New bulletin out (Spark Knock)

[dslbrnr]

Just had my bike down to the dealer today for the spark knock problem(5000 RPM up)under hard excelleration. The Service manager said there is a new download which is supposed to stop the problem in some bikes. The CD should be at the dealer towards the end of the week to download into my bike. I think the remap is supposed to alter the advance curve on the timing.

 

I'll keep you posted!

[panman]

what are the symptoms of spark knock?

[Ken H.]

A knocking noise.

[SANTA]

Oh this is gonna be fun... i thought the whole concept of the IC engine is to get a spark an then the engines goes knock or bang????!!!

 

usually when i hear knocking noises inside the engine thats not so good....

 

or maybe those there fangdangelled knock sensors in your engines ar just going " yup i got a spark, and oooh theres a knock"

[steveknapp]

Somewhat disturbing that an engine with knock sensors is still having issues with spark knock... I'd hope the new cal does more to deal with how the knock detection reacts than just changing the base timing.

[Albert]

I'm guessing this is just a computer mapping issue since I'm not aware of any 05/06 models with the problem (I think mine pinged once when I hit it hard on a hill, 2 up, in the wrong gear). I don't think there's been any fundamental changes to the hex head for 07/08 so it's likely software glitch with a quick fix.

[black99S]

Somewhat disturbing that an engine with knock sensors is still having issues with spark knock... I'd hope the new cal does more to deal with how the knock detection reacts than just changing the base timing.

Last Baja trip (San Diego to San Jose del Cabo and back) I had two experiences. One day 220Kph clean running, some throttle left but road and wind conditions not good enough to hang there for long. Two days later 220Kph max, throttle to the stop for near a minute, engine sounding like a bag of hammers loose inside. Put it down to variables in gas quality (always bought premium) but was never convined it was the gas. I await more details.

[lopaca]

Sure explains what I just started to hear a couple of weeks ago. The odd thing is that I did not notice it this past ride. Do you know if it is chronic or intermittent?

 

I will definitely call my dealer to schedule an update.

[JonM]

My 07 RT knocks or pings (not sure which) under heavy (key word) acceleration starting around 4500-5000 RPM. It does it almost every time, but there are occasions when it is smooth. I keep hoping it is a break-in thing or a valve adjust thing, but it hasn't seemed to have made any difference. Gas brand and grade does not matter. My 07 R12S is smooth all the time with no ping or knock or funny sounds.

 

I guess this is worth a call to the dealer. Thanks for the info.

[RFW]

There is no such thing as spark knock.

 

There is detonation or preignition, but neither of these have anything much directly to do with "spark" (other than in some cases the ignition being too far advanced).

[Limecreek]

You are referring to release 11.0. This release fixes several issues, among them is the pinging under acceleration. The pinging issue is not present in all R bikes.

 

-Improves the sensitivity of knock control

-Rectifies the "acceleration pinging"

[steveknapp]

There is no such thing as spark knock.

 

There is detonation or preignition, but neither of these have anything much directly to do with "spark" (other than in some cases the ignition being too far advanced).

 

I've been around engine management system development and I've not heard the systems used to detect abnormal combustion referred to as anything BUT "knock".

 

More so, if the detection strategy is good, you should be well past the threshold of detection if you can audibly hear it.

 

Sounds like they are resolving this correctly, updating the knock detection strategy.

[smiller]

Sounds like they are resolving this correctly, updating the knock detection strategy.

If that's what they're doing. They could also be simply retarding the timing.

[steveknapp]

"-Improves the sensitivity of knock control"?

[dslbrnr]

My bike pings all the time from about 5000 RPM and up under hard exceleration. I tried all different brands of 91 octane with the same result. I thought it was the anti knock sensors, but the dealer said only some RT's are have the problem and the remap should fix it.

I hope I don't lose any performance!

[smiller]

"-Improves the sensitivity of knock control"?

Oh, missed that.

 

Now all we have to do is decide whether to believe them...

[JonM]

My bike pings all the time from about 5000 RPM and up under hard exceleration. I tried all different brands of 91 octane with the same result. I thought it was the anti knock sensors, but the dealer said only some RT's are have the problem and the remap should fix it.

I hope I don't lose any performance!

 

 

I have the exact same symptoms. And I have the same color as you. Maybe Biarritz is the problem.

[ESokoloff]

Seeing that this thread has neared it's natural life & successfully served its purpose.....

Where is Wyn with his pearls of wisdom when you need him

[Albert]

Seeing that this thread has neared it's natural life & successfully served its purpose.....

Where is Wyn with his pearls of wisdom when you need him

 

OUCH!

[steveknapp]

Now all we have to do is decide whether to believe them...

 

LOL. Why start now?

[dpontow]

Called my San Diego dealer yesterday (Thursday) and they had just gotten the CD in the mail that morning. He asked how I knew about this and told him I saw it on the forum. That kind of blew him away. Have my appointment scheduled for Monday.

[Bill767]

Called my San Diego dealer yesterday (Thursday) and they had just gotten the CD in the mail that morning. He asked how I knew about this and told him I saw it on the forum. That kind of blew him away. Have my appointment scheduled for Monday.

Interesting, I just called my dealer and they said they had nothing pertaining to any "R" bikes. Anybody have specific info on this bulletin or update?

[dpontow]

Picked my R1200RT up from the dealer last night after having the 11.0 software update performed. Didn't have a chance to test it out (all city side streets to go home) other than a quick blip up to about 7K on the tach but I didn't hear any of the pinging. The dealer also said that this software update is supposed to address "some of the accuracy issues of the fuel level indicator". Time will tell.

[Semper_Fi]

Interesting comment DoubleDeez - I have fuel level indicator issues - fill up - never indicates more than 3/4's.

 

how can one confirm the SW version installed - or do you need specific diagnostic (dealer equipment)?

[dpontow]

I have no idea how to check the currently installed software version. Maybe one of the other folks on this forum might have that answer.

[IanW]

Called my San Diego dealer yesterday (Thursday) and they had just gotten the CD in the mail that morning. He asked how I knew about this and told him I saw it on the forum. That kind of blew him away. Have my appointment scheduled for Monday.

Interesting, I just called my dealer and they said they had nothing pertaining to any "R" bikes. Anybody have specific info on this bulletin or update?

 

Bill

Info on this site: http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33242

Ian

[Bill767]

Called my San Diego dealer yesterday (Thursday) and they had just gotten the CD in the mail that morning. He asked how I knew about this and told him I saw it on the forum. That kind of blew him away. Have my appointment scheduled for Monday.

Interesting, I just called my dealer and they said they had nothing pertaining to any "R" bikes. Anybody have specific info on this bulletin or update?

 

Info on this site: http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33242

Ian

Thanks very much, just what I need.

Bill

[Semper_Fi]

Called my San Diego dealer yesterday (Thursday) and they had just gotten the CD in the mail that morning. He asked how I knew about this and told him I saw it on the forum. That kind of blew him away. Have my appointment scheduled for Monday.

Interesting, I just called my dealer and they said they had nothing pertaining to any "R" bikes. Anybody have specific info on this bulletin or update?

 

Info on this site: http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33242

Ian

Thanks very much, just what I need.

Bill

 

Thank you very much - will be bringing this in with me for my 600.

[R4ND0M_AX3]

Info on this site: http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33242

Ian

Wow. some of the K bikes and the R12S can have the HP2 Sport instrument cluster retrofitted now.

[TotallyOpposed]

I dont know if this helps, but, I had a Moto Guzzi V-11 Le Mans and it used to knock pretty bad (California 91 oct) and I put some AC Delco Rapid Fire plugs in the bike and it was a dramatic improvement in the knocking problem, along with noticeably better performance.

Anyone running different plugs notice a difference?

[dpontow]

Got my bike back last Tuesday from the 11.0 software upgrade and finally had a chance to test it out this weekend.

 

The pinging during hard acceleration seems to be a thing of the past!!! Previously, I would have the pinging in the 4K to redline zone but all now seems fine. And in regards to performance, I could not detect any decline at all performance wise. In fact, it might feel a little stronger now.

 

The upgrade was also supposed to address fuel gage inaccuracies. Previously, my gage would register full at a fill up but would stay on full well past where I knew it should be down to 3/4 or even 1/2. It seems to be much more accurate now. Dead on? Not quite, but much more realistic.

[lopaca]

I got mine back on Saturday. Pinging/knocking is gone. Did not notice any difference in performance.

 

However, the gas gauge is more accurate.

 

I am going to do Glendora Ridge Road up to Baldy on Wednesday (I hope - wind/road conditions/weather?) and will have a better idea of the effectiveness of the update.

[DMilan]

Hello All,

 

Just had my '07 RT demo out for the first time since I purchased her a month ago.

 

Like it pretty good so far.

Just for kicks, on the freeway, as I approached an exit ramp, downshifted to 5th and goosed 'er.

Knocked like a pig. Just like my 1150RT did.

Will this software thingy fix it.

Don't really care a lot, I don't much ride like that.

I'm just say'n.

 

DMilan

[flyingreg]

what are the symptoms of spark knock?

 

 

A knocking noise.

[flyingreg]

There is no such thing as spark knock.

<snip>

From: About.com

 

SPARK KNOCK

"Definition: This is the pinging or rattling noise sometimes heard during acceleration that indicates detonation is occurring inside the engine (See Detonation). Spark knock can be caused by a variety of things including using low octane fuel, over-advanced ignition timing, too much compression (often due to a buildup of carbon in the combustion chamber), by an inoperative EGR valve, and/or by too much heat. If switching to a higher octane fuel doesn't cure the problem, the cause should be investigated because prolonged or heavy knocking can damage the engine."

 

In other words, same as detonation.

 

FWIW, I have not experienced pinging with my '07 R12GSA under any riding conditions.

[DMilan]

FWIW, I have not experienced pinging with my '07 R12GSA under any riding conditions.

 

Greg,

 

That's interesting to here.

Thinking back, I owned an '05 R1200GS (non-adv / same engine however) and it never knocked under any riding conditions either. As I stated 2 or 3 posts back, my '07 RT sounded like it was going to grenade the first time I downshifted to 5th and whapped the throttle open.

 

As I recall the 05-'07 GS and GSA have a detuned version

of the 1200 as opposed to the RT. 10hp or so as I recall.

Different cams, compression ratio, or computer, not sure. Maybe one or a combo of those items.

 

Anyone out there with a GS12 Series with this issue?

Or just RTs.

 

DMilan

[motoguy128]

I think the lower compression ration on the GS has the largest impact. From my test ride of the GS, I noticed it ran cleanly without knocking under even 2000RPM, while the RT is OK at 2500 with very small throttle inputs, but prefers to always be over 3000RPM.

 

My dealer was supposed to have updated firmware. They are still have the bike right now to replace the fuel strip sicne they were unable to recalibrate.

 

I let everyone know if the pinging goes away. I should have it back to ride this weekend.

[RedMac]

So I'm curious.. is this upgrade worth taking my bike into the dealer and complaining about "Spark Knock" to have the upgrade done? Anyone have an opinion on this?

[dpontow]

My bike (07 RT) was still under warranty. I had to state to the dealer "Yes, I have a ping / knock under hard acceleration" or I had to state "Yes, I have a gas guage accuracy problem" and then they could validate the warranty work. I had the upgrade done and now the ping / knock is gone and the gas guage is "better".

 

If your bike isn't under warranty, then it's a "cost versus result" kind of personal choice. If I were in your shoes (assuming that your bike is out of warranty), I wouldn't worry about the gas guage but if your bike is one that experiences the hard acceleration ping / knock then I would choose to pay the money to have the software upgrade done. That condition is very hard on an engine and I think worth the money to fix it.

[RedMac]

Thanks for the reply. I can't say I've ever noticed the spark knock, but I wear ear plugs. I'll pay attention to it when I start riding in the next month (still winter here.. ugh). My bike is currently under warranty for about another year.

 

Sounds like it is something I should have done then....

[lopaca]

So I'm curious.. is this upgrade worth taking my bike into the dealer and complaining about "Spark Knock" to have the upgrade done? Anyone have an opinion on this?

 

Evidently it addresses other issues as well. For instance, I noticed immediately that my gas guage was much more accurate, but that could have just been something unique with my RT, who knows. I don't see how it could hurt.

[cwillson]

While I was reading this, my office phone rang and it was the service manager at my dealer. Called to tell me of this and told me that it is only needed to be done at my convenience. (no urgency). He was not aware of any issues being addressed other than the pinging issue that some have reported.

 

Craig

[motoguy128]

Done! Spark knock (pinging) is completely gone! I made several WOT runs in 2nd and 3rd on the freeay to find out. I normally ride pretty relaxed since I have a pasenger... I had forgotten how great the motor sound above 6000RPM.

 

Fuel mileage after the 6000 mile service and ECU update seems to be a little better. The fuel level sensor was replaced and now seem fairly accurate. All is well. The engine is slightly smoother than before, but still a boxer for sure. I love it.

[alimar]

I called my local dealer on Friday to discuss a 600 mile service on my 07RT for Tuesday. Asked if I would be waiting for the bike I said yes, then I was told during the call that there would be an extra 15 minutes needed for a download to fix a spark knock problem. No questions asked, no need to say that I had a problem (and considering that during break in you're not supposed to hit the RPM range that the fix fixes). I'm of the opinion that if something is fixed it should be an automatic download. Having been around software for 25+ years, there's always bugs that are getting fixed or minor tweeks to make something better. The wares should be made available to us owners so we could DL them if desired...

 

Just my $.02

[Semper_Fi]

that there would be an extra 15 minutes needed for a download to fix a spark knock problem....

 

Expect to wait more than 15 minutes, I just had mine done over the weekend and all 3 computers need to be updated in the process and it can take a while depending on how things shake out with communications between the computers, mine was a little over half hour or so.

 

Did not have pinging before so I don't see any major difference - still waiting on the accuracy of the gas gauge - maybe something to do for the 6K

 

Cheers

[bogthebasher]

I'll be testing this out with my 2008 RT for it's first service check next week. I have experienced the fuel guage issue so will ask them to perform the work. I have been at the dealer every day for a week with my wife's 2007 RT (different thread) so am quite wary about the outcome.

[alimar]

Had the 600 mile service done yesterday and was told, thankfully that an attempt to load the download on another bike just a business day earlier (read end of last week) wasn't successful. While the owner of that bike was able to ride away, the dash was said to be lit like a christmass tree. I was told that they opened a tech issue with BMW to determine what the problem was and asked if I would mind waiting until resolution of their "download" probelm. Sheesh... tough call... Keep it under 5K-RPM or risk the unknown? THey'll call me when resolved, figured out and reasonably expected to take successfully.

 

Back to the service... It seemed that the bike ran and sounded smoother once done, but I'll leave that to blissful perception. Got to work, then went home. Parked and see rear-drive leaking... oh shit. Oil on the breakes, wheel, tire. Sickened I look but cannot find the source. I wipe everyting down thinking that perhaps, even though unlikely that this could be chalked up to an over fill, etc. Wake up this morning, no new oil anywhere... So I take off, 1/2 way to work (only a few miles) I notice zip for rear breaks, pull over and yep! Driping !!!

 

Gingerly bring it back to the dealer. They put it right on the lift and an hour later show me this little O-Ring that's got a pinch, this little stinking pinch.

 

Apparently, and being new with BMW's, rear drives, etc, the ABS sensor on the rear drive is removed for a rear drive oil draining (and after looking at the whole thing this evening I understand). It has an o-ring. The technition said that my sensor also had a "shim" washer, first he's ever seen like that. Apparently it's problematic in some sort of way. Anyone else familiar with that area? Know of others with shims? When I do my own can I discard the shim???

 

By the way, drove it a good 25 miles mixed highway and not, no problem...

[motoguy128]

Yup.. had both of those happen. At my 600 miles service the ABS sensor seal leaked and dumped FD oil all of the wheel and back of the bike.

 

2 weeks ago I have my 6000 miles service down and they lost communication or the firmware in the CANBus controller for the BC... sounds liek the same as yours. The GT-1 requested the original CD with the firmware (sounds like MS Windows?)

 

It took a week to sort out including replacing the fuel strip. The good news is that it's a good tiem of year to be bikeless.

[Swrv]

I just took my 07 R12RT for it's 600 mile service yesterday and was told by the Service Manager that I was in need of the Spark Knock download. I waited for the bike at the dealership and it seemed from my oberservation that the download took at least an hour to oomplete.

[Semper_Fi]

Had the 600 mile service done yesterday and was told, thankfully that an attempt to load the download on another bike just a business day earlier (read end of last week) wasn't successful. While the owner of that bike was able to ride away, the dash was said to be lit like a christmass tree. I was told that they opened a tech issue with BMW to determine what the problem was ...

 

Apparently there is 2 "upgrades" one for the knock and gas guage, the other for the service message that comes on. Apparently the second one (service) is the one that is currently not compatible with the bikes computer for upload. That portion was omitted on my servicing.

 

Also today for grins i checked my range at 1/2 tank and it stated 198. Which if taken as gospel gives me 400 miles per tank - which is great, unfortunately I am avergaing 44-45 mpg. At a full 7.1 gallons that is 319.5.

 

Whatever - when it gets low I will fill it.