Biblical story question

[sgendler]

I have to do some research this weekend for a book I'm writing, but I thought I'd maybe get a head start by posting a question or two here.

 

My familiarity with the new testament is pretty limited. I attempted to read it once when I was 18 or 19, but I'm not terribly religious or spiritually minded, and my cultural background is all old testament, which I've been through a fair few times over the years.

 

At any rate, I'm looking to research stories in both the new and old testaments about the consequences (or not) of man meeting and/or 'understanding' god. Eff'ing the ineffable, as a friend of mine put it. I've got a fair handle on how it is treated in the old testament, but I've got a ways to go on new testament stories, so if anyone here can point me in a good direction, I'd certainly appreciate it. I know there were a fair number of folks talking about eBibles in palm pilots around here recently, so there must be some good expertise out there.

 

Thanks

 

-sam

[santaferider]

sgendler, I don't believe I have ever read a Bible, but if you'd like to "meet" God, just hike to the top of a mountain and sit there for a while with eyes and ears open.

 

As for understanding God, and what God is or stands for, that one is totally beyond this simple country boy's intellectual and spiritual capacity.

[David]

Sam, I'd love to help with it, but I'm not sure I understand the question. If it's about "refusing to believe" something, here are some passages to get you started:

 

1) Matthew 13, the parable of the sower, which, interestingly enough, borrows heavily from Isaiah in talking about rejecting God. What's interesting is that this act is pictured as willful, and described as "not understanding" or "not seeing." Be sure to see the synoptic parallel in Mark 4, which is even more poignant, as Mark typically is.

 

2) 1 John 5:20, which describes the purpose for Christ's coming with the goal of "bringing understanding" and "knowing him."

 

There are many others I can point you to, but essentially it's an intellectual faith and knowledge is viewed as willful, especially given the historical context and what the early NT writers (48 A.D. through just beyond 100 A.D.) were trying to accomplish.

 

On the other hand, if you are talking about how unapproachable God is, and how serious the consequences are for "knowing" him, you'll only find that in the OT, where the entire priesthood was designed as a "safe" conduit to God. At it's very core, the NT demolishes that reality: priests are unnecessary; the heavy curtain was ripped in two just after noon on the day of the crucifixion to symbolizing free and open access; etc. The very act of "becoming a man" WAS the sacrifice Jesus made: becoming "like" man in order to be accessible, and in so doing, taking on the limitations that come with it.

 

Anyway, I'll shut up until I understand your question more.

[SeanC]

Sam, you might find the book Ordinarily Sacred by Lynda Sexson interesting and useful to your research. I was fortunate to have her as a professor at MSU. She belongs to that special (and small) group of scholars who write with the skill and craft of a gifted novelist.

 

Info about her book here.

[sgendler]

ok, I'll try to clarify, although you are pretty much on the mark. I'm looking for references that address what happens, predominantly in judeo christian theology but Ill take anything, when man meets God, or man 'knows' god. My knowledge of Norse, Roman, and Greek mythology is pretty good on that score, as is my knowldge of Jewish theology, but I know little of other traditions. Define 'God' as you like, as enlightenment or as a deity, but I'm curious as to what various belief systems think happens when you meet god, or achieve enlightenment, etc.

 

--sam

[David]

Now I understand.

 

Most of the Gospels will be about what happens when you meet God incarnate (i.e., Jesus). The first sign that anything happens was when Jesus tagged along for the five mile trip from Bethlehem with his parents to Jerusalem for the annual Passover celebration. "Everyone who heard him was amazed" (Luke 2:47). He was twelve at the time.

 

From there, not much happened until he began a public ministiry (probably at age 26). Many of the pivotal moments in the accounts are defined by miracles, each meant to prove who he was, not necessarily to help people. And for those 3.5 years it was really an exercise in forcing people to make a choice. "Here's who I am. You either believe me or you don't." The Gospel of John will be your best source for a theological treatment (vs. a historical one). All this to say that "God" was a polarizing force in the NT. In the OT it was more about demanding respect for his presence as God, with more symbols, distinction, fear, punishment, prescription, and consequence.

 

After the Gospels, the early church, led by the apostles, developed this "faith" and spread it. There was a borrowed authority. (I'll finish this later, and then talk briefly about the apocolyptic era. Gotta eat dinner.)

[David]

So, the Gospels depict Jesus' life. They were written late (especially John), but they depict what happens when God becomes a human and interacts with other humans. It's not terrifying like "God encounters" were in the OT. To most people, if they even heard of him at all, Jesus was a fruitcake who said strange things. In the OT there was no question that you had an encounter with God: the ground opened up; the sea parted; millions of locusts landed on your food; manna covered the ground; whatever. But in the Gospel accounts God (as a man) appeared mainly to seekers who were open to the encounter.

 

Back to the post-Gospel era, covered mainly in the book of Acts and the epistles (1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, etc.). The simple faith was becoming a religion. "God" was mediated through community. The big powerful God of the OT wasn't messing around in human events like before. The meeker "human" God had died and, based on what you believed, had come back to life and gone back to his father's side.

 

This is the era of "borrowed authority" when great efforts were expended in trying to convince Jews that this Jesus guy was connected to the same God of the OT. Those they respected, the OT prophets, are said to have foretold this Jesus. They reached way back to the OT, and then not so far back to Jesus' life, and tried to tie them together (Romans and Hebrews are good examples of that). The goal was to force action. In Moses' day, you might be at the base of a mountian while it's shaking under a dark sky. There's no question that God or something is there, and s/he/it is a lot bigger than you. But by this time in history they don't see the same defining moments around them, and Paul, Peter, and others tried to force the issue. See Hebrews 2:1-4.

 

And since that probably wasn't going to be enough, John wrote Revelation more than 70 years after Jesus died. The whole book is about what happens when you meet God. If you do this, then this happens. But if you do that, then that happens. It's eschatalogical and meant to simplify the choices and clarify the implications of each. But in each case the watershed is "what you choose after you've met God." You might want to skim the first two chapters of 1 John.

 

Hope that helps.

[Couchrocket]

John wrote Revelation more than 70 years after Jesus died. The whole book is about what happens when you meet God. If you do this, then this happens. But if you do that, then that happens.

Sam,

 

David's exposition in the posts above is excellent, IMO, but I see the above cited passage as relating to a "Y" in the road which an encounter with God forces one to choose as a result (i.e. one direction or the other). It is there, a priori, in NT theology, but doesn't comprehensively address your "what happens when man meets God" question, IMO, from a broad NT perspective.

 

I'll take your question as, "What happens when man has a life changing encounter with God -- from a NT perspective?" as opposed to "meets God" in the "crashes into, or runs across, or runs afoul of" sense.

 

To that end, there is a passage in Romans (5:1-10) that speaks to what "has happened" when an individual "has a meaningful encounter" with God as revealed in the NT. In the encounter, God offers propositional content that can fundamentally affect both the "standing" of the individual before God, and that individual's internal view of him/her self and their relationship to the larger "order of things."

 

If I understand your question correctly, I can say that the NT perspective might be summed up as the individual becoming "a new creature" after the encounter, one enabled to have a personal relationship with the creator, and lived out in "community" with fellow "new creatures."

 

In this sense, NT theology is radically different from other religious systems.

[beemerman2k]

Hope that helps.

 

 

"God is in his Holy Temple. Let all the world be silent before him" - Hab 2:20

 

See, I knew loud pipes were a sin!

[SeanC]

Re: What happens when man has a life changing encounter with God -- from a NT perspective?, there's a cool song titled "Everything Falls Apart" (Dog's Eye View), about how the artist's life just isn't interesting except when things are falling apart, when he's alienated all of his friends, when the weather's bad, after the fun ends, when he can try to put everything back together again. Here's the verse I really dig:

 

I met God this afternoon, ridin' on an uptown train

I said, "Don't You have better things to do?"

He said, "If I did my job, what would you complain about?

So I let it go to Hell, then I'll something to do,

yeah, I let it go to Hell, doesn't that sound familiar to you?"

 

Yeah, I know it's not what Sam's talking about, but I like the song just the same.

[beemerman2k]

David's exposition in the posts above is excellent

 

For the record, I agree wholeheartedly. Great stuff David. Very well said (or written).

[David]

If I understand your question correctly, I can say that the NT perspective might be summed up as the individual becoming "a new creature" after the encounter, one enabled to have a personal relationship with the creator, and lived out in "community" with fellow "new creatures."

 

In this sense, NT theology is radically different from other religious systems.

 

Good thoughts, there. And it reminded me of the most telling "conversion" story in the NT: Paul himself. Paul had more impact on the early church than anyone else, and his conversion is chronicled in Acts 9. Be sure to take a look, Sam. Before that "encounter with God" on the road to Damascus Paul was a self-professed vigilante, hunting down and killing as many "Christians" as he could. It's an interesting story of a very troubled man, before and after that conversion.

[Rob L]

Nice to see that a motorcycle forum can incorporate our faith in God. Too often the focus becomes ourselves and our bikes which we try to place above other aspects of life. Jesus is the focus of the new testament. He IS God incarnate and teaches us through the Gospels and the NT letters about life and how to lead it. Basically to place the needs of ourselves after the needs of others. Jesus also never left. He remains in the form of Spirit which enables us to converse, praise, ask for help, etc. at any time or place. Finally, Jesus gives us the promise of eternal life in heaven with Him. Without this future hope, our lives are very shallow and self centered.

Thanks David for this site and God Bless you, Rob.

[David]

Nice to see that a motorcycle forum can incorporate our faith in God. Too often the focus becomes ourselves and our bikes which we try to place above other aspects of life. Jesus is the focus of the new testament. He IS God incarnate and teaches us through the Gospels and the NT letters about life and how to lead it. Basically to place the needs of ourselves after the needs of others. Jesus also never left. He remains in the form of Spirit which enables us to converse, praise, ask for help, etc. at any time or place. Finally, Jesus gives us the promise of eternal life in heaven with Him. Without this future hope, our lives are very shallow and self centered.

Thanks David for this site and God Bless you, Rob.

 

Oops. Rob, I'd just like to clarify that I was answering Sam's question from an historical/theological perspective and not my own personal belief system. The fact that I'm conversant with that stuff comes from a a different time in my life--years and years as a graduate student--when I was studying the languages of that era.

 

I have little respect for religion or religious systems of any kind, but I am not an athiest or even an agnostic. I have deeply held private beliefs that don't need to be any more than that.

 

I just don't want you to assume certain things from my discourse here, and I especially don't want you to assume that my private beliefs have anything to do with a motorcycle board. If you are interested, I'll be glad to chat about them over a few beers some day. We can talk about the parts of my upbringing that I embrace and the bulk of it that I don't. In terms of participation on this board, I don't care one whit what people believe. Heck, I never talk about it myself!

 

Cheers.

[Hermes]

I am currently reading Sam Harris' book 'The End of Faith'.

This is probably not what you are looking for, but it should be mandatory reading for any High School or College.

 

Jurgen

[sgendler]

OK, time to close this thread, mods. I'm not averse to the conversation, but it shouldn't be on this thread.

[David]

Sam, I was disappointed in the hijack, but really hated to see this closed because it's been fun. If you don't mind, I threw them over into another thread so that we can stay on track here.

 

If that's all you needed, cool, but if you want more information, this will allow it to continue.

[SeanC]

Define 'God' as you like, as enlightenment or as a deity, but I'm curious as to what various belief systems think happens when you meet god, or achieve enlightenment, etc.

 

Can a "belief system" be an individual? Or are you more interested in the Microsofts of belief systems (e.g., Catholic church, Islam, Protestants, etc.) for the purpose of your research? I think that distinction may be why your initial thread was hijacked -- you were getting responses to the former. David's got his MSE certification in Christianity. I have it installed, but am not a power user. Plus, I've also installed a bunch of unauthorized plug-ins, extensions, hacks, etc.

 

Can you talk a little bit about what your book is about, and how institutionalized belief systems are important to it? It sounds interesting.

[flyingreg]

ok, I'll try to clarify, although you are pretty much on the mark. I'm looking for references that address what happens, predominantly in judeo christian theology but Ill take anything, when man meets God, or man 'knows' god. ...but I'm curious as to what various belief systems think happens when you meet god, or achieve enlightenment, etc.

 

--sam

I hope this thread is still alive, and would like to add to it. I will speak to this from a Judeo Christian perspective. "Meeting God" is accomplished through gaining knowledge, understanding, and faith in Jesus Christ. Of course, you can learn of Him through the reading of books, but true understanding comes through a personal encounter. At the fall of man in the Garden of Eden, Adam's (read man's) transgression against God broke the relationship between man and God requiring the priesthood to be born to allow a path for man to communicate with God. God became man in the New Testament, in the form of Jesus Christ to remove the sin of man and allow a means for man to again commune with God. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father but by me." Through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus, a way was made for man to again meet God face to face, through Jesus Christ. What happens when a man meets God under His terms is you are able to build a personal relationship with Him.

 

I know I am being brief here, but I hope this will get you started on your search for understanding of this subject. I also, as David has said, would be happy to delve deeper into this subject with you.

[sgendler]

I trid to write up a summary of my book, but it can't be done without giving too much away. I've never tried my hand at creative writing before, but I sure don't want someone else writing my ideas, either, so I've got to keep it to myself, I'm afraid.

 

--sam

[SeanC]

I tried to write up a summary of my book, but it can't be done without giving too much away.

It can, it's just that it's really difficult to do. I usually can't do it, in fact, until I've finished writing (fiction, that is).

 

I've never tried my hand at creative writing before, but I sure don't want someone else writing my ideas, either, so I've got to keep it to myself, I'm afraid.

Understood. But speaking as a writer, both of fiction and non, I can assure you that any creative idea you have, can really only be written by you. You're an interesting guy, Sam, and you've got me intrigued by your project. Best of luck with it. I look forward to hearing more about it as it unfolds.