End of the boxer?

[Tapatio]

Are the hexheads the last generation of boxer engines that BMW will produce? I've heard that BMW is struggling to find a way to make the boxer engine compliant for future emission/noise regulations.

 

For the love of the beautiful boxer!

[John Bentall]

Are the hexheads the last generation of boxer engines that BMW will produce? I've heard that BMW is struggling to find a way to make the boxer engine compliant for future emission/noise regulations.

 

For the love of the beautiful boxer!

 

BMW have tried once before to wean off the Boxer engines with an in-line triples and fours - and they failed. There's loads more technology to try - including direct petrol injection like Audi's FSI - before the Boxer gives up the ghost.

[UberXY]

I'm with John on this one. I heard a lot of dire talk about the end of the boxer when I bought my airhead in '86; then it wasn't an emissions problem - it was a power problem. And now we have 100 HP boxers.

 

BMW and the other German car manufacturers are using Bosch's direct injection system on their cars. This, and the corresponding software improvements, ought to keep the boxer in compliance for a while yet. Throttle by wire will help too, as it optimizes throttle opening and closing rates.

[Huzband]

I don't care what you read, BMW ending production of the boxer is like HD ending production of the V-Twin.

 

Ain't gonna happen in our lifetime.

 

BTW, in my one year plus on this board, this has already been beat to death.

 

Just like oil, final drives, tires, bulb changes, batteries, etc....

 

And, for what it's worth, I asked all the questions about every subject I just mentioned.

 

So, don't feel bad.

[rob1100r]

Never Happen! I bet this latest boxer runs as clean as any other production bike! When the Oilheads first came out they were amongst the cleanest runners out there!

[JamesW]

Some folks would argue that the "legendary motorcycles of Germany" ended production in 1995. Interesting observations in this months issue of ABC Airmail by the esteemed editor. He states, "Had they (BMW) continued to refine the airhead, BMW would have; (1) Saved the fortunes spent on R&D for the myriad models which followed. (2) Sold more bikes by staying true to their heritage as Harley has. I'm told that Bmw made more bikes than Harley as late as 1987. (3) Been able to retain their Legendary Motorcycles of Germany slogan which is laughable today. (4) Retained many BMW afficionados forced to go elsewhere for lightweight, nimble, high torque machines. (5) Made a fortune on parts instead of forcing dealers to care parts which might never sell for umpteen models. (6) Retained their excellent mom and pop dealer network which gave BMW a huge advantage over the competition. (7) Retained the homogeneity of the BMW community - it's most influential wellhead of conquest sales. -ed" I, for one, would not be one bit surprised to see BMW drop the boxer given the direction the company has chosen to go with new model after new model many of which seem to have problems heaped upon problems. Why do I make this statement? Just read the never ending threads posted on this site concerning drive train problems that just never seem to end.

[TowJam]

Some folks would argue that the "legendary motorcycles of Germany" ended production in 1995. Interesting observations in this months issue of ABC Airmail by the esteemed editor. He states, "Had they (BMW) continued to refine the airhead, BMW would have; (1) Saved the fortunes spent on R&D for the myriad models which followed. (2) Sold more bikes by staying true to their heritage as Harley has. I'm told that Bmw made more bikes than Harley as late as 1987. (3) Been able to retain their Legendary Motorcycles of Germany slogan which is laughable today. (4) Retained many BMW afficionados forced to go elsewhere for lightweight, nimble, high torque machines. (5) Made a fortune on parts instead of forcing dealers to care parts which might never sell for umpteen models. (6) Retained their excellent mom and pop dealer network which gave BMW a huge advantage over the competition. (7) Retained the homogeneity of the BMW community - it's most influential wellhead of conquest sales. -ed" I, for one, would not be one bit surprised to see BMW drop the boxer given the direction the company has chosen to go with new model after new model many of which seem to have problems heaped upon problems. Why do I make this statement? Just read the never ending threads posted on this site concerning drive train problems that just never seem to end.

The drive train problems aren't limited to boxers.

[blkvelvt]

Porche tried to kill their boxer years ago with the 924, 944, 928 and other front engine cars. The lust for the design wouldn't allow them to stop production. I think the same thing exists here with BMW. They will go to the ends of the earth to keep it in production.

[Baba_ORiley]

Hmmmm... Both Porsche and Subaru continue to have boxers as their mainstay engine designs (although they are watercooled). I'd say there's no reason a boxer design can't continue indefinitely.

 

 

 

.

[11101110]

Goldwings are boxers, aren't they?

[superjohn]

Why would a boxer configuration be any less likely to be able to meet emmissions and noise regulations than any other design? I think the fact that it's oil/air-cooled has more to do with that, but even so BMW has some smart engineers. I think they'll continue to find ways to keep the boxer viable because it has such optimum power characteristics for a majority of street riding.

[Limecreek]

BMW = Roundel

BMW = Boxer Configuration in the moto world

 

I don't think they will flush the key part of their brand recognition without a fight.

[John in VA]

Does anyone seriously think BMW would drop their #1 and #2 selling bikes? (RT & GS)

 

While there are zillions of v-twins and inline 4s out there, there's only one boxer twin, and it sells very well.

[oiasghar]

Nope I think they have something up their sleeve. Check this out... BMW in WSBK Now the million dollar question is what motor. I think now that WSBK allows 1200cc twins, it will be a liquid cooled boxer. If they succeed in WSBK, people will accept the motor as a worthy successor to the current boxer. They have said many times, not much more can be extracted from the current hexhead. Though they just unveild the HP2 Boxer Road bike. Or may be a 1000c inline four .

[TowJam]

I think now that WSBK allows 1200cc twins, it will be a liquid cooled boxer.

Nope - an i4 liter bike:

 

http://www.visordown.com/motorcyclenews/view/wsb_scoop_bmw_to_compete_in_2009/1549.html

 

Postings on some other forums indicate that some journalists have already ridden the bike but are under NDA.

[John in VA]

Nope - an i4 liter bike:

 

... with a chain drive.

[Eschelon1]

Could be...Porsche gave up the air cooled boxer years ago, partly for emmissions, but mainly for performance. They had tweeked the air cooled engine to it's limit then decided to switch to water cooled engines to keep up with BMW & Mercedes in the luxury sports car market.

 

The higher the compression (and therefore higher combustion tempuratures) the more HC and CO burn off but NOX levels rise. The Cat Coverter is used to mainly reduce the NOX levels but also help burn off any remaining HC and CO.

 

So, if BMW can make a cat for the boxer motor that keeps up with emmission laws (Cost effectively mind you) then we should see the boxer motor around for a while.

 

 

Medical studies show that most men die before their wives because...They want to!

[texasaggie97]

I honestly think that BMW would have been really stupid to spend millions of dollars redesigning that Boxer only to stop making that engine. I honestly think that I will not be around when they phase that engine out.

I look forward to seeing what BMW has up next.

[OlGeezer]

Some folks would argue that the "legendary motorcycles of Germany" ended production in 1995. Interesting observations in this months issue of ABC Airmail by the esteemed editor. He states...

 

<snip>

 

You have to keep in mind that Jan Hoffman smokes some good shit.

 

BMW never sold as many airheads per year as they have oilheads/hexheads.

 

The oilheads/hexheads are (at least) four times the bike (power, brakes, alternator, lights) the best model airhead ever was.

 

The FD crap is way overblown, just like global warming. Airheads also had their problems. Be sure to ask Jan if his U-Joints ever gave him any problem. That's a rhetorical question, BTW.

[russell_bynum]

BMW have tried once before to wean off the Boxer engines with an in-line triples and fours - and they failed. There's loads more technology to try - including direct petrol injection like Audi's FSI - before the Boxer gives up the ghost.

 

Yes...that's exactly what a modern-day BMW needs...more overengineered technological whizbangs.

[John Bentall]

BMW have tried once before to wean off the Boxer engines with an in-line triples and fours - and they failed. There's loads more technology to try - including direct petrol injection like Audi's FSI - before the Boxer gives up the ghost.

 

Yes...that's exactly what a modern-day BMW needs...more overengineered technological whizbangs.

 

Russell, will you please spare a thought for those of us who still own or want to own BMW's!

[Geoff2]

I would maybe agree that the air cooled boxer may disappear, but the boxer engine generally will continue. They are used in many cars, Imprezza, Porsche and are used on other motorcycles Honds Gold Wing is a flat 6 boxer design. However, all of the above are water cooled and maybe that is where BMW wll go with their boxer engine, even making maybe a 4 cyclinder

[Wyn]

"It's the jugs!"

[russell_bynum]

Russell, will you please spare a thought for those of us who still own or want to own BMW's!

 

I still own a BMW. (Lisa's R1100RS)

 

And I very much like several of BMW's current offerings, including the R1200ST, the R1200RT, and the K1200R Sport.

 

But it is exactly that sort of finicky, failure-prone, overengineered crap that kept me from buying a K1200R instead of my Tuono.

 

If the choices are:

1. Keep the boxer because "BMW's have boxer motors", and implement another jury-rigged, overcomplicated, expensive bit of technology to make it comply with emissions regs.

2. Switch to a different powerplant that provides acceptable power delivery/maintenance intervals/reliability/longevity/etc without needing another jury-rigged, overcomplicated, expensive bit of technology to make it comply with emissions regs.

 

It seems pretty stupid to me to go with Option 1.

 

But what do I know? I'm just a guy who likes to ride motorcycles. I don't have any loyalty to any particular brand. When I look for a motorcycle, I don't put "Must have this specific engine configuration" on my requirments list. I'm looking for a certain end result, and I don't care what they put in the bike to get me that end result. I don't buy motorcycles for nostalgia or tradition.

 

The boxer may be a fantastic powerplant. It may be able to meet all the current and future emissions regs without having to do anything funky. If BMW keeps it for that reason, then I've got no problem with that. If they keep it because "BMW's have boxer motors", then I'm not interested in that at all.

[JamesW]

Some folks would argue that the "legendary motorcycles of Germany" ended production in 1995. Interesting observations in this months issue of ABC Airmail by the esteemed editor. He states...

 

<snip>

 

You have to keep in mind that Jan Hoffman smokes some good shit.

 

BMW never sold as many airheads per year as they have oilheads/hexheads.

 

The oilheads/hexheads are (at least) four times the bike (power, brakes, alternator, lights) the best model airhead ever was.

 

The FD crap is way overblown, just like global warming. Airheads also had their problems. Be sure to ask Jan if his U-Joints ever gave him any problem. That's a rhetorical question, BTW.

 

So you think this "final drive crap" is overblown like global warming do you? Tell that to the guy that just paid about 21K for his beemer only to have the FD explode. And hey genius, when it comes to your lop sided view on global warming you maybe know of another planet fit to inhabit close by?

[OoPEZoO]

So you think this "final drive crap" is overblown like global warming do you? Tell that to the guy that just paid about 21K for his beemer only to have the FD explode. And hey genius, when it comes to your lop sided view on global warming you maybe know of another planet fit to inhabit close by?

 

Whoa there James......he was quoting something that was written by someone else (the editor from the Airheads Beemer Club Newsletter)........not voicing his own personal opinion.

[Mike]

Keith, thanks for clarifying that.

 

As far as the boxer design is concerned, I'm not really tied to it personally--there are both inherent advantages and disadvantages to any engine layout, the boxer included. However, I think it does make a difference to a lot of BMW's loyal customers, and that they'd lose a fair amount of sales by eliminating the boxer. The question is whether they could make up those lost profits with some other platform(s).

 

One of the things I don't get about the original article is the notion that it might not be feasible to meet future emissions standards with a boxer design, since it couldn't be water-cooled. As already noted, Honda's been making water-cooled boxers for some time. The current air/oil-cooled hexhead is among the cleanest motorcycle engines on the market. What about the boxer makes it inherently less susceptible to being made environmentally acceptable?

[russell_bynum]

One of the things I don't get about the original article is the notion that it might not be feasible to meet future emissions standards with a boxer design, since it couldn't be water-cooled. As already noted, Honda's been making water-cooled boxers for some time. The current air/oil-cooled hexhead is among the cleanest motorcycle engines on the market. What about the boxer makes it inherently less susceptible to being made environmentally acceptable?

 

I don't know, but I'm thinking it is a cornering clearance thing. If you insist on a 2-cylinder 180-degree opposed twin, then you add all the extra overhead (pun intended) of the water cooling, you'd eat into the already limited cornering clearance by making the engine even wider than it already is.

 

If I'm not mistaken, Honda's "boxer" is a 6 cyl, so they're trading length for width. That's not such a big deal on a Goldwing since nobody really expects it to be an ultra-nimble bike, but on a sport tourer, it's not such a great thing.

[John Bentall]

I agree that if one is going to go the water cooling route then there is absolutely no need for the cylinders to point into the airstream like a boxer.

[JamesW]

So you think this "final drive crap" is overblown like global warming do you? Tell that to the guy that just paid about 21K for his beemer only to have the FD explode. And hey genius, when it comes to your lop sided view on global warming you maybe know of another planet fit to inhabit close by?

 

Whoa there James......he was quoting something that was written by someone else (the editor from the Airheads Beemer Club Newsletter)........not voicing his own personal opinion.

 

Actually Keith, I think he was responding to my previous post where I was the one that quoted the editor of ABC. No matter. In my opinion motorcycles really make no sense at all particularly to those of us that choose to inhabit areas of the country that have rather harsh winter environs making motorcycles not really practicle forms of year round transport at all. Therefore, for many of us, motorcycles become a kind of impracticle emotion driven purchase hence the popularity of HD. Now, it may be true that new designs like the oil and hexheads are technically superior to that of the airhead at its best but for many of us they may lack that certain something that appeals to our impracticle side. Of course when it comes to such things as a spline lube I would much prefer attempting this on my airhead rather than my technically far superior 1150RT. Oh, early on this summer I contacted a BMW dealer in Post Falls, ID about the possibility of getting a brake flush on my technically superior oilhead and was told that the service department was so overloaded that they were not making any new appointments for service for several weeks. That '81 airhead started looking even better. Long and short is that there are many of us that wish BMW would have just stuck to basics and continued to build light weight, simple to service, quality machines and left the hi-tech wonders to other so inclined manufacturers. To BMW's credit they do a good job of supporting the older machines and I hope this continues awhile longer and I hope the flat twin soldiers on be it air, oil, or hexhead.

[Mike]

I agree that if one is going to go the water cooling route then there is absolutely no need for the cylinders to point into the airstream like a boxer.

 

I don't know if I'd go that far. You'd still have the inherent advantages of a low center of gravity and perfect primary balance. However, at some point the disadvantages would overcome the advantages.

 

One "what if" that often comes to mind harkens back to the 1970s, when BMW was working on some alternative engine designs. If I recall correctly, they were on the verge of announcing that the aircooled boxer was going to be replaced by a four-cylinder water-cooled boxer, when someone beat them to the punch:

 

 

Not wanting to appear as though they were mimicking the Japanese, BMW dropped the idea of a boxer four.

[russell_bynum]

Not wanting to appear as though they were mimicking the Japanese, BMW dropped the idea of a boxer four.

 

Personally, that seems like a really f-ing stupid reason to ditch all of that R&D work.

 

I guess they got over that with the new Yamaha-esque K-motor.

[GregB]

But what do I know? I'm just a guy who likes to ride motorcycles. I don't have any loyalty to any particular brand. When I look for a motorcycle, I don't put "Must have this specific engine configuration" on my requirments list. I'm looking for a certain end result, and I don't care what they put in the bike to get me that end result.

I agree completely, it is how the bike works that is important even if appearance or tradition or whatever is a part of that - a tiny part in my opinion. It does seem to me that BMW will be forced to move away from an air cooled engine for emissions at some point. Water cooling a boxer could be done but doesn't seem efficient if you are trying to make a SPORT-tourer. They might be able to take the "oil head" design a bit further and control temperatures better without going all the way to water cooling. That might be a bigger problem trying to get ultra fast warmup than trying to control maximum temperature.

After owning 4 previous boxer BMWs, I actually looked hard at a non-BMW or non-boxer and ended up with the R1200RT because it felt "right". I wouldn't care if it had one cylinder or seven if it felt "right".

[OoPEZoO]

Actually Keith, I think he was responding to my previous post where I was the one that quoted the editor of ABC. No matter.

 

you are correct.....I take it back

[Mike]

Not wanting to appear as though they were mimicking the Japanese, BMW dropped the idea of a boxer four.

 

Personally, that seems like a really f-ing stupid reason to ditch all of that R&D work.

 

That's the way I remember it being discussed in the motorcycle press at the time. There may have been more to it, or perhaps they just weren't satisfied with the engine that was developed. However, it did strike me as kind of dumb at the time. Maybe, though, it makes more sense if you understand what had happened just a few years earlier--Honda had leapfrogged everyone else in the motorcycle industry with its CB750 four, a stunning bit of technology at an affordable price. My guess is that the Germans were hoping to wow the world with their technological prowess and were dumbstruck when Honda again beat them to the punch.

[russell_bynum]

Maybe, though, it makes more sense if you understand what had happened just a few years earlier--Honda had leapfrogged everyone else in the motorcycle industry with its CB750 four, a stunning bit of technology at an affordable price. My guess is that the Germans were hoping to wow the world with their technological prowess and were dumbstruck when Honda again beat them to the punch.

 

Ah yes...good old German arrogance.

[John in VA]

As cool as the hexhead design already runs, I don't think you'd need much added plumbing/jacketing to watercool the cylinders to further stabilize temperatures for future emissions requirements. I'd think they could integrate an oil/watercooler unit in roughly the current location.

 

As to cornering clearance, that need not change -- why would the valve covers need to be waterplumbed?

[John in VA]

Ah yes...good old German arrogance.

 

We all know the Japanese are never arrogant about their tech prowess. How long did the CBX last? How long did the Accord Hybrid last?

[John Bentall]

BMW is mainly a car-maker. In the 1970's if BMW had produced a flop like the Suzuki "flying kettle" or Van Veen Wankel rotary, that probably would have been the end of motorcycle production.

Honda have always had 5,000,000+/year 50/90cc Cubs produced in myriad factories around the globe to cover up any minor failures.

BMW have also had to cope with "accountants" much sooner than the Japanese and that has meant that the pace of R&D has been slower in some ways.

I bet BMW would loved to have made a Gold Wing, but it would probably have had a R100RS fairing on it and even self-levelling Nivomat suspension! They would have thought,"What use was the power if you could not cruise at 100mph for 6 hours at a time and then negotiate multiple hairpin bends".

[HexHead]

Long and short is that there are many of us that wish BMW would have just stuck to basics and continued to build light weight, simple to service, quality machines and left the hi-tech wonders to other so inclined manufacturers.

 

Don't worry, Ural has your future needs covered.

[bimmers]

So we ride what we enjoy, BMWs and if there are FD failures we get them fixed. The total nr of these failures is probably pretty low after all, just talked about by those who have not had it. (I will probably encounter one tomorrow!!)

BMW started off with 4 bangers (V8 in the 508 far past as well)in the cars and went to I6 the smoothest engine there is. Then came the V8 in the 7s and the V12 even.

Exemplary development of better and better technology. We will see the same in the motorcycles, with or without Boxers.

WHy did I get a BMW boxer? Because I saw them as police motorcycles as a kid and I loved the sound.

 

Live for the future

[OlGeezer]

So you think this "final drive crap" is overblown like global warming do you?

 

Yep.

 

Tell that to the guy that just paid about 21K for his beemer only to have the FD explode.

 

Hey, parts break. How many FDs go 100k miles? Mine did. So have many, many others.

 

And hey genius, when it comes to your lop sided view on global warming you maybe know of another planet fit to inhabit close by?

 

My lop sided view? It's the same view of the majority. It just that the minority who has bought into it is the noisy part. It's that group who, when someone disagrees with them, they resort to name calling.

[OlGeezer]

 

Whoa there James......he was quoting something that was written by someone else (the editor from the Airheads Beemer Club Newsletter)........not voicing his own personal opinion.

 

Thanks, Keith, but I was pretty much voicing my own opinion.

 

[OlGeezer]

Long and short is that there are many of us that wish BMW would have just stuck to basics and continued to build light weight, simple to service, quality machines and left the hi-tech wonders to other so inclined manufacturers.

 

Don't worry, Ural has your future needs covered.

[JamesW]

Awwww, come on OLGeezer lighten up. Besides I'm probly older than you anyway

[JamesW]

Ural Uuuh, does it come in blue?

[OoPEZoO]

 

Whoa there James......he was quoting something that was written by someone else (the editor from the Airheads Beemer Club Newsletter)........not voicing his own personal opinion.

 

Thanks, Keith, but I was pretty much voicing my own opinion.

 

 

I see that now.......voice away

[rob1100r]

Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

And hey genius, when it comes to your lop sided view on global warming you maybe know of another planet fit to inhabit close by?

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I for one enjoy the warm weather over the cold (not that I can't HANDLE the cold....Doesn't the Earth's climate go in cycles....?

[Bob_Minor]

Long and short is that there are many of us that wish BMW would have just stuck to basics and continued to build light weight, simple to service, quality machines and left the hi-tech wonders to other so inclined manufacturers.

 

Don't worry, Ural has your future needs covered.

 

Does Ural get some sort of exemption from the EPA?