his dismissal. I don't believe any of us boots reported him, and we were in fact sorry to see him go. Based on my own experience, he knew how to instill fear without being brutal about it.

 

In fact, afterwards we became somewhat of a pariah platoon because of having our DI's relieved. The final DI's they assigned worked us extra hard because of it and we captured more than our share of awards.

 

I would say there is a lot of difference between marching more people into the swamp than you march out, and pulling a kick at a boot's stomach. But I guess it's difficult for an officer to see at a distance which is which. In fact, later on with our new set of DI's, while on the rifle range, we used to do hundreds of situps with our backs extended out in the air and our feet hooked into the pipes in a big concrete sink arrangement they had between the barracks. The DI's would wander up and down the line pummeling our stomachs with some kind of a club or something, to see how our stomach muscles were coming along, and that hurt a lot worse than the drop kick, but was just accepted as a normal part of physical training.

 

They aren't training these folks to go out into an inner city neighborhood and counsel the youthful offenders; they're training them to kill people and break things. The DI's have a tough time exposing the boots to enough violence to do the job, without going over the line and injuring or killing them. And I'm sure the officers have a tough time making that call, also.

[russell_bynum]

They aren't training these folks to go out into an inner city neighborhood and counsel the youthful offenders; they're training them to kill people and break things. The DI's have a tough time exposing the boots to enough violence to do the job, without going over the line and injuring or killing them. And I'm sure the officers have a tough time making that call, also.

 

Well said...I think that's the big issue here.

[George Brown]

Where was this DI when I needed him? -- seems like an OK guy compared to the ones I had. But that was in what is now, I'm sure, refered to as the "Old Corps"

[Semper_Fi]

They aren't training these folks to go out into an inner city neighborhood and counsel the youthful offenders; they're training them to kill people and break things. The DI's have a tough time exposing the boots to enough violence to do the job, without going over the line and injuring or killing them. And I'm sure the officers have a tough time making that call, also.

 

That fairly well cpatures what we are asking of our new recruits and burdens we expect them to bear. But we as a society are steadily softening and ebbing of some very basic things which is what we see here.

 

I went thru the Corps and it was an outstanding experience. Did I have some tough times in boot camp, yeah no $hit - that's a given. Did I learn anything - too many to list some of the main ones, honesty, character, team work, preseverance.

 

It is the best thing I did and would recommend it to any of our youth - but let them (all the Drill Instructors and others of the various services) do what they need to do to train if not they are just be filling body bags - which is what they are trying to prevent.

 

Harsh yes, but look at the world around us.

 

Luis

[RonStewart]

... So if it was banned then the drill instructor broke the law. .... Maybe I'm alone on this one.

You are not alone.

[JSW]

... So if it was banned then the drill instructor broke the law. .... Maybe I'm alone on this one.

You are not alone.

 

+1

[steve.foote]

... So if it was banned then the drill instructor broke the law. .... Maybe I'm alone on this one.

You are not alone.

 

+1

 

+2 When you have a conviction on so many counts, and administrative discipline of two other supervisors, there may be some fire under that cloud of smoke.

[Mike]

Defend our nation, sacrifice your life, your family sacrifice, but just DO NOT break my toiletry kit.

 

Yea, yea, yea, I know, there's more to the story but give me a break!!!!

 

Here's a little more, as reported by Military Times:

 

"Choked. Kicked. Slapped. Jabbed in the neck. Punched in the face. Hit on the head with a flashlight.

 

"Bruised and beaten with a tent pole. Ordered to drink two, three, even four canteens of water just minutes after eating dinner, and then lie in their own vomit."

 

If you'd like to read a little more from military members' perspective, including that of some DIs, take a look at http://www.militarytimes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1560643 .

[ghaverkamp]

I thought this was telling:

 

In recounting the actions of their DI, some of the young leathernecks testifying Wednesday at Sgt. Jerrod Glass’ general court-martial prefaced what happened to them by explaining that they weren’t fast enough, moved too slowly, had lost gear, were confused or unprepared, even looked where they shouldn’t have looked.

. . .

None of Glass’ former recruits reported the alleged abuse until early February, after another DI questioned some of them about one recruit’s facial bruises.

 

Based on the Military Times story, those who've been bashing the recruits should probably have found out more first.

[Dave McReynolds]

As I said in my earlier post, a balance needs to be reached. Not an easy thing to achieve.

 

As the priesthood attracts its share of pedophiles, the Marines attracts its share of sadists who would like to be DI's. Both situations place people in positions where they can exert influence and power over those under their authority.

 

But aside from outright sadists, who may enter the picture at any time, it is interesting to me that most of these incidents occur after periods of conflict, where the DI's themselves have recent combat experience. I would assume a fair number of DI's accused of violence against recruits are not sadists (at least by Marine Corps standards) but are simply doing what they believe necessary to prepare recruits for combat.

 

I don't see how forcing someone to drink water until they vomit could ever be construed as preparing someone for combat, and would just be a demoralizing experience completely contrary to the goal of building esprit. On the other hand, people who are headed for combat should know what it's like to be hit and bruised, to the point that it isn't a big deal for them. As I say, not an easy balance to achieve.

[Firefight911]

Based on the Military Times story, those who've been bashing the recruits should probably have found out more first.

 

I really haven't seen a lot of this "bashing" going on. I even prefaced my post by stating that I know that there is a lot more to the story than we read in the article I cited.

 

That being said, I don't condone a blatant disregard for policy, procedure, and law. Just ask anyone who knows me and my black and white view on things. However, the military is not a day camp for people who want to suckle the government teet. It is a fighting force with a simple mission, defend this nation. That may mean a life sacrificed - their own life.

 

Those who have posted have been those who have served. There is a clear difference of understanding for those who have served vs. those who have not served.

 

I am not discounting anyones opinion or viewpoint, but there IS a difference when you have taken the oath to potentially lay down your life for a nation you believe in.

 

Set the diet coke down, go run 15 miles with a full pack on, in boots and utes, low crawl the sand pit, and then go over and qualify your rifle from the prone position at 500 meters with iron sights only and your own windage adjustment. And I expect to see a dime grouping with your first three shots and in the black.

 

You think you can do it when you can't even put the uniform on properly?

 

Again, I am not condoning the tactics if they were in violation as stated above, but I sure as heck am not going to ask nicely and I most certainly won't ask twice.

[Huzband]

Those who have posted have been those who have served. There is a clear difference of understanding for those who have served vs. those who have not served.

 

EXACTLY why I haven't responded.

 

I didn't serve (regret), but I have the utmost respect for those that did, or currently do.

 

I would never be so presumptuous to second guess any of them.

[ghaverkamp]

I really haven't seen a lot of this "bashing" going on. I even prefaced my post by stating that I know that there is a lot more to the story than we read in the article I cited.

 

Start with the title and go from there. They were crybabies from the start. The clear implication was that the recruits weren't tough enough to take it, unlike all those who'd pass through -- I'm sorry, "served" -- before. Of course, it turned out not to be the recruits that couldn't tolerate the behavior, but another drill instructor.

 

I am not discounting anyones opinion or viewpoint, but there IS a difference when you have taken the oath to potentially lay down your life for a nation you believe in.

 

Set the diet coke down, go run 15 miles with a full pack on, in boots and utes, low crawl the sand pit, and then go over and qualify your rifle from the prone position at 500 meters with iron sights only and your own windage adjustment. And I expect to see a dime grouping with your first three shots and in the black.

 

You think you can do it when you can't even put the uniform on properly?

 

I didn't suggest that life in boot camp isn't tough or that recruits shouldn't be treated harshly. I understand that it's part of the process. In fact, what I did was criticize those who were so eager to jump on these recruits as soft, recounting how they had it worse and were apparently somehow tougher. There is a difference.

 

I didn't claim to be able to accomplish the physical feats you described. None of that changes just because one takes an oath; I happen to know this, because I have taken the oath to defend my country, and I have the discharge papers to prove it. That doesn't mean I ever saw anything like these Marines had to be trained to see.

 

Even if I refuse to set down my Diet Coke and can't run 15 miles with a full pack on, I do know how to read. And these trainees, without any details, were accused of filing the complaints leading to the prosecution, of being soft, and of being whiners. These are volunteer recruits, who enlisted knowing where they are likely to be going after their training. The recruits didn't set out to see the instructor punished; instead, they took his apparently serious abuse. In my mind, they're to be respected.

 

However, if having served means that you feel they should be belittled for going to court and rationalizing the abuse they have since been informed is illegal, then more power to you. I just think those guys are deserving of a little more respect than that. I guess if I had actually served, I'd understand that only those who'd already done their service were worthy of it.

[steve.foote]

Greg, you and I don't often agree on things, but we're on the same page here. I have served and one of the things the military absolutely depends upon is respect.

 

There is a hugh difference between training and torment. A professional soldier, sailor, marine or airman knows the difference. Though we don't know all of the details surrounding this particular case, it looks pretty clear from what I've read, and the military courts agree.

 

My son is a Marine. He's been to Iraq twice and I can assure you he is smart and as tough as nails. But, he'd have no part of the behavior of the drill sargeant the article describes. It simply wouldn't support his mission.

[Matts_12GS]

I have served and one of the things the military absolutely depends upon is respect.

 

Let me add "trust" to respect. If you don't trust that those in positions of authority are acting in the best interest of the squad, unit, ship, etc. then the fundamental respect for position and authority are in jeopardy furthering the potential for harm to all.

[DavidEBSmith]

I didn't serve (regret), but I have the utmost respect for those that did, or currently do.

 

I would never be so presumptuous to second guess any of them.

 

Well, I wasn't in the military, but I reject the assumption that civilians don't have the right to comment on military matters. Someone who has served can have a butt-headed and uninformed opinion, and the fact that someone hasn't served doesn't make their opinion automatically wrong.

 

That being said, I agree with Greg and Steve.

 

I would have to believe that the Corps has established what it believes to be an efficient and appropriate regimen of training its recruits to maximize their efficiency as a fighting force. I would also have to believe that the Corps has made an informed conclusion that training methods employed in the past are less effective than those currently implemented. I suspect few of us here, those who've served or those who haven't, are in a position to make an objective judgment as to whether the Corps is right or wrong about its current training policy, but we all hope that they're right.

[Firefight911]

 

Well, I wasn't in the military, but I reject the assumption that civilians don't have the right to comment on military matters. Someone who has served can have a butt-headed and uninformed opinion, and the fact that someone hasn't served doesn't make their opinion automatically wrong.

 

And making assumptions does really only one thing!

 

No where in my post did I ever make any statement toward the fact that someone who chose to go a different path did not have a right to comment or otherwise.

 

I agree whole-heartedly that there are many buttheads and uniformed people. The military is an excellent place to find many of them, just as with any enterprise, corporation, law firm, motorcycle shop, internet forum, or otherwise.

 

Bottom line here is that, regardless of the circumstance or situation, a person has the right to be treated fairly, lawfully, and with dignity, and respect. If someone violated these then there should be some consequence. The courts have ruled and we can only have faith that the court ruled as they deemed just, based on the charges and testimony; and that the witnesses, both for and against, stuck to facts and didn't let vendettas fuel their testimony.

 

The military is an entity that has a mission. It also is being and has been used as a pawn of political gain. Many times, these two things collide in bad ways.

 

Wrong is wrong and if this DI is wrong then he is deserving of the punishment. However, as I and many others can attest to first hand, there are MANY recruits that arrive at boot camp and suddenly realize that mommy and daddy and the keys to the family cabana and car are no longer there. Many can't handle it and instead of stepping up to the plate of personal responsibility and sucking it up they would rather point the finger anywhere else but at themselves.

 

Again, wrong is wrong and if the DI is wrong he deserves the punishment. I still am in the firm belief that there is a softening of the overall military to the expense of our nation ultimately and those who have served, IMO, understand what this means. Again, this is not a justification of this, or any others actions.

[MikeB60]

I believe that the American public has every right to second-guess and question actions taken by the military. They foot the bill and provide the military with their sons and daughters with the expectation that those in charge will treat them with dignity and respect. We, and I say we because I served 26 years in the US Army Infantry, owe that to the American People that we took and oath to support and defend. Forcing Marines to drink water until they vomit and then forcing them to lie in that vomit is not in keeping with good order and discipline nor is it treating those Marines with dignity and respect. If someone did that to my son or daughter, I would be mad as hell.

 

My last assignment before I retired in 2004 was as a First Sergeant of an Infantry Basic Training company. Basic training is a tough job for the Cadre and it’s easy for the Drill Sergeants to get stressed and very frustrated at times. That is why it is important for those leaders in the unit to watch what is going on and take action before things get out of hand. Across Fort Benning it is common practice for leaders to tell Drill Sergeants “you have a phone call” as a subtle way of telling them to take a step back without undermining their authority. Those Marine DI’s needed a phone call before they found themselves in a court martial.

 

I’m not sure that there is an overall softening of the Military. Are things different? For sure. I can tell you that post Vietnam thing were a mess. The Army in 1977 was no comparison to the Army that I retired from in 2004. In 1977, drugs were rampant, race wars common and if you had duty it was with a loaded .45 because of the potential for violence in the barracks. Its not like that now! Yes you have issues with some of the new recruits, most of them never ran a mile before they enlisted and its pathetic that a 19 kid can’t do 15 push ups. Nevertheless, the military still transforms these kids into Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, and Marines that would be proud to serve with again. Read about their actions in Afghanistan and Iraq and you will quickly realize they are of the same stock that has defended our way of life over the past 228 years.

[skyking]

The Marine Corps is unlike any other organization in the world. Marines are asked to do things most people would consider incomprehensible, if not impossible. How do you prepare men for these tasks? With EXTREME training.

 

My drill instructors were far tougher on our platoon than what recruits face today. The softening of basic training is a diservice to the recruits about to face combat. The punishing of men charged with turning boys into Marines in twelve short weeks is disgraceful.

 

I have the utmost respect for all of the branches of the military, but the Marine Corps has a unique mission that requires unique training.

 

As someone else said, these are volunteer recruits. They joined the Marines, the Marines didn't join them. Play by the Corps' rules, or go home. I know the former Marines on this board understand this. If you weren't a Marine, you never truly will comprehend the bond we share with each other or why we take our training so much to heart.

 

Semper Fi,

Rick

[DavidEBSmith]

My drill instructors were far tougher on our platoon than what recruits face today. The softening of basic training is a diservice to the recruits about to face combat. The punishing of men charged with turning boys into Marines in twelve short weeks is disgraceful.

 

200 years ago the British Navy believed in flogging to enforce discipline. When they stopped that, I'm sure there were people who said the same things you're saying.

 

I think it does a disservice to the Marine Corps to assume that they're softening the training regimen out of weakness, and to not assume that they might just have some clue about implementing a modern training method that works for today's recruits. And everything I've read coming from the Middle East says that the boots on the ground are doing a damn fine job under incredibly difficult circumstances. So whatever you may think of what the Corps is doing as far as training, it seems to be turning out damn good Marines.

[skyking]

My statements are not based on assumptions. I saw the changes happening first hand. They are not softening the training regimen out of the weakness of recruits, but because of social pressure that has no place in matters of war, that is, unless those exerting that pressure are willing to pick up a rifle and join those brave young men on the front lines.

 

I'm sure you are very well versed in your field of endeavor, and I would not presume to argue points of your profession. You may not agree with my point of view, but since you've never been a Marine, what qualifies you to criticize it?

 

Rick

[Twisties]

My statements are not based on assumptions. I saw the changes happening first hand. They are not softening the training regimen out of the weakness of recruits, but because of because of social pressure that has no place in matters of war, that is, unless those exerting that pressure are willing to pick up a rifle and join those brave young men on the front lines.

 

I'm sure you are very well versed in your field of endeavor, and I would not presume to argue points of your profession. You may not agree with my point of view, but since you've never been a Marine, what qualifies you to criticize it?

 

Rick

 

It's called being a citizen, and the day you try to say I don't have that right and responsibility, you are the enemy.

[Dances_With_Wiener_Dogs]

Yes there is more than breaking a razor... They also said Glass and another drill instructor forced them after meals to down liters of water in a ritual known as "waterbowling," an act banned by the Marine Corps' standard operations procedure manual.

 

Here's an interesting discussion on this topic: Linky

Especially interesting on page 58. It seems that one of the other men convicted was the one who initially blew the whistle on Glass. There is suggestion that none of the recruits actually came forward to report the actions of the DI.

[ghaverkamp]

I'm sure you are very well versed in your field of endeavor, and I would not presume to argue points of your profession. You may not agree with my point of view, but since you've never been a Marine, what qualifies you to criticize it?

 

I'm trying to find where the training regimen of the Marines has been criticized.

 

As someone else said, these are volunteer recruits. They joined the Marines, the Marines didn't join them. Play by the Corps' rules, or go home. I know the former Marines on this board understand this. If you weren't a Marine, you never truly will comprehend the bond we share with each other or why we take our training so much to heart.

 

It sounds to me like you haven't read any of the material linked in this thread. Instead, you seem to be jumping on the ill-informed bandwagon that somehow Marine training is being questioned. If you had read the supporting material, you would know that a court-martial already found the DI guilty of not playing by the Corps' rules. By your very standard, he should go home.

 

Regardless, your argument that no one who isn't a Marine may criticize the Marines demonstrates a frightening disregard of the Constitution that Marines are sworn to defend. The Marines report to and are a part of our civilian government. The people have the right to tell their representatives the form they feel their government agencies must take. If that trickles down to Marine training, so be it. The top of the chain of command isn't the Commandant.

[TyTass]

Came in late but this today’s military is soft direction in this thread has sucked me in.

 

I don't tend to agree often with EB but he hit what I think is a very important truth. It is in sync with my interest in military history as well as personal experience. <I expect to catch flak from old timers like me for expressing this view.> Historically speaking there is indeed a VERY strong trend for the "Old Guard" (from whatever era) to proclaim the "old way was better," adding they/we "had it tougher" ... whether implying "we were better" or not.

 

I initially joined the USN in 1978 and over the 25+ I was in the USN/USNR I saw numerous changes. Some I thought were good; but the longer I stayed in the more I thought the changes were for the worse. At some point near my last tour I realized it was good for me to leave and do something else. I realized the changes weren't wrong, it just wasn't "My Navy" any more ... time to let the men and women I trained take charge and tackle the next set of changes.

 

Because of this I agree with MikeB60 (and others) that despite what may seem to some of us old timers as negative changes, today's <insert service of choice> out there right in the sh_t are in numerous ways better than their predecessors - especially for dealing with today's set of military issues. And aside from successfully fighting (though some would argue) in a very a complicated counter-insurgent conflict, they have to deal with being ambassadors for this nation to a level we old timers cannot fathom.

 

I can agree with some that say that John Q Public may not fully comprehend severity of the job, the missions, tactics, or intelligence methodologies. But clearly John Q can understand the requirement that military training produce the kind of soldiers/sailors/marines it needs. The fact is there is not only one method for teaching physical and mental toughness but I see there are too many military-experienced people who don't bother to grasp the need for change in training methodologies.

 

While some here want to imply that this article is about political correctness in the military, it would only then be fair to discuss how the abuses of the previous generations (including mine) caused the current set of rules and policies – which we sardonically label “political correctness”. We would then need to discuss careless/needless training deaths, ridiculous hazing rituals, crimes against civilians in host nations, as well as Command-level tolerance for many other types of despicable behavior.

 

And yes, there are abuses on the politically correct side of the equation, too. And in Dave McReynolds terms, the equilibrium not yet achieved and is in flux. But if some here are thinking that Glass is a likely candidate for the poster child for Political Correctness Run Amok, read the articles and think again!

 

While there may always exist a time to exercise your own judgment and “make a command decision” to go outside SOP, policies, or regulations, it seems quite clear from those articles (if they present a thorough report) that Glass did far more than make such a decision. And in that case, he seems to have simply chosen not to obey his orders to the point that very few of Glass' fellow Marines question what he did was wrong.

 

Sorry for the length ...

 

<end rant>

 

<edit>Good point above, Greg!

 

[KMG_365]

I just want to applaud the participants in this thread, and as one who has rolled on his share of DEAD Navy SEALS due to some of those . . . extreme training practices, I understand that we need trained and dedicated folks who will effectively watch our collective butts as we sleep blissfully ignorant of the deeds they are asked to do on our behalf, but despite the fact that there are variables in what the human body can withstand (and it might not always line up with what the individual human psyche thinks it can withstand) there is a general agreement of what is out of bounds or over the line. I don't think it will necessarily "ruin" an entire generation of our soldiers by not routinely and recklessly striding over that line without consequences. In the end it is the people who must rule in this democracy and the chain of command is the key to our success in that.

[motorman587]

Maybe I miss it, but why did these recruits have to do, drink water, get their razor broken etc........... I sure they did not follow the rules and the drill instructors had to act. If you can not follow simple rules, how are you going to protect my back in combat???

[Twisties]

Maybe I miss it, but why did these recruits have to do, drink water, get their razor broken etc........... I sure they did not follow the rules and the drill instructors had to act. If you can not follow simple rules, how are you going to protect my back in combat???

 

Comment Withdrawn

[Dave McReynolds]

Maybe I miss it, but why did these recruits have to do, drink water, get their razor broken etc........... I sure they did not follow the rules and the drill instructors had to act. If you can not follow simple rules, how are you going to protect my back in combat???

 

Yes, they probably broke some rule. I'm making an assumption here, based on the severity of the punishment, that the DI was reacting in a sadistic way here rather than a motivational way. What I would like to see a DI to do if some boot wasn't getting with the program is to kick some a$$ in a positive way such that the recruit was motivated to get with the program, and work even harder than he had previously been doing before, and over the course of bootcamp to become proud that he was learning to be a Marine. Like I can remember us being in my earlier tale when we were doing situps on the washracks at the rifle range and the DI was beating on our stomachs with a club or something. We were yelling at him that he was a pussy because he wasn't beating on our stomachs hard enough. I guess it's hard to understand if you weren't there.

 

I would assume that what the DI was doing in the case in point was for his own deviant gratification and was probably very demoralizing. I can't imagine being motivated by drinking water until I puked or having my razor stomped on.

 

I would guess that there are any number of DI's who get out of line, like the first two we had, that are just reassigned to other duties. Obviously something more than that was going on here.

[motorman587]

When I went through boot camp, I was never pick on. If I did it was cause "I" @uck uped. The once that got picked on and it seemed ever day where the same guys. They could not follow easy commands, like shine your boots. Do not read with your flash light in bed at night. And these guys you want to share a fox hole with????

[MikeB60]

When I went through boot camp, I was never pick on. If I did it was cause "I" @uck uped. The once that got picked on and it seemed ever day where the same guys. They could not follow easy commands, like shine your boots. Do not read with your flash light in bed at night. And these guys you want to share a fox hole with????

 

John

Sound like you were one of the recruits that the Drill Sergeant never spoke with, and that normally is a good thing. Soldiers that start out disciplined are a Drill Sergeants dream. When I was in that environment, I would have had a problem with any of my Drill Sergeants had they condoned any of the behavior that you mentioned. Let me be clear, Infantry training is tough and instilling discipline is the center piece. I don’t think that recruits should be coddled. Even small infractions such as you mentioned should bring severe consequences at least in the minds of the other recruits. And guys like you will suffer for the acts of others in the Military; recruits need to understand there actions can cost someone else their life. In my unit these consequences centered on some kind of physical training or loss of privileges not some silly little game like make Joe drink water until he pukes. Even if this practice wasn’t potentially dangerous I don’t see how you get very much out of it. 15 minutes of grass drills does the same thing with the added benefit building their physical stamina.

 

Believe me, I understand and I also think that most civilians understand that the military is centered on discipline. Like GEN Patton said “If you can't get them to salute when they should salute and wear the clothes you tell them to wear, how are you going to get them to die for their country? But there is a right and wrong way to achieve this goal especially in initial entry training. As TyTass stated today’s military is not the same military most of us on this board remember but that doesn’t mean that it’s worse.

 

Two months ago I ran into SFC Chatman who was a Bradley Gunner in my rifle company several years ago. He was on casualty assistance detail and was wearing his Class A uniform. As we chatted, I noticed as Silver Star and asked him about it. He said “First Sergeant, that just part of it and pulled his pants leg up to reveal his prosthetic leg”. Then he told me about the night in Iraq when this happened. Still makes the hair stand up on the back of my neck. A product of the modern Army that I am proud of and I don’t think anyone ever forced him to drink water until he puked!

Mike