Dangers of a meth lab

[Lawman]

Everyone, especially police officers, needs to know these things can be very dangerous. They are numerous in this country and most anyone is subject to stumble upon one at some time in their life..If you should...STAY AWAY!

 

Parents...Tell your kids....

 

http://www.policelink.com/news/articles/10968-pyramid-lake-tribe-mourns-officers-death?referral=lodd

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

Spotted in a Michigan rest area on the way back from Torrey last May:

 

(click on image to open a full-size, readable photo in another window)

[GelStra]

Man, I just watched a show on Nat Geographic last night on meth. (The program was on meth, not me!) What a nightmare drug! The only thing that I question: They say it EXTREMELY addictive. You could be hooked if you try it once. But that was the same thing they said about crack back when it was in the limelight. Scare tactics or reality?

[Lawman]

Man, I just watched a show on Nat Geographic last night on meth. (The program was on meth, not me!) What a nightmare drug! The only thing that I question: They say it EXTREMELY addictive. You could be hooked if you try it once. But that was the same thing they said about crack back when it was in the limelight. Scare tactics or reality?

 

REALITY...ABSOLUTELY!.....Like any other addictive substance only more so...Some people can get away with one or two uses and for others one or two uses and it owns them...Trust me here..

[4wheeldog]

Man, I just watched a show on Nat Geographic last night on meth. (The program was on meth, not me!) What a nightmare drug! The only thing that I question: They say it EXTREMELY addictive. You could be hooked if you try it once. But that was the same thing they said about crack back when it was in the limelight. Scare tactics or reality?

 

What makes you think it was a scare tactic with crack? Horrible drugs that ruin families and communities.

Meth has to be the worst. Nothing is more of a waste of a human life than a tweaker.

[Mike]

They say it EXTREMELY addictive. You could be hooked if you try it once. But that was the same thing they said about crack back when it was in the limelight. Scare tactics or reality?

 

Out of respect for the privacy of the individual involved, I won't identify who this was, but I've got a story about crystal meth:

 

A few years ago a member of my extended family got hooked up with crystal meth. He started missing days from work. Friends called us to report episodes of uncontrollable rage. He disappeared for days at a time, and when he resurfaced he was often largely incoherent and woud not discuss what he'd been up to.

 

It's a universal problem, but crystal meth addition has reached epidemic proportions in some parts of the gay community. In this case the family member, a gay man, was in New York City. I was the member of the family who volunteered to go to NYC and try to intervene in what appeared to be a death spiral. Before doing this, I spent quite a bit of time on the phone with a counselor from The Gay Center, (please, really, spare me the jokes) trying to figure out what I was about to encounter. It was pretty sobering, and I was forewarned by the counselor that the recovery rate from crystal meth addiction is nearly zero.

 

I've been involved in law enforcement for about 30 years, and the depth of the crystal methamphetamine problem boggled my mind. Crystal meth is, in itself, horribly damaging and utterly addicting. But, in addition, in many instances--and this was what I found--it is used in conjunction with LSD, Cocaine, Heroin, GHB, and barbiturates (plus much more) to achieve the a perfect high. The really serious users, which this relative was among, go on days-long benders, taking these drugs nasally, orally, intravenously, and as suppositories. Getting too high? Pop some barbiturates. Want to see colors? A little LSD. And let's not forget to toss a little Viagra into the mix to achieve a stunning erection. You get the idea . . . it's horrifying beyond belief and crystal meth is the drug around which all of it is centered.

 

The person I found in NYC was not the same man he had been even a few months earlier. He had lost 50 or 60 lbs. and, while he could still interact socially, had been reduced from one of the most brilliant people I have known to a dolt who had difficulty maintaining a stream of thought for more than a few seconds. Sentences trailed off. His perception and connection to reality were clearly broken.

 

I extracted my relative from NYC and brought him back to Chicago, where I got him admitted to Chicago Lakeshore Hospital. The last I saw of him before I left the hospital was a scene in which he was being subdued by some of the largest men I have ever seen outside of an NFL stadium. He checked himself out a few days later. I was, in his eyes, his mortal enemy and was totally cut out of his life for nearly a year.

 

Through an incredible confluence of family support, professional counseling and a return to his faith, he overcame all of this, and has been clean for about five years. I fully believe that he would have been dead within days or weeks had we not acted when we did.

 

Crystal meth is horrible stuff. It will totally destroy a user's life. And, ultimately, it will take that life. If you ever learn of someone near to you getting involved in it, you absolutely must act.

[GelStra]

"What makes you think it was a scare tactic with crack?"

 

It just struck me as so coincidental that the same "One hit and you're hooked" line is used on both. I realize how bad they both are and, having two brain cells functioning at the same time, can't even fathom trying either. Just was curious from informed sources the "we're all adults here" truth. It blows my mind to think that it could be that addictive!

 

I mean, we've NEVER used scare tactics in relation to drugs!

 

[Limecreek]

Check out the ingredients---who in their right mind would willingly ingest this stuff?!

 

A nice extra stout or a good porter is a much better alternative.

[GelStra]

Mike, amazing. Utterly amazing.

A very good friend of mine's boyfriend is in the recovery phase after a few years on it. She & I worked together and I heard all the stories. Nat Geo quoted a 92% failure rate among recovering addicts which is right on with what she told me his chances were. He's been clean (if I believe the stories) for almost 2 years. The problem with her is that she turned a blind eye to it, not allowing herself to believe that he was on it. She has set down some pretty heavy rules for him when he wanted back into her life. Hopefully she won't bend.....again.

Hopefully for him, he will never let his guard down.

[Lets_Play_Two]

Man, I just watched a show on Nat Geographic last night on meth. (The program was on meth, not me!) What a nightmare drug! The only thing that I question: They say it EXTREMELY addictive. You could be hooked if you try it once. But that was the same thing they said about crack back when it was in the limelight. Scare tactics or reality?

 

I deal with addicts every day. I am told meth is worse than crack and crack is very,very,very bad. Unfortunate as it seems, I have very little hope for the meth addicts I see. In addition to the addiction it destroys your brain---makes big holes in it!!!

[Lets_Play_Two]

Check out the ingredients---who in their right mind would willingly ingest this stuff?!

 

A nice extra stout or a good porter is a much better alternative.

 

Not if you need it to start your day!!

[Firefight911]

 

'nuf said.

[Lawman]

For those who are only scanning these pictures you should know that each time period is a before and after shot of each user...

[GelStra]

Phil, they showed a lot of those same shots. Simply amazing the physical change it causes.

 

On another DB, Amy Winehouse got brought up.

 

 

Problem is that she's making the record companies jillions so she gets glorified.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

The only thing that I question: They say it EXTREMELY addictive. You could be hooked if you try it once. But that was the same thing they said about crack back when it was in the limelight. Scare tactics or reality?

 

Everyone is different, I guess. I've partaken of a number of things that people routinely become addicted to - alcohol, cigarettes, gambling - and never understood how someone could become so fixated on them that they would ruin lives (their own and others) to get more. And yet, people do.

 

I had a friend who was into heroin a long time ago, and felt he had an easier time quitting that than cigarettes. This, despite the fact that heroin is also said to be extremely addictive. (or, I dunno, maybe this says more about tobacco than heroin...)

 

So while I don't grok addiction, I do accept that it exists, and in the case of meth, all indications are that it does indeed seem to be extremely addictive for the vast majority of users. Teeth falling out? Doesn't matter, get more meth. Out of money? Steal, kill whore yourself out, do what you have to: get more meth.

[GelStra]

Interesting that you bring that up. I've always heard about addictive personalities. Some are, some aren't as succeptible. I've always viewed myself as not. I've done quite a few things through my years and never had much of a problem giving them up (except this board! Even with a few "interventions" )

I wonder if meth throws that logic out the window. Type A, type B, no matter. You're coming with me. It seems so........over-powering.

[exwingnut]

I wonder if meth throws that logic out the window. Type A, type B, no matter. You're coming with me. It seems so........over-powering.

 

It is an overpowering urge, a feeling that you cannot deny, a call to your innermost psyche, a compulsion that will not be denied.

 

Self medication (that is how this all starts out, with the need to deal with real or percieved needs to feel different, to be happier, or to escape feeling somehow incomplete) is integral to human history and will be with us as long as we survive a a species. Oddly enough, two of the most addictive substances know to man are legal and have become part of our culture. Tobacco and alcohol cause more suffering and damage than all the other abused substances combined.

 

I left meth behind me, it was not as hard as quitting smoking (an urge that I carry with me today, 30 years after I stopped smoking). I watched the HBO special on Meth with tears in my eyes, knowing that I had lost friends and family members to this poison. I watched a young mother and father spend the rent money on a drug they had sworn to each other they would never do again, and then shoot each other up while they both cried their eyes out from shame and rage. They were helpeless to stop.

 

People do get better, but not as often as anyone would like. I know, I've been there. If there is a moment in your life that you can reach out to another human being and try to make a difference by helping them overcome addiction, do it. You will always know that you tried to help someone who really needs your love and kindess.

 

And please, PLEASE always remember the the person who is addicted is not acting the way they would naturally, they are not in most cases really the horrible person that they are percieved to be. They are you, me, your son, your father, your sister, your neighbor. They are not evil they are sick, very sick, and cannot rationally make the decisions needed to get better. They never meant to get to the place where they are now and, most sadly, they do know know how to find their way back to the rest of the human race.

[Lets_Play_Two]

"I had a friend who was into heroin a long time ago, and felt he had an easier time quitting that than cigarettes"

 

Physically, nicotine is more addictive than heroin. But most people don't spend the mortgage money or steal to buy cigarettes. Now you might say that is because cigarettes are legal, but alcohol is legal and people due spend the mortgage money or steal to support an ETOH habit. I believe the difference is in the reason the drug is used in the first place and then finally the need to maintain a certain level of use just to get out of bed and walk outside. Nicotine withdrawal is not nearly as severe (i.e., you will do anything for a fix like lie, cheat and steal)

[casticus]

Amen to that brother, meth is some really, really, really bad stuff. When I was on the SWAT team our predetermined course of action if we encountered a meth lab during a search warrant (unexpectedly) was to get the F out! If we had to execute a search warrant on a meth lab (had to is the operative word) the plan was to go in with SCBA's and nomex head to toe.

 

Couple years ago a couple of MSP troopers got in a pursuit of a vehicle that wrecked and when they approached the vehicle to check on the occupants they suffered chemical burns to their lungs because the vehicle had a mobile operating "lab" in the trunk that had been compromised.

 

Fortunately in our city crack is King and heroin is on the rise...I'll deal with both of those rather than meth.

[Jones]

I recently gave a lecture on methamphetamine use and addiction to our EMS division and the police academy. All things considered, I can not imagine a more devastating drug. There is good reason to be very frightened of every aspect of this drugs' manufacture and abuse.

 

7 years ago, I was blown 35 feet out of a garage that was on fire and had a hidden meth lab in the back. Thank God I was wearing my SCBA. My nozzleman's mask got knocked off and he got 1 breath of the smoke. Off for 3 weeks.

 

This stuff worries me.

[GelStra]

"It is an overpowering urge, a feeling that you cannot deny, a call to your innermost psyche, a compulsion that will not be denied."

 

Steve, incredibly powerful. Thanks for your insight. Best wishes on a lifetime of recovery.

 

To the firsthand info from law & fire personnel, wow. Mind-boggling. Thanks

[exwingnut]

"It is an overpowering urge, a feeling that you cannot deny, a call to your innermost psyche, a compulsion that will not be denied."

 

Steve, incredibly powerful. Thanks for your insight. Best wishes on a lifetime of recovery.

 

To the firsthand info from law & fire personnel, wow. Mind-boggling. Thanks

 

My pleasure, anything I can do to give others a view into the hell addicts really live in makes my recovery even more worthwhile.

 

I too am concerned for the innocents this touches, the poster the Mitch posted is just sad beyond belief. The fact that our LEOs and Firefighters have to deal with the left over poisons makes me sick; doing what you want with your body I just don't have a problem, hurting others who are trying to help is just so wrong.

 

Grant me the serenity to accept that which I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

[Christian_rider]

Meth is taking over here too! I have been surprised recently by sentencing of those found guilty of manufacturing Meth. These people are getting life sentences in several cases. Murders do not often get sentances like this and get out and do it again. I do not dwell on it all to much and just do my part on the street. There is enough to concern myself with there. The labs here are about 50 percent mobile labs. Not a good vehicle to be around. There are many reasons for the lack of community involvement with the problems of meth but awareness needs to be out there for everyones safety. The first responders are around it often but it would shock many if they knew what was in some of these vehicles they share the road with.

[justplainray]

man oh man

just check the items on that list.

i have some if not all of those things in my own garage.

and i bet most everyone else here does too.

[Stir]

An old GF's daughter was hooked. One night, she sat in the bathroom and picked at imaginary pimples on her face. She would then apply makeup, get exasperated, wash off her face and pick at "pimples" again. This went on for hours. Same thing. Disappear for days. Bad things would happen to her. I tell people, do meth if you really really hate yourself.

[velomoto]

Steve, thanks for sharing! Perhaps with more information available we can avoid such mindless catch phrase solutions such as the infamous "Just say no to drugs."

[Twisties]

Just the tip of the iceberg of the damage caused by 30 years of drug war.

[ericfoerster]

Just the tip of the iceberg of the damage caused by 30 years of drug war.

 

There is no drug war. I've been in the business for 17 years now and I've not seen any big push. There is no real drive by any agency to stop the flow of drugs. I've worked with a Narcotics Task Force and our hours were 8-5 mon-fri with specific orders not to run warrants on weekends and holidays. What a joke!

I would guess that drug abuse (including alcohol) drives 60%+ of all crime, maybe higher in some areas.

While I used to think education was the key, I now feel that enforcement is the only way out. I've been involved in the DARE program almost my entire career and have seen it fail in so many ways.

No real good answers on my part, but drugs are a huge problem.

I'm doing my part. I am somewhere north of 5000 arrests in my short career.

[velomoto]

There is no drug war.

Wait, this isn't what the politicians are telling me!

 

... I'm doing my part. I am somewhere north of 5000 arrests in my short career.

Thanks for the service - every bit helps!

[GelStra]

As long as there are people not happy with their world unaltered, there will be mind-altering substances. No politics, no cutesy TV ads, etc. will stop those weak enough to want to feel "different." My God, you can get high off a can of whipped cream!

Hint: Trying to prevent it starts reeeeeeal early...with parenting.

[ericfoerster]

You are so correct. Unfortunately, today’s society is working at such a frantic pace the kids are merely left to raise themselves. Now when the kids go bad it’s the schools fault for not providing the right programs.

I’ve seen a complete change from when I was a kid. Most parents now defend their kids to no end, even when the evidence is overwhelming. The mean old police are just picking on my poor kid who was just trying to have some fun.

Pre-trial diversions are also killing us. Most crimes are left unpunished for the first few "mistakes".

[Lawman]

There is no drug war.

 

Amen...War involves an attempt to eliminate the enemy..America is not at war...The military may be at war..America is at the mall...

[Matts_12GS]

The military may be at war..America is at the mall...

 

Which may be why we're seeing B. Hussain in the election.

[MotorinLA]

They say it is EXTREMELY addictive. You could be hooked if you try it once. But that was the same thing they said about crack back when it was in the limelight. Scare tactics or reality?

 

…..

 

Crystal meth is horrible stuff. It will totally destroy a user's life. And, ultimately, it will take that life. If you ever learn of someone near to you getting involved in it, you absolutely must act.

 

[slight hijack]

 

Mike,

 

It sounds like you did a lot of research prior to your intervention and got your family on-board to help out. Good for you and best wishes to your recovering addict.

 

However, a word of caution to anyone facing a similar situation regarding a friend or family member. Choose your course of action carefully and make sure you’re 100% committed to what you’re doing before you start.

 

Many years back I ran into a high school friend at our 10-year reunion. I came to find out that he worked close to my station and talked about getting together for lunch some time. Some years passed and one day I drove by the business where he worked. I saw another person I also recognized from high school and stopped to chat. I asked him if my high school buddy still worked there and he somberly replied, “He died.” He explained that my buddy had been a long time heroin addict and that some of his friends had attempted an intervention. Apparently the intervention had included telling my buddy’s employer about his problem, which subsequently led to his firing. This in turn led to my buddy going into a tailspin, which ended with his suicide.

 

So, before you attempt an ‘intervention’, know what you’re facing and realize what it will take to actually help the person that is addicted. Contrary to what many seem to think, a large number of addicts don’t want help. Their drug of choice has become the absolute most important thing in their life and they will not let go willingly. As Mike stated, his relative did initially not look kindly upon his ‘help’.

 

With that said, if you do have someone in your family with a drug problem, especially meth, do attempt to help, because the drug will kill them, often sooner than later.

 

[/hijack]

[texasaggie97]

Thanks to you and all the other law enforcement that keep us safe from ourselves. That is the scary part all these drug users were kids with parents jus like us. I know some were abused and others were abandoned but I work at Pepperdine with kids that have money and drugs are here and they are everywhere. It not a poor problem it a people caring for one another problem. I am sad to read all these posts because it people running from life. Life is pretty great here or is it really. Money does not by happiness and I mean all americans are rich if you look at the rest of the world. Sorry for the downer post I just wish we really cared about one another. my ,02 not worth much.

 

Eric I have seen you bust the dope heads and I am grateful for the work you do and that goes for all the leo on this website.

[EffBee]

I also have to take the "addictive personality" on faith. I understand about addictive substances. I smoked cigarettes for 10 years. Stopped for 20 years. Then decided I wanted to do it again for just a year and quit to the day. It wasn't difficult. I've been drunk twice in my life, both times about 30 years ago. I enjoy a drink now and then, but "Alcohol" as a substance, as well as its effect, just have no appeal to me.

 

However, and unless I count food as an addictive substance, I've been able to walk away from anything I've sampled. I have absolutely no interest in any of it. Yet I know that for some people, just one time and it's an instant addiction. My mind boggles at how that can happen. But I believe the experts, and the users, who say that it often works that way.

[Twisties]

Hi EffBee,

 

The facts would seem to suggest that you are right. At least according to the government stats I found, something like 1 in 20 of us has tried meth illegally, and only something like 1 in 500 use it within a given month. This strongly suggests that the vast majority of people that try it do not end up addicts.

 

It should also be noted that meth is still prescribed, and millions have used it legally without problem, and found it quite helpful. It has been widely used in the military too.

 

I don't mean to trivialize the dangers of the acute phase of addiction. They are quite real, and meth labs suck. Don't get me wrong. Never the less, I can only view most of what has been said in this thread as hysteria fueled by the propaganda machine that is one arm of the very well funded intensive war on drugs.

 

Part of the problem is that our drug experience here in the U.S. occurs in a culture of intolerance in which drug users are marginalized and can't get help (at least not without suffering greatly for it). As I understand it, some countries try to support the user and keep him healthy through the acute phase of addiction. They then find that within a year or two these people are able to resume a productive life, while in a maintenance phase of addiction. Eventually, in about ten years, they will quit of their own accord.

 

So when we see pictures like what Phil posted, we need to recognize that at least in part, these are the result of a culture of intolerance. When we encounter a clandestine drug lab, we should be asking ourselves if the nanny state is such a good thing, for it has created these labs, and all their attendant problems.

 

<edit> Let me add two things: First, given our current state of law, drugs are associated with very serious crime, and I respect LE's efforts to reduce that crime. Second, You have to work with what you've got. You can't change human nature. Psychoactive drugs have been in use throughout all of known human history, and they aren't going away. We control the environment in which they used.</edit>

 

 

 

Jan

[ericfoerster]

I can only view most of what has been said in this thread as hysteria fueled by the propaganda machine that is one arm of the very well funded intensive war on drugs.

 

Well, that is one point of view. If you read my post above you can see an insider’s point of view on the war on drugs. My guess is that you are a recreational user now, or have been in the past. Still clinging to the idea that big brother is out to get the man.

 

I can assure that the hysteria is real when you work the street on daily basis. I’ve seen things that haunt me to this day. The death and destruction is not hysteria, it is tangible and it is real.

 

When we encounter a clandestine drug lab, we should be asking ourselves if the nanny state is such a good thing, for it has created these labs, and all their attendant problems.

 

That is another point of view. My side wonders who in the hell is going to be hurt by the carcinogenic chemicals contained in the lab. How many more officers are going to be harmed by the caustic fumes that they accidentally inhaled on the way in the door? Who is going to pay for the clean up for these labs?

 

Trust me; the nanny state is all that separates you between a normal life and total anarchy.

 

Bob, Janis, and Jim all made great music. I really don't want to live in their world, and I don't want my kids to either.

[Lawman]

 

I worked and typed and retyped and started over and over and over until I finally decided I should probably just (as Russell might say) STFU...

[Twisties]

I worked and typed and retyped and started over and over and over until I finally decided I should probably just (as Russell might say) STFU...

 

I do that a lot too. In this case, after at least five erases, and holding my tongue several days, I finally decided that the thread needed some balance.

 

I'm not surprised to to find my views are controversial, or difficult to understand, but I think I've managed to state them mildly, respectfully, without rancor or personal attack.

 

I find that sometimes sitting on my thoughts for a day or so helps. Hope to hear from you tomorrow, so long as you can respond without resorting to calling me a criminal, like your brethren did.

 

Jan

[ericfoerster]

Sorry Jan if you think I called you a criminal. No personal harm intended.

 

Speaking of the propaganda machine and the nanny state just reminds me of the rhetoric I hear every day. Just like you, I call it like I see it. To me you are attacking the very system I work for with malicious vigor.

 

Again, no personal attack implied here.

[Twisties]

Eric,

 

Sorry if I came across malicious. That is not my intent.

 

Jan

[Twisties]

William F. Buckley died today. It was from him that I first heard serious opposition to the war on the drugs. This Article, from 1996, lays out his central arguments. I believe the numbers today are supposed to be more like 200 billion dollars, maybe more.

 

Although my point-of-view is not generally consistent with Mr. Buckley's, I found his arguments compelling. Mr. Buckley harkened back to a day when intellectuals of all stripes treated each other with civility. His televised talk show was a regular feature in our house throughout the late 80's and into the 90's because he explored interesting ideas, ensured that all sides were fairly represented, ensured that everyone got to speak their piece, and asked incisive, but fair, questions.

 

In my earlier comments I was trying to be circumspect and understated, and it backfired. I want to assure the LEOs on this thread that I meant no disrespect to the fallen officer, and my only concern was that her life had been wasted needlessly, and that your's may one day follow. That is the tragedy of the event from my point-of-view.

 

You may not agree with me, or Mr. Buckley, but on this day of his death please do him the honor of giving his thoughtful monograph a look over that you may understand where this point of view comes from.

 

Sincerely,

 

Jan

[ericfoerster]

and my only concern was that her life had been wasted needlessly, and that your's may one day follow

 

What about the millions who are using right now. They are stealing money from their spouses, infecting their loved ones with HIV because they are junkies, getting pimped out to make a fast buck to use again. They are trashing entire neighborhoods and making our streets unsafe. The victims of these people will not agree with you.

 

If I gave my life tomorrow in the line of duty I'd think all of my work was worth it. The moral issue is not mine to decide. I do know that many of the folks I've jailed are better off now. The mothers and fathers of the kids I brought home from the drug houses might agree with me too.

 

No matter what Buckley said, I am still not going to the be the first one on my block with a "LEGALIZE METH" bumper sticker

 

As a note, I really did enjoy Buckley and I used to watch him often. I guess I am really not that narrow-minded

I too think he was a fairly decent man with an intellect that was well above most he spoke to.

[Twisties]

Hi Eric,

 

Buckley's point was not moral, but practical: That all of the crime you mention, and which I too acknowledge, is a product of the war on drugs, rather than a product of drug use itself. Again, I don't expect you to agree, just offering some clarification of my understanding of the man.

 

Hopefully we can agree that the goal is to reduce or eliminate all of that crime. On that we are together. Only our methods differ.

 

Glad you enjoyed Buckley too, and glad we have found some element of common ground.

 

Jan