Is Christmas a day dedicated to celebrate of the birth of Christ?

[KMG_365]

And, that discussion almost immediately devolved into petty attempts to impugn each other’s views

Wow. Interesting perspective from the one who lobbed out this gem: "The last guy who said that got shot in the face" (actually King was severely beaten by a mob of LEO's for resisting arrest, never was shot and he made that statement well after the event to try to quell the riots that ensued). Interestingly, this comment struck me as one of the most inappropriate responses to the whole thread. Now that you've revealed your true agenda in posting the query, it now reads almost as if it wasn't deteriorating fast enough for you so you'd give it a push in the "right" direction.

 

Otherwise, I didn't see that much actual intolerance (with the few notable exceptions), unless you consider the attempts to clarify or give historical background as intolerance (which I don't see as fitting the definition). I think it stayed rather civil and even solicited some real gems (Mike's post to wit). Perhaps we're finally figuring out where the line is to continue the discussion like adults. But really, let he who is without prejudice cast the first stone! Everyone has prejudices--it's just that most aren't nearly as aware of their own as they are of others'!

 

Is this the community we want to be?

Dude, where've you been hiding out? This IS the community we've been for about ten years now--I don't see it changing very much in the future. Those who are truly intolerant will grow disgusted and wander off (or be shown the door if they refuse to wipe their feet). I'm sure many have already. Those who need more "reality" will go over to ADVrider and hang out in the bar. Those who appreciate a largely civil place full of bright folks who know how to behave and even disagree in a civil manner (even if they might need reminding of their manners on occasion) treasure this place as a haven from the rest of the World Wild Web--and they can surf from work without getting in trouble!

 

And don't forget: this is a DISCUSSION Board . . . if you're going to throw that sort of chum into a tank full of sharks don't then be surprised if a feeding frenzy ensues!

 

We had to ban politics for similar reasons as it was making enemies out of riding buddies based on issues completely unrelated to riding. Now thanks to a number of these sorts of "wedge" threads we've probably got a bunch more members making judgments about others who they've yet to meet ITRW and now might not be so eager to approach them at a gathering. That's a shame. It's fine to wish that we had all evolved to be above such things (like ignoring the "racial sticks and stones"), but it's a big world out there and some folks haven't gotten out much. Others are just now learning to use the web to explore it and bumping into people who don't make the same assumptions or think like they do. This is a natural consequence of a shrinking world and we'd better get used to it (that and start learning Chinese! ).

 

Still sometimes I wish people would show some restraint when posting "hot button" topics just to watch others twist in the wind or worse, hoist on their own petard. It just pokes the hornet's nest and stirs things up unnecessarily.

 

Oh, and here's another tip: don't solicit "input" for a ride you're planning on this DISCUSSION Board either, unless you want to stir it up even more! DAMHIK!

[Firefight911]

"The last guy who said that got shot in the face" (actually King was severely beaten by a mob of LEO's for resisting arrest, never was shot and he made that statement well after the event to try to quell the riots that ensued). Interestingly, this comment struck me as one of the most inappropriate responses to the whole thread.

 

Nope! He was shot in the face just a couple weeks ago. He is correct! LINKY

 

***EDIT: Changed the link source to avoid R rated material.***

[David]

It was a ridiculously simple question. “Do you believe Christmas is a day dedicated to celebrating the birth of Christ?” The only answers were ‘yes’ or ‘no.’

 

So, what was the point? Simple, it was intended to illustrate the intolerance, prejudice and lack of civility which has permeated this board. Nowhere in my initial post did I make any point nor did I solicit any discussion, yet that was exactly the result. And, that discussion almost immediately devolved into petty attempts to impugn each other’s views and nit-pick the syntax of the poll like teenager’s arguing over the performance characteristics of their family-sedan-turned-school-cars.

 

Is this the community we want to be?

 

Your history of trolling likely made this less of a simple question and instead yet another thread with circular arguments that get boring quickly. It looked to me like nothing more than another controversy waiting to happen.

 

Merry Christmas.

[Yeeha! Stephen]

Duh!

 

Well, it's not called Muhammadmas, is it?

 

That was good!

 

Local radio station is pushing Rama-Hanna-Kwans-Mas!

[onmyrt]

For those among us that are philosophically secular,

we always have the spirit of 'Santa Claus'.

[SageRider]

Wow....

Nice post, Jamie!

[steve.foote]

Your history of trolling likely made this less of a simple question and instead yet another thread with circular arguments that get boring quickly. It looked to me like nothing more than another controversy waiting to happen.

 

On the surface, it might look like simple trolling. But, rest assured that it only appears that way. Some problems can be effectively explored with a magnifiying glass. But, every once in a while a sledgehammer is just what the doctor ordered.

 

Merry Christmas.

 

Merry Christmas to you, too.

[Bud]

Your history of trolling likely made this less of a simple question and instead yet another thread with circular arguments that get boring quickly. It looked to me like nothing more than another controversy waiting to happen.

 

On the surface, it might look like simple trolling. But, rest assured that it only appears that way. Some problems can be effectively explored with a magnifiying glass. But, every once in a while a sledgehammer is just what the doctor ordered.

 

Merry Christmas.

 

Merry Christmas to you, too.

 

Not being the brightest bulb in the headlamp, I don't see the problem that needs exploration.

 

As a Christian believer, Christmas is, for me, a time of reflection and examination. How others choose to deal with it is their business, not mine.

 

As a grandfather, it is a time of great fun. Even our oldest grand children still believe in Santa (maybe for the last year). Nancy is in charge of spoiling them all by picking out their gifts and she is a very generous Nana.

[SageRider]

Bud,

[steve.foote]

Jamie, I'm not going to point-by-point your post, but it does go to the core of what I perceive as the issue here.

 

First off, let me clear the table by admitting here and in the full spotlight of public scrutiny that I am not a perfect human being, in spite in what many here may have been told. (Hint: that last part was a joke.)

 

Here is the dealie-wheelie as I see it. I perceive a conflict of consistency here. Some topics, arguments, discussions (whatever we want to call them) are tolerated, while others aren’t. The most notable place I see this is within religious topics. If religious discussion is going to be allowed, it needs to be open and honest, and represent the views of all who want to participate in a civil manner. Otherwise, it should simply be banned as being too volatile for useful conversation here. Personally, I don’t care one way or the other, but the policy does need to be consistent.

 

Maybe I should have just posted this to begin with. It’s something that has been bothering me for a while and I really didn’t know how else to present it. I’m a visual kind of guy who has been known to hunt gophers with a howitzer so please excuse my clumsiness as I try to annunciate what I genuinely feel, but don’t know how to say without offending a friend.

[SageRider]

Ahhhhh...

The crux of the matter....

What is the proper load to hunt gophers with a howitzer?????

[Matts_12GS]

Jamie, I'm not going to point-by-point your post, but it does go to the core of what I perceive as the issue here.

 

First off, let me clear the table by admitting here and in the full spotlight of public scrutiny that I am not a perfect human being, in spite in what many here may have been told. (Hint: that last part was a joke.)

 

Here is the dealie-wheelie as I see it. I perceive a conflict of consistency here. Some topics, arguments, discussions (whatever we want to call them) are tolerated, while others aren’t. The most notable place I see this is within religious topics. If religious discussion is going to be allowed, it needs to be open and honest, and represent the views of all who want to participate in a civil manner. Otherwise, it should simply be banned as being too volatile for useful conversation here. Personally, I don’t care one way or the other, but the policy does need to be consistent.

 

Maybe I should have just posted this to begin with. It’s something that has been bothering me for a while and I really didn’t know how else to present it. I’m a visual kind of guy who has been known to hunt gophers with a howitzer so please excuse my clumsiness as I try to annunciate what I genuinely feel, but don’t know how to say without offending a friend.

 

Go Steve Go!!!

[Huzband]

At least you haven't been called a grenade thrower.

[Ken H.]

Let's put Christ back in Christmas

Right back where he belongs

Let's put Christ back in Christmas

And back in our favorite Christmas songs.

 

Frosty the Snowman was Jesus Christ's best friend

and he stood there melting by the cross until the very end.

 

You better not shout, you better not cry

You better not pout I'm tellin' you why

Jesus Christ is coming again.

 

Jesus the longhaired saviour

had a very shiny glow

And if you ever saw it

You would call it a halo.

 

I think it's great Christians celebrate the birth of Christ, after all they should! To do anything less would be being untrue to what they believe in. I also think it's great that a multitude of other people choose (and can choose) to celebrate the season and day in different ways. Or even not at all.

 

But the problem with the cliché, "Put Christ back in Christmas" is it is often used to say that the celebration of Christ's birth is all Christmas should be. That anybody who feels the season/day has other importance other than birth of Christ is wrong and needs to 'come around' from "Happy Holidays" to 'Merry Christmas." And that's just being narrow-minded. To put it mildly.

[notacop]

Not anymore. I've heard on the radio, happy Seasonal holidays. A blatant illimination of the Christ part.

Some YO-YO at work has put up a huge air driven globe on the workroom floor of a Disney Mickey head with other figures inside as merry go round. Banner says Merry Christmas, Where's the Christ part. Sheese! Bah, Humbug!

[steve.foote]

Ahhhhh...

The crux of the matter....

What is the proper load to hunt gophers with a howitzer?????

 

Michael, that depends entirely upon the length of your howitzer's barrel and the weight of the gopher. I'd recommend somewhere between "a lot" with "a whole heck of a lot" just to be sure. After all, you wouldn't want to accidently wing the poor little feller.

[KMG_365]

On the surface, it might look like simple trolling. But, rest assured that it only appears that way. Some problems can be effectively explored with a magnifiying glass. But, every once in a while a sledgehammer is just what the doctor ordered.

First, this reminds me of someone's sig line: "How many legs does a dog have if you call the tail a leg? Four. Calling the tail a leg doesn't make it a leg. If it walks like a troll and talks like a troll, it doesn't really matter what you want to call it. And I don't remember Leslie ordering a sledgehammer. In fact I think she made her wishes with respect to stuff like this pretty well known and you're just left looking impertinent.

 

I perceive a conflict of consistency here. Some topics, arguments, discussions (whatever we want to call them) are tolerated, while others aren’t. The most notable place I see this is within religious topics. If religious discussion is going to be allowed, it needs to be open and honest, and represent the views of all who want to participate in a civil manner. Otherwise, it should simply be banned as being too volatile for useful conversation here. Personally, I don’t care one way or the other, but the policy does need to be consistent.

So you're actively TRYING to get religion banned as well because the conversation is not going the way you'd like?? Don't forget that your perception is just that, and no--we don't feel we HAVE to be consistent we try our best, but we are also human. In the end Leslie is free to run her house in whatever way she feels is conducive to serving our mission here and keeping the peace. If you don't agree, fine, but you do not make policy here nor are you the arbiter of consistency. Leslie and the rest of the Admins let conversations go on as long as they remain civil and haven't already devolved into circular arguments or tit-for-tats. That is a judgment call. If we let it go on too long people get pissed off, if we shut it off too soon people call us intolerant, or jack-booted Nazi's who trample on their "rights" to free speech, who only live to squash others' opinions who do not agree with us. We can't win for losing and with topics like these someone is sure to be unhappy no matter the outcome.

 

Maybe I should have just posted this to begin with. It’s something that has been bothering me for a while and I really didn’t know how else to present it. I’m a visual kind of guy who has been known to hunt gophers with a howitzer so please excuse my clumsiness as I try to annunciate what I genuinely feel, but don’t know how to say without offending a friend.

If you've got a beef with DB policy you are free to PM Leslie or another Admin as directed in the User Agreement. These sorts of trolling posts to "make your point" are tantamount to public arguing with moderator actions and are DEFINITELY not appreciated.

 

P.S. Les says to empty your PM's.

[SageRider]

In the end Leslie is free to run her house in whatever way she feels...

Amen!

[Ken H.]

happy Seasonal holidays. A blatant illimination of the Christ part.

When the season includes Christmas (nobody's moved it) how does "Happy Seasonal Holidays" eliminate it? Or any other of the celebrations of various things around now for that matter. It seems to me it is an inclusive phrase not an exclusive one. (Although I will have to admit it, is a bit of a mouthful to say!)

a huge air driven globe on the workroom floor of a Disney Mickey head with other figures inside as merry go round. Banner says Merry Christmas, Where's the Christ part.

Well in the very least, in the "Merry Christmas" greeting it contained. At least Mickey wasn't holding a banner that said, "Happy Seasonal Holidays", right?

 

 

 

Besides, if you believe in Christ and all that he symbolizes, even if you/we just pause for second and silently in your/our heart say, "Happy Birthday Jesus Christ", isn't that all that really matters? And all that goes on around you/us in the world just becomes static noise irrelevant to the core subject?

[steve.foote]

Mailbox is cleaned out. Digesting your post.

[SeanC]

I think it's great Christians celebrate the birth of Christ, after all they should! To do anything less would be being untrue to what they believe in. I also think it's great that a multitude of other people choose (and can choose) to celebrate the season and day in different ways. Or even not at all.

 

But the problem with the cliché, "Put Christ back in Christmas" is it is often used to say that the celebration of Christ's birth is all Christmas should be.

Just to be clear, the "Let's Put Christ Back in Christmas" song to which I linked is satire. It's a humorous take on the idea and by no means a battle cry.

 

But I have to ask how serious are you when you say Christmas is a holiday that people can celebrate however they choose? I'm sure you mean that, but does your open-mindedness in this regard apply to other holidays, or only to Christmas? I ask because in another thread you sharply rebuked the selling of ham products for Chanukkah, in fact labeling it as "stupid." Admittedly, this was my first reaction too. But upon reflection, I'm beginning to think why not market ham products for Chanukkah? Ham has always been a traditional part of other feasts (e.g., Christmas, Easter, etc.), and surely there are a great many non-observant Jews who enjoy ham and other pork products, so why limit them, not to mention non-Jews, from celebrating Chanukkah however they see fit? The Pork Industry just might be on to something here....

 

The potential is there for other holidays as well. I mean, maybe there are more people who'd like to celebrate Ramadan, but aren't too keen on the idea of not eating between dawn and sunset for an entire month... How 'bout "HotPockets for Ramadan," tasty meat and bread snacks you can microwave in minutes? Or for the slightly more observant, maybe some delicious Ramadan bacon you can fry up before sunrise....

 

Of course, these are religious holidays, but shouldn't secular holidays be considered as open and welcome to all comers? Like, maybe we should honor and celebrate conscientious objectors on Veterans Day? Farmers on César Chávez Day? Congressmen and judges on Presidents Day? Influential industrialists and tycoons on Labor Day?

 

I used to think it was a bit rude when people would wear Orange on St. Patrick's Day, but maybe they're trendsetters and not trying to pick fights with Irish Catholics at all. Hmmm.... I wonder how well a Leif Erikkson float would be received in the Columbus Day parade in Newark, NJ....

 

Okay, so those last few were a bit facetious, but I am serious about asking whether your views on Christmas apply only to Christmas and Christians, and if so, why?

[steve.foote]

Jamie, you are absolutely right.

 

Let me start by quoting one of my dad’s favorite sayings, “Q: Why did the naked man jump on a cactus? A: Because he thought it was a good idea at the time.” Well, that’s where I find myself right now. I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that Guiness Book is contacting Leslie right now securing the details of the worst attempt at communicating an idea ever recorded in human history.

 

I feel very strongly about this community and have a lot of good friends here. And, I do feel that there is something wrong with the character of some of our communications, but what started out as an emotionally guided and poorly executed attempt to communicate my feelings turned into something which failed my original goal completely and ended up hurting feelings and causing additional headaches for Leslie and the rest of the moderators. If there is a worse way for me to have attempted this, I would like to know about it just out of morbid curiosity.

 

At this point, I’d like to stop this train wreck right in it’s tracks and apologize to those who have been harmed by what I have done. I am truly sorry. If nothing else good comes out of this, it might be wise to print this thread and use it as a guiding light for what not to do.

[ESokoloff]

Steve, a former employer always told me "It's not how bad you screw it up, it's how well you fix it"

 

I think you did a good job on the latter & your heart was in the right place on the former.

 

Thats just me and no doubt others think I'm wrong on both counts

[Ken H.]

But I have to ask how serious are you when you say Christmas is a holiday that people can celebrate however they choose? I'm sure you mean that, but does your open-mindedness in this regard apply to other holidays, or only to Christmas? I ask because in another thread you sharply rebuked the selling of ham products for Chanukkah, in fact labeling it as "stupid." Admittedly, this was my first reaction too.

Well first off, perhaps abhorrently unfamiliar with Jewish laws/traditions, at best, or abhorrently insensitive or intentionally insulting, at worst, would have been a better descriptive than "stupid." I'm just shocked that in this day and age whomever made up those signs wouldn't be aware of their implications. But if people who don't follow the practice of not eating pork want to eat it on Chanukkah, more power to them, enjoy the meal. The lack of cultural sensitivity (intentionally or not) in making and placing the sign is what got me.

 

But to your question about celebrating Christmas in non-Christian ways, first I have to remind that it's origins are not Christian. So almost by definition people can, and should be able to celebrate it in different ways. Plus "Christmas", in at least the western usage, has come to mean more than December 25th. It is a whole season of celebrations. Thus to attempts to limit it to just the celebration of one man's birth (which wasn't on that date to boot) seems an attempt to hijack something for a specific purpose that it never was to start with.

 

ISFA other holidays, no I don't see what would be gained (even if we could) by limiting the celebration of them to certain groups of people. Only let Veterans celebrate Veterans Day? I don't get it.

[JMR]

Steve,

I’ve seen subjects like “oil plugs” on this site get sliced and diced into so many fashions and layers; I get amazed how far something can be dissected here. (Which is good). In the process many tangents occur because of miscommunications and misunderstandings (Which is bad). You started this thread with “It’s a simple question” and it is… No doubt that Christmas is a day of observation, it’s marked on every calendar, …the poll as I see it is about Christ.

Anyway, I voted my ‘yes’ to the poll and now my two cents:

For the last 1600 years, the winter holiday that goes back before the time of Christ has been observed according to the influence of the Christian church… hence the spelling.

The holiday is CHRISTmas, it seems rather straight forward what it’s about. What we as individuals make it is another matter. Nobody seems to get the meaning and purpose of New Year’s Day confused with anything. Same with Thanksgiving. But I don’t think New Years Day or Thanksgiving really steps on anybody’s toes… Christ does, (He said He would), and therefore Christmas does. People can’t handle that. Christ made people uncomfortable 2000 years ago and He still does. We as people (IMO) have decisively moved Christmas further and further away from the intent of the Christian observation in order to distance ourselves from Christ. (Same with Easter.) Protecting the toes.

 

Merry Christmas to you and all who would accept my humble holiday wish, (no problem if you don’t), as I joyously celebrate the birth of the Christ.

[SeanC]

Well first off, perhaps abhorrently unfamiliar with Jewish laws/traditions, at best, or abhorrently insensitive or intentionally insulting, at worst, would have been a better descriptive than "stupid." I'm just shocked that in this day and age whomever made up those signs wouldn't be aware of their implications.

I agree with you on this point -- the marketing of ham in that fashion seemed rather bizarre -- but there's another point you're touching on that interests me. You acknowledge that the holiday of Hanukkah comprises Jewish religious traditions to which we should all be sensitive. I agree with this. It is a religious holiday. A specific religion's holiday. Christmas, too, is a specific religion's holiday. Yet I don't get the feeling you believe that specific religion or its traditions deserves the same degree of sensitivity....

 

But to your question about celebrating Christmas in non-Christian ways, first I have to remind that its origins are not Christian.

I think you're confused on this point. While it's true that Christ was most likely not born on December 25th, and that the early Christian church chose to celebrate Christ's birth on or around the winter solstice instead, perhaps to co-opt the existing feast of Saturnalia, or perhaps just out of convenience, but Christmas is by definition a Christian holiday and always has been.

 

Now if you meant to say that solstice celebrations are not Christian in origin, well of course. The pre-Christian Greeks, Romans, Celts, Norse, et al. all had important solstice religious holidays. It's a powerful time of year, the season of light, a time of reflection and hope. Christians didn't invent that.

 

As for celebrating the solstice -- or the god Saturn, Yule, whatever -- that's all perfectly fine. I think it's kinda cool that all these religious holidays happen around the same time, which is why a greeting such as "Happy Holidays" doesn't bother me. But don't try to tell me "Christmas" isn't Christian. That's as insensitive and insulting as Spiral Ham and Pork Chops for Hanukkuh.

 

Linus (well, Charles Schulz) nailed the meaning of Christmas on A Charlie Brown Christmas. He used Luke 2:8-14 to explain what Christmas is all about. And guess what? That's all it's about -- nothing more or less than that. It's beautifully simple.

 

ISFA other holidays, no I don't see what would be gained (even if we could) by limiting the celebration of them to certain groups of people. Only let Veterans celebrate Veterans Day? I don't get it.

Maybe you don't get it because you didn't read it... See, I didn't say anything about only Veterans celebrating Veterans Day. I asked how you would feel if we used a holiday such as Veterans Day to honor conscientious objectors (as opposed to it being a holiday dedicated to the honor of veterans). Surely you see the difference.

[Francois_Dumas]

Jamie, you are absolutely right.

 

Let me start by quoting one of my dad’s favorite sayings, “Q: Why did the naked man jump on a cactus? A: Because he thought it was a good idea at the time.” Well, that’s where I find myself right now. I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that Guiness Book is contacting Leslie right now securing the details of the worst attempt at communicating an idea ever recorded in human history.

 

I feel very strongly about this community and have a lot of good friends here. And, I do feel that there is something wrong with the character of some of our communications, but what started out as an emotionally guided and poorly executed attempt to communicate my feelings turned into something which failed my original goal completely and ended up hurting feelings and causing additional headaches for Leslie and the rest of the moderators. If there is a worse way for me to have attempted this, I would like to know about it just out of morbid curiosity.

 

At this point, I’d like to stop this train wreck right in it’s tracks and apologize to those who have been harmed by what I have done. I am truly sorry. If nothing else good comes out of this, it might be wise to print this thread and use it as a guiding light for what not to do.

 

 

This is an excellent reply Steve, thank you for that. I was one of the people worried about what you had started.... and what your intentions were. (And no, I am not religious, just worried about where the board's discussions go sometimes).

I am glad to see 'I' was wrong (!!) and you meant 'something else' (remember, these sort of discussions are particularly 'hard' on us non-English speakers ).

 

As usually, GOOD people apologize. Thank you !

 

Kind regards,

Francois

[Fajah]

Jamie, you are absolutely right.

 

Let me start by quoting one of my dad’s favorite sayings, “Q: Why did the naked man jump on a cactus? A: Because he thought it was a good idea at the time.” Well, that’s where I find myself right now. I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that Guiness Book is contacting Leslie right now securing the details of the worst attempt at communicating an idea ever recorded in human history.

 

I feel very strongly about this community and have a lot of good friends here. And, I do feel that there is something wrong with the character of some of our communications, but what started out as an emotionally guided and poorly executed attempt to communicate my feelings turned into something which failed my original goal completely and ended up hurting feelings and causing additional headaches for Leslie and the rest of the moderators. If there is a worse way for me to have attempted this, I would like to know about it just out of morbid curiosity.

 

At this point, I’d like to stop this train wreck right in it’s tracks and apologize to those who have been harmed by what I have done. I am truly sorry. If nothing else good comes out of this, it might be wise to print this thread and use it as a guiding light for what not to do.

 

 

“God bless us every one!” said Tiny Tim, the last of all.

[Joel]

Jamie, you are absolutely right.

 

Let me start by quoting one of my dad’s favorite sayings, “Q: Why did the naked man jump on a cactus? A: Because he thought it was a good idea at the time.” Well, that’s where I find myself right now. I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that Guiness Book is contacting Leslie right now securing the details of the worst attempt at communicating an idea ever recorded in human history.

 

I feel very strongly about this community and have a lot of good friends here. And, I do feel that there is something wrong with the character of some of our communications, but what started out as an emotionally guided and poorly executed attempt to communicate my feelings turned into something which failed my original goal completely and ended up hurting feelings and causing additional headaches for Leslie and the rest of the moderators. If there is a worse way for me to have attempted this, I would like to know about it just out of morbid curiosity.

 

At this point, I’d like to stop this train wreck right in it’s tracks and apologize to those who have been harmed by what I have done. I am truly sorry. If nothing else good comes out of this, it might be wise to print this thread and use it as a guiding light for what not to do.

 

Steve, I'm trying not to take sides or make judgments, but I want you to know I'm impressed by those words in these circumstances. I don't really know you, but those words reflect what I thought I understood of your character.

 

From where I sit, I suggest it might be wise to use the conclusion of this thread as a guiding light for others on how to "man up."

[lawnchairboy]

hey steve:

 

It takes courage to post in a public forum when you know and are known by more than a few folks in the environment here. Happy holidays to you and yours.

 

chris

[BFish]

steve...never really had a problem with any of this. if you still feel bad and need an excuse blame it on being from georgia!

 

happy holidays to everyone.

[Ken H.]

I think you're confused on this point. While it's true that Christ was most likely not born on December 25th, and that the early Christian church chose to celebrate Christ's birth on or around the winter solstice instead, perhaps to co-opt the existing feast of Saturnalia, or perhaps just out of convenience, but Christmas is by definition a Christian holiday and always has been.

Well on that you and I will just have to agree to disagree. To me (and I suspect to others) Christmas is much more than just Christian holiday. It is a celebration of family, friends, giving, fortune, thanks, and goodwill to others. Just to start with.

See, I didn't say anything about only Veterans celebrating Veterans Day. I asked how you would feel if we used a holiday such as Veterans Day to honor conscientious objectors (as opposed to it being a holiday dedicated to the honor of veterans). Surely you see the difference.

OK, but that ties back to our core difference of opinion of what Christmas is. As I understand, it you see Christmas as a singular purpose holiday, whereas I don't. OTOH, many of the other observed holidays, especially the more secular ones, were created for a specific purpose. So celebration of the specific purpose/cause/reason makes more sense. It's not an apples to apples comparison in my mind.

[RonStewart]

Blatantly stealing Leslie's link from another thread, this link points out well that the December 25th holiday has far more implications - Origin of Christmas

 

Very interesting information - I was unaware that Christmas had a pagan origin. Makes the crass commercialism a lot easier to deal with now!

Ever since I came to the same realisation about twenty years ago, I feel much better at this time of year. Right on, soboy.

[skinny_tom (aka boney)]

If for no other reason, posts like this exist so that I may know what to discuss with whom when I have the honor of meeting them.

[Marty Hill]

You both have dirt bikes and I know and like both of you. That's a start.

[SeanC]

Well on that you and I will just have to agree to disagree. To me (and I suspect to others) Christmas is much more than just Christian holiday. It is a celebration of family, friends, giving, fortune, thanks, and goodwill to others. Just to start with.

You bet, just as Hanukkah can be a celebration of family, friends and a feast of ham. To borrow your words, if people who don't believe in Jesus Christ or follow the Christian faith want to celebrate on Christmas, more power to them. Enjoy the holiday. Extend a warm greeting of a merry Christ's mass to your family, friends and guests. It's all good.

 

You should also keep in mind that when you hear the phrase, "Let's put Christ back in Christmas," (an idea you labeled cliche), that it's NOT a message intended for you. Seriously. You're not a Christian after all, so how can you be expected to put something back you didn't have to begin with? You're someone who celebrates a non-religious holiday that happens to also fall on December 25th, and one which you've chosen to call "Christmas" (and of course you can call it anything you want). Rather, this message is actually directed toward Christians, a reminder to them that Christmas is not about consumerism and holiday sales, or even about trees and reindeer and a jolly fat man in Victoria's Secret pajamas.... a reminder to them that even though these traditions are all great fun, the meaning of Christmas is about a different kind of gift, about tidings of great joy, about a child and a ray of hope for peace on earth and goodwill toward man.

 

You may be annoyed when you see or hear that message, but again, because you're not the intended audience, I would suggest tolerance on your part. I.e., ignore it, but show some sensitivity and don't belittle it.

[skinny_tom (aka boney)]

You both have dirt bikes and I know and like both of you. That's a start.

 

That's a fantastic start! I wrote that as a reply to his comments about why he started the thread.

 

It's not pointed at him.

[Ken H.]

You may be annoyed when you see or hear that message, but again, because you're not the intended audience, I would suggest tolerance on your part. I.e., ignore it, but show some sensitivity and don't belittle it.

I'm not trying to belittle it, and if I came across that way, I apologize.

 

But I do think the term is used in broader ways than just as a reminder to Christians. Promoting boycotts of stores/business that don't use "Merry Christmas" for example. Or the Rush, O'Reilly & Ann Coluters of the world who promote 'forced Christianity' so to speak. (As if there really was such a thing.)

 

And it really doesn't annoy me, it actually takes quite a lot for me to become truly annoyed. It's just an interesting discussion point. People say, "Merry Christmas" to me all the time, and I take it in the true sincere meaning I'm sure it is intended - Wishing me the very best. And when/if I reply, "And a Happy Holidays to you and all of yours" back, I hope they take it, as it is meant; in exactly the same way.

[SeanC]

But I do think the term is used in broader ways than just as a reminder to Christians. Promoting boycotts of stores/business that don't use "Merry Christmas" for example.

Perhaps, but they're presumably other Christians doing the boycotting. The message was intended for them and for reasons important to them they decided to act on it. And that's their prerogative, isn't it? I mean, if a conservative group of observant Jews called for a boycott of stores selling "Hanukkah Ham," how surprised would you be? I'm not suggesting people should participate in such boycotts, or even that the call to boycott is warranted, but if people feel their religious traditions -- be they Christian, Jewish, whatever -- are being exploited or disrespected, who are we to tell them otherwise?

 

If certain Christians choose to only do business with merchants who explicitly wish them a Merry Christmas and who adhere to Christian relgious traditions, well, I'd tell them good luck with that.

 

Or the Rush, O'Reilly & Ann Coluters of the world who promote 'forced Christianity' so to speak. (As if there really was such a thing.)

Be careful there... you're precariously close to stereotyping Christians as listeners of conservative talk radio.

[Firefight911]

[russell_bynum]

 

[KMG_365]

As the Admin who ended taking up point on this thread let me just chime in here quickly while Sean and Ken are on a commercial break ( ) . . . .

 

As evidenced by Steve's humble and heartfelt apology above you all are now aware of the man's true heart and strong character. Leslie and I have known him for years now and have had the pleasure of his and his lovely wife's company many times. I want to clear the air here publicly as well lest anyone think there is more animosity between us than is apparent. Rest assured it's all good and we're all still huggy-kissy!

 

One of the reasons we request arguments with DB policy happen off-line is that many times there are events that are not aired in public that have had a bearing on decisions made. Rest assured, Leslie gives her care of this place her utmost attention and she makes no decision rashly or out of malice. Besides, she also has an awesome group of Admins (here) to keep her focused, and to help interpret and determine policy. For those of you know them, you know this group are a wise, diverse and balanced bunch (myself excluded naturally, and I'm as well aware as anyone that David felt he had to allow me in just to get to Leslie! ). Frankly, most folks here will never really fully realize how fortunate they are that Leslie is the Proprietor here and not one of the many other candidates!

 

Steve's heart was in the "right" place ( ), but we've all seen things play out on this DB in very different ways than we originally intended. We've all been there (or will be) and I've certainly learned my share of painful lessons here at the hands of some excellent guides. Frankly, an education on life is actually one of the services this community can provide. This is why many of those who have grown to love it defend it staunchly.

 

There may be little hope for some of the more narrow minded, but Leslie and I try to NEVER give up all hope. I believe you create your own reality and so you might as well create the perfect world you want to live in. Part of that is one in which allowances are made for our humanity, and it is what is in your heart and what you do with life's lessons that really make the difference in the end.

 

And speaking of human foibles and reality, some are quick to jump to conclusions by what is or is not posted here in some manufactured time-frame. This can be tricky as, don't forget, there is a whole world out there outside of this DB and believe it or not Leslie and I actually have a life ITRW. We have not been as present here as perhaps we might otherwise be, for in the last two days our reality has been . . . anxiously awaiting the birth of our first Grand Child!!!!

 

Leslie's youngest son, Damon's wife, Christine had to finally give up after many long hours of labor and opt for Cesarean Section (she's 19 years old, was not much over 100 pounds and is 5'1", he's 6'5" . . . ) . . .

 

. . . and brought into the world a beautiful 9 pound 11 ounce (and 21" long! ) bouncing baby girl last night at 19:32 hours PDT!!!

 

So while this will be a particularly warm and festive Holiday Season for us, we wish the same for you and yours however you celebrate it!

[Firefight911]

Leslie's youngest son, Damon's wife, Christine had to finally give up after many long hours of labor and opt for Cesarean Section (she's 19 years old, was not much over 100 pounds and is 5'1", he's 6'5" . . . ) . . .

 

. . . and brought into the world a beautiful 9 pound 11 ounce (and 21" long! ) bouncing baby girl last night at 19:32 hours PDT!!!

 

So while this will be a particularly warm and festive Holiday Season for us, we wish the same for you and yours however you celebrate it!

 

Hey!!! No hijacking a thread most have given up on!!!!

 

Mods: Move this portion to its rightful place so all can bestow the best wishes that are most assuredly deserved.

 

And allow me to be the first to extend our family's heartfelt congratulations to Grandma, Mom, Dad, and Grandpa Jamie!

 

 

Well done!!! Well done!!!

[Whip]

"(......... and I'm as well aware as anyone that David felt he had to allow me in just to get to Leslie! ).

 

 

David made us promise not to tell.....

 

 

GrandmaMamaHoon......I like it!!!

 

 

Who has the ceegars????

 

 

Whip

[SageRider]

Congrats to Christine and Damon and the proud grandparents!

(but I still can't believe you dared to walk away from the board even for just a little bit! )

 

(By the way, great hijack! )

[ESokoloff]

Congrats Grand Ma & Pa

[SeanC]

That's awesome! Congrats and hoony wishes on your grandparenthood!

 

Isn't it amazing how quick that jump from PTA to AARP can be? (PTAAARP?) Life moves on at a hoonish pace, that's for sure. Here's to hoping we're all alive and kicking when you and Les announce your greatgrandparenthood.

 

[tobyzusa]

Congratulations Leslie and Jamie!

[Lawman]

[Twisties]

Congratulations Jamie, Leslie, Christine, Damon and the rest of your families!

 

Great new avatar fitting the occasion Jamie!

 

Have a happy holiday season, and enjoy the little one.

 

Jan