A Patient Prosecuted, The effect of a war we need to recognize

[azkaisr]

Walter Reed Story

 

This is NOT a political post on the merits of the war in Iraq so please respect my intent here. This story touched me because like most of us in here I get up everyday and for the most part never think of the thousands of soldiers who really need our nations help after serving in a war zone. This example may be somewhat of an extreme, but we should not forget those who are serving our country and will need our help in getting over what they have to deal with while the rest of us reap the rewards of their duty.

 

I for one hope I keep them in mind more going forward.

 

Kaisr

[roydog007]

Thanks Tom,

SNAFU - The way the Army seems to be handling this is all screwed up. They don't consider these soldiers as wounded in combat ?

I think the second suicide attempt should have been a clue something was amiss ?

[Eschelon1]

I retired with 40% disability and counting (At least my side stand leg is my good leg) and that's a walk in the park compared to how a lot of these guys come back. Let's just say I'm glad I didn't out process through Walter Reed. Hopefully they will get that mess straightened out.

 

My heart's with 'em.

[Ken H.]

I suspect this one story is just the tip of the iceberg. The poor way the gov't. treats veterans, especially post WWII veterans, is disgusting.

[Bud]

The true cost of the war will not only be measured in dollars.

[Dave McReynolds]

It wouldn't surprise me to hear that the Army will eventually decide that a medical discharge for the soldier was the right decision, after all. But I wonder if that would be the case if this story had not been widely disseminated, even to the point that it is noticed on a BMW motorcycle board. The only weapon these people really have is publicity. I fear more for those whose story is untold, like the thousands of vets who were dumped on the street post-Vietnam who ended up dying under railroad trestles or who may still be rotting in prisons, either manmade or of their own making. I hope we can avoid that mistake, this time. Keep up the good work, 4th estate!

[smiller]

Keep up the good work, 4th estate!

Hear hear.

[velomoto]

Thanks for sharing that sobering update on our military (and government) in action. I would suggest that everyone who truly feels strongly about this, take a few minutes and write you representatives in Congress, the Senate and even the President. Perhaps they don't read every email but when a flood of email comes in regarding one issue they do take notice and are most likely to react in an election year.

[Mike]

I couldn't even begin to guess how this will turn out, but I'm not so sure I disagree with having the military justice system sort this one out. I'll reveal my bias up front, by saying I'm a former military JAG.

 

First, though the story doesn't make this terribly clear, this case is apparently at the stage of the military justice process that is called an Article 32 Investigation. In the military, an independent officer (almost always a JAG) makes the determination that a grand jury makes in most civilian systems--whether there exists probable cause to refer a case to trial. In looking at the events that triggered this process--and understanding that the NYT version may not contain all the facts--this involves a situation in which a commissioned officer may have threatened to kill others, discharged a deadly weapon inside a building, and then turned the weapon on herself.

 

The process starts with an officer preferring charges against the individual. However, that step, while quite serious, is not nearly the end of things. At that point the military initiates a further investigation in the form of the Article 32 hearing, at which the investigating officer ("IO") hears the evidence against the accused. The military system provides a huge advantage to the defendant not available in civilian courts--the accused and his or her lawyers have the opportunity to hear that evidence, cross-examine witnesses, and present evidence and argument on the accused's behalf. After that, the IO makes a recommendation to a court-martial convening authority as to whether the case should be heard by a court-martial. A significant number of Article 32 hearings result in recommendations by the IO not to proceed to trial. That's a genuine possibility in this case. It's also possible, and happens with some frequency, that the convening authority may decide not to refer the case to a court-martial or might lower the charges, even if the IO recommends trying the case as charged.

 

However, assuming that the convening authority does decide to refer this case to trial, the defendant has greater opportunities to defend herself than the typical civilian defendant. She has access to defense counsel free of charge, to medical and mental health evaluations by experts in making determinations of mental responsibility, and to have her guilt or innocence adjudged either by a judge or a jury of military officers. In my time as an Air Force JAG, I prosecuted or defended over 200 criminal cases, and I have to say that, if I were truly innocent (whether by reason of insanity or by reason of just not having committed the acts charged), I would far prefer to be charged and tried in the military system than in any civilian court.

 

Speaking as a retired officer, I don't think it's at all inappropriate to refer a case in which an officer threatens others with death to the justice system. I hope that if she was truly not responsible for her actions she is not convicted. But, if she actually did what is alleged and was mentally responsible for her actions, she should pay the price.

[azkaisr]

Agree Mike

 

What concerns me though is not the specifics of the case that were reported (It was the Washington Post btw and not the Times), but more with how we treat folks who have been put under stress in a war zone. To me the woman who hung herself in Utah mentioned in the story because she was not afforded mental health services speaks volumes.

 

The fact that the officer who she claims instigated this ordeal has been reprimanded speaks to me also that she has a case. My background with dealing with the US Army is limited compared to other military forces I dealt with back in the day. But I got an email from a buddy of mine in Iraq this morning that is now working for a private firm after 20 years in and his comment is one I also value. This is what he said

 

I have been hearing bits and pieces of this. I honestly think she'll most likely come out ok if she'll stop trying to kill herself.

 

One thing is for certain, the Army (The DoD) is a prime place for walking talking A$$H#$&S to be successful. I've never been in a unit that didn't have a few. I'll never understand how or why these people get to the positions they do.

 

Even today I work with a higher amount of "Ring Knockers" and other ex officers then most and while the majority of them are stand up people, some are real tools when it comes to misusing authority.

 

Thanks for the insight

 

Kaisr

[Mike]

Even today I work with a higher amount of "Ring Knockers" and other ex officers then most and while the majority of them are stand up people, some are real tools when it comes to misusing authority.

 

That's the truth. Like any other segment of society, there are some "real tools." In the military, where life and death decisions are made constantly, the nimrods can drastically affect others' lives in a profound way.

 

And yes, I agree that we need to do better by those who have served. It's happening in a different fashion than it did during the Vietnam war, but we're not doing right by those who have served in the current conflicts. I've got a son who's training to be an Army aviation officer, and I'm terribly concerned about the failure of our government to care for the wounded, and the families of those who have been disabled or killed.

[Boffin]

Thanks for that insight into the US military justice system, it sounds far more equitable than the one we had in the RAF.

 

Leaving aside the specifics of this case, what shocked me about the article is the differing treatment of those suffering mental and physical conditions.

 

Military service places a high mental load on people, especially people in command. This stress is at its highest when the military force is engaged in combat. This has been recognised for generations. I would have hoped that as a species we were now able to recognise that where our young people have been mentally broken by their efforts to defend us, we would afford them the same respect as those who have been physically wounded. In fact, I believe we have a duty to respect those young people willing to stand up and place themselves in harms way to defend us, no matter what the cause may be. That duty exists in times of war or peace, whether the person is in the field of combat or not, whether they are injured or not.

 

Andy

[tobyzusa]

I think the life in prison sentence is far too lenient. Perhaps she should receive the death penalty for her crime.

[Where's the emoticon for loads of sarcasm.]

[Mike]

I would have hoped that as a species we were now able to recognise that where our young people have been mentally broken by their efforts to defend us, we would afford them the same respect as those who have been physically wounded.

 

We seem to be far from that. The treatment for those on active duty is focused on returning them to duty. If their mental health is so deteriorated that they cannot do that, then they are discharged and the responsibility for care falls on our Veterans Administration. The VA has a lot of people whose hearts are in the right place, but my impression is that it is woefully underfunded and incapable of dealing with the vast numbers of soldiers with mental afflictions. In the U.S. a large percentage of the homeless are veterans whose psyches were shattered by the experience of war. It's a national tragedy.

[ghaverkamp]

I would have hoped that as a species we were now able to recognise that where our young people have been mentally broken by their efforts to defend us, we would afford them the same respect as those who have been physically wounded.

 

We seem to be far from that. The treatment for those on active duty is focused on returning them to duty. If their mental health is so deteriorated that they cannot do that, then they are discharged and the responsibility for care falls on our Veterans Administration. The VA has a lot of people whose hearts are in the right place, but my impression is that it is woefully underfunded and incapable of dealing with the vast numbers of soldiers with mental afflictions. In the U.S. a large percentage of the homeless are veterans whose psyches were shattered by the experience of war. It's a national tragedy.

 

The problem of all of these psychic infirmities is that they're more difficult to treat than physical infirmities. They're harder to see. More importantly, the afflictions themselves often make those afflicted harder to treat. It's not surprising, really. It is difficult to collect damages for tortious psychic harm, and we as a society have a general distrust, I think, of those who claim serious mental problems.

 

(BTW, in case folks missed it, in one of the follow-up articles it said that after the hearing the decision was made not to try her. The day before she got that news, she attempted suicide again.)

[Twisties]

What a mess!

 

I've written and deleted two lengthy responses. The bottom line is I'm too conflicted to write about this clearly right now, and my feelings are too intertwined with politics to be allowed on this board.

 

Has anyone been following the NPR story on the VA being cut out of helping dischargees with their critical medical paperwork?

 

I'd better shut up before i say something I regret.

 

Jan

[StuGotz]

I think I'm with you Jan...

 

Hard to not get into politics when our treatment of Vets and returning soldiers

has changed recently...

 

Thanks Tom for posting this, it sometimes escapes our daily thoughts.

 

MB>

[Dave McReynolds]

Something is going on here. Last year there were 188 suicides of active duty military personnel. In 2005 there were 6,256 suicides of veterans. Veterans were more than twice as likely to commit suicide as non-vets. The highest suicide rate of all veterans were those between 20-24 years old. Source was this article.

 

The article goes on to point out that the current conflict is unique in this regard. In previous conflicts where statistics were kept, the suicide rate of military personnel was lower than for the population as a whole.

 

I thought Vietnam was pretty unpleasant, but most of us were in and out of there in a year. Very few had to go back for another year who didn't volunteer for an additional tour. We had daily beer rations in the field. The people were generally pleasant to us (even though some of them may have been trying to kill us at night). It wasn't as hot and miserable a climate. We could chop down sugar cane and chew on it as we walked along, and things like stray chickens and local veggies were usually available to supplement our C rations. Nobody expected anyone other than lifers to have a very good attitude, so we blew off steam by telling each other how much everything sucked. The women were reasonably good looking and at least smiled at us; we could chat it up with them without anyone getting upset about it. Generally we wore pretty much any parts, or lack thereof, of our uniforms we pleased (we weren't into ATGATT in those days). Officers, at least those in the field, at least had to pretend to like us, since we were the only friends they had at night. We knew that in X days we were going to go HOME!!!!

[velomoto]

Something is going on here. Last year there were 188 suicides of active duty military personnel. In 2005 there were 6,256 suicides of veterans. Veterans were more than twice as likely to commit suicide as non-vets. The highest suicide rate of all veterans were those between 20-24 years old. Source was this article.

 

The article goes on to point out that the current conflict is unique in this regard. In previous conflicts where statistics were kept, the suicide rate of military personnel was lower than for the population as a whole.

 

I thought Vietnam was pretty unpleasant, but most of us were in and out of there in a year. Very few had to go back for another year who didn't volunteer for an additional tour. We had daily beer rations in the field. The people were generally pleasant to us (even though some of them may have been trying to kill us at night). It wasn't as hot and miserable a climate. We could chop down sugar cane and chew on it as we walked along, and things like stray chickens and local veggies were usually available to supplement our C rations. Nobody expected anyone other than lifers to have a very good attitude, so we blew off steam by telling each other how much everything sucked. The women were reasonably good looking and at least smiled at us; we could chat it up with them without anyone getting upset about it. Generally we wore pretty much any parts, or lack thereof, of our uniforms we pleased (we weren't into ATGATT in those days). Officers, at least those in the field, at least had to pretend to like us, since we were the only friends they had at night. We knew that in X days we were going to go HOME!!!!

Now THAT is a sad commentary - when the Vietnam War can be painted as a better situation for our soldiers.

[azkaisr]

Just read this and thought it was really worth posting in here. I have another good friend who sent me this message. It speaks of an era even before Vietnam where the mental health of soldiers was both questioned and understood.

 

Thought this an interesting quote after reading the story.

 

After the publication of the death photo of Ernie Pyle, I started

re-reading "Brave Men"

 

Last night I came across this bit.

 

"Like all front-line medical officers Captain Allamon was touched by

what he called the 'mental wreckage' of war--the men whose spirits break

under the unnatural strain and incessant danger of the battlefield. He

felt that American children in recent generations have had too much

parental protection and too little opportunity for self sufficiency, and

that as a result a man crumbles when faced with something he feels he

cannot bear.

 

Personally I am sort of on the fence. I hate to think of an America of

one hundred thirty million people so hard inside that nothing could

touch them. On the other hand, comparatively few men do crack up. The

mystery to me is that there is anybody at all, no matter how strong, who

can keep his spirit from breaking in the midst of battle."

 

Ernie Pyle

 

 

 

Funny how things don't change.

 

Dan

+Tiff

 

I am sure most in here know that Ernie Pyle was a renowned WWII correspondent who was killed covering the war in the Pacific. The Book Dan references is a worthy read.

 

Kaisr

[PRC]

I have read the article and the responses here on this tread. While this is an unfortunate situation and my heart goes out to this young lady, based on the facts related in the article (granted there probably is volumes of info missing) I don't see this as brought on by the rigors and mental strain of combat. If I was reading this correctly, she was an outstanding officer who is beloved by her troops. Her issues began when she started being messed with by her superior (in rank only) officer. As he continued to mess with her and attempt to undercut her troops loyalty, she started towards the edge until, in one of the examining doctors words, she "fell off." Well folks, as mentioned before, this occurs in all facets of society and workplaces, look at the postal workers who go "postal." In fact society makes jokes about it. I want to be clear, I am extremely thankful for ALL of these brave kids doing what they do. Because of them, I am able to spout off like this. I do find it reprehensible however, that others, use the legitimate illness of PTSD as an excuse to commit actions that are wrong. Call me callous or whatever you want to, but the facts that have been relayed to me in the article (see above disclaimer) do not support PTSD to me. What I see is someone who went over the edge because they couldn't handle the situation they were in. As someone who has experienced Nimrods like the one she had to deal with, I recall my superiors relating to me how in the "day the squad would have fragged their ass." I guess what I'm trying to say is that she should have gone over his head and reported her situation to her C.O. Sure, maybe she'd be labeled as a whiner. Her troops would know better but maybe she wouldn't be in the current situation. Just because this event happened in theater, doesn't make it special. As with so many others in this "at will" country, she was pushed by her boss over the edge, period. By the media using this as a story that conveys the rigors and horrors of war, is inexcusable and serves as an injustice to those who are fighting, healing those that are "on the line" and come home shattered, broken and without hope.

 

That's my uneducated, non professional opinion. It with $3.25 will get you a latte at your favorite Starbucks!

[Mister Tee]

First off, let me say that women always have and presently do serve honorably in the military and are a great asset to our forces, and I certainly intend no offense or disrespect to any segment of our fighting forces. But I am in the firm opinion that women should not be placed in a combat role, or one that is close to it, since it places women in an abnormally close working relationship to men. This appears to be the primary factor that is relevant to the subject story.

 

I’ve experienced that before and it has been a real problem. Several years ago when I was in, I attended a primary NCO development course. Most of the attendees (like myself) were in combat arms, but there people from other branches as well, including a handful of women that were distributed up among the training platoons. In short, it was essentially basic training again – an intense, close working environment, with a lot of field activities. Did it work out? In my opinion, it was a complete disaster. As a platoon leader of my training unit, it was a full time job keeping the men focused on their jobs and away from the women, and at the same time it was a significant task to counsel the women when they were stressed, which took considerably greater effort than that required for men that were stressed. Competition developed. Fights broke out. Morale was low. In the end, we were all glad simply to get back to our units because the competitive pressure was off. And this only lasted three weeks.

 

There are those that would argue “well, but the women can handle it just fine, it’s the men that can’t handle it. Men just need to change their attitudes.” Well, okay fine, but if we pacify the men, which are 99% of our combat fighting force, we undo tens of thousands of years of primal behavior, and we remove the testosterone, survival instincts and aggression that is required to be an effective fighter. How smart is that. Even in this modern age of buttons and missiles, you still need fighters in the field.

 

That particular issue notwithstanding, candidates for Rangers and Special Forces, and to some degree for line Infantry units go through some degree of qualification and selection, and those that are unsuitable for either physical or psychological reasons are generally weeded out in training prior to being placed in service. Yeah I struggled for a while after I got out, I had all kind of issues, but I was a big boy and I worked them out. I think we’re placing too little responsibility on the individuals to solve their problems, and we’re too reliant on external care. Mama ain’t always going to be there to comfort baby, so baby better grow up and get a handle on things.

[azkaisr]

 

 

2 things, there are many examples in other countries where women in combat and combat support roles have been used to good effect.

 

... the Soviet Union is one of the first contemporary societies to employ women extensively in its armed forces. Women served as “women soldiers” in World War I,fought in the Revolution, and even provided combat units during World War II, when three women’s air regiments flew combat aircraft and 23 of their fliers were named Heroes of the Soviet Union.5

 

 

 

Women also served with ground combat units as snipers, machine gunners, and tank crew members.6 While 40 percent of the medical officers at the front were women, the greatest percentage of women served in rear areas to release men for combat duty.7

 

 

450 women currently serve in combat units of Israel's security forces, primarily in the Border Police. Yael Rom, the first female pilot in the Israeli Air Force earned her wings in 1951[3]. The first female jet fighter pilot, Roni Zuckerman, received her wings in 2001[4]. In November 2007 the first woman was appointed to the rank of deputy squadron commander[5].

 

I got both of these doing just a quick google on women in combat.

 

The other thing I am going to respectfully take issue with you is this statement

 

Yeah I struggled for a while after I got out, I had all kind of issues, but I was a big boy and I worked them out. I think we’re placing too little responsibility on the individuals to solve their problems, and we’re too reliant on external care. Mama ain’t always going to be there to comfort baby, so baby better grow up and get a handle on things.

 

If your brain is not functioning or you are mentally ill, then all bets are off on your capability to "get a handle on things" most likely. By this, I am fighting Stills Disease right now where my brain is telling my body to attack my joints. So far trying to deal with my brain has proven to not make it stop sending that signal. For me some forms of mental illness sure seem similar.

 

 

Kaisr

[Mister Tee]

I'm just relaying my experiences and observations. I'm not in any way arguing that women can't pick up a rifle and shoot - not at all. Women fighter pilots don't quite fit in to the scenario to which I was referring, neither does the Israeli army, since for them war is almost a 9 to 5 job. Their conflicts are short and close to home.