stop sign cameras in CA.

[barncobob]

http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/18/1846.asp

[outpost22]

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

 

Kalifornia strikes again

[BrianT]

And speed cameras. Nevermind that it's illegal to do the automated speed cameras and the terms of the contract with the automated enforcement company are illegal as well. It sounds like in the long run the courts will prevent them from doing the speed tickets, but after how many people have already had to pay the tickets and then wait on hopefully getting refunded. If they amend their contract to change the way the automated enforcement company is paid the stop sign cameras will stay unless a new law prohibits it. I love how they think the laws passed by legislature do not apply to them.

[smiller]

California law explicitly prohibits both speed cameras and per-ticket photo enforcement contract provisions, but the MRCA believes the law does not apply to them.

Of course not... when California voters and legislators make laws they don't really mean it...

[Tool]

I love how they think the laws passed by legislature do not apply to them.

 

 

 

 

From the article:

 

California law explicitly prohibits both speed cameras and per-ticket photo enforcement contract provisions, but the MRCA believes the law does not apply to them.

 

 

 

 

The Mountains Recreation and Conservation Authority???

 

 

 

I believe the "MRCA" laws do not apply to me!

[Eschelon1]

Hmmm...I don't beleive there is anything in the stop sign law that specifies how long you have to be stopped, just that you must come to a complete stop. So if you don't stop long enough for the camera to register the non-movement you get a ticket???

 

Don't look at me, I voted for Regan.

 

[BrianT]

Hmmm...I don't beleive there is anything in the stop sign law that specifies how long you have to be stopped, just that you must come to a complete stop. So if you don't stop long enough for the camera to register the non-movement you get a ticket???

 

Don't look at me, I voted for Regan.

 

Quoting the California Vehicle Code:

 

22450. (a) The driver of any vehicle approaching a stop sign at the entrance to, or within, an intersection, or railroad grade crossing shall stop at a limit line, if marked, otherwise before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection.

If there is no limit line or crosswalk, the driver shall stop at the entrance to the intersecting roadway or railroad grade crossing.

 

As you can see, there is no amount of time specified, just a full and complete stop has been the accepted court standard. Some traffic schools and judges recommend a 1 second stop simply because then it would be obvious that you had stopped to anyone else, such as a Police Officer, but it is not a requirement.

 

Like they said before though, the law doesn't apply to them.

[Paul Mihalka]

Are we really talking "stop sign" cameras, like a crossing with only a sign that says "stop", or are we talking red light cameras? Checking on a full stop in the right place must be much more tricky than simply ticketing one who drives across when the light is red.

[JerryMather]

Actually......I'm shocked that I haven't heard of people taking a can of spray paint to as many of these things they can find in the middle of the night.

Could be a good use to those taggers talents, IMO.

[TowJam]

I always thought that a complete stop for a motorcycle required a complete stop - with both feet on the ground.

 

That said, I'm a felon. Although I've been through both MSF courses, I still have a habit of keeping my feet on the pegs when coming to an empty intersection - or approaching a right-turn-on-red with no traffic.

 

Given that as of this coming Monday, my city (Coppell, TX) will go live with 3 new stop light cameras, I'm going to have to rethink my strategy.

[blkvelvt]

I always thought that a complete stop for a motorcycle required a complete stop - with both feet on the ground.

 

What if both feet don't reach the ground? Some people like me even have a sidecar. Neither foot touches the ground. It sounds like someone got some Grant money for a "Pet Project" that will eventually fail.

[Baba_ORiley]

So... unlike the usual justification for redlight cameras, they aren't even trying to say these cameras exist in the name of "safety", are they? I mean how many people are killed by a car going gently going 1 mph through a stop sign vs. a 0 mph full stop?

 

It's extremely clear that revenue and revenue only drives this one.

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

[BrianT]

Are we really talking "stop sign" cameras, like a crossing with only a sign that says "stop", or are we talking red light cameras? Checking on a full stop in the right place must be much more tricky than simply ticketing one who drives across when the light is red.

 

They are talking about introducing cameras at a sign that says stop, which is something new here. We've had Red Light cameras for years.

[James Clark]

Actually......I'm shocked that I haven't heard of people taking a can of spray paint to as many of these things they can find in the middle of the night.

Could be a good use to those taggers talents, IMO.

 

[Carnadero]

http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/18/1846.asp

"Australian camera vendor Redflex will operate every aspect of the program..."

 

Amazing. I would have figured that a British company would get the call. But then again, the Australians aren't all that far behind in the traffic camera department...

[Stir]

I LIKE IT! As a motorcycle rider, I appreciate it when people stop at stop signs and traffic signals. Ask Gleno, I think he would tell you that he thinks stopping at signs and such are a good idea. Only my quick reflexes saved me three times last week as cars ran lights and stop signs on Mira Mesa Blvd. I like the red light cameras. I agree that the camera operator should not get a cut of fines and merely should get paid for the service.

 

I love it when I see a car run a light with no regard for anyone but themselves and I then see the little flash bulb go off.

 

BTW, if you don't come to a complete stop at a stop sign and get your picture taken, who are they going to send that to? For light enforcement, I just never run them on my bike. The cost is just too high in terms of bodily injury to myself if I'm wrong.

[Stir]

So... unlike the usual justification for redlight cameras, they aren't even trying to say these cameras exist in the name of "safety", are they? I mean how many people are killed by a car going gently going 1 mph through a stop sign vs. a 0 mph full stop?

 

It's extremely clear that revenue and revenue only drives this one.

 

.

 

While I agree with the 1 mph vs the 0 mph sentiment, the reality is I see people just taking a look and deciding it is clear and run through at 10 mph. They are trying to save themselve .2 seconds. The problem is, they didn't see me. I had this happen to me just last week. I would love to see a camera on EVERY stop sign and light on Mira Mesa and Miramar roads. They are getting them installed but it isn't fast enough.

 

Mira Mesa Accidents

 

Miramar Accidents

 

I am familiar with a number of motorcyclists who have paid with their lives from red light runners. A year ago, a TA at Mira Mesa High School was late so he went up the curb and ran the light. The motorcycle going through the green didn't have a chance.

 

Everytime one of these rat bastards runs a light or a stop sign, I'd like to see them pay the $271. That happens enough, they may lose thier license and not be able to afford the car.

[wbrissette]

Given that as of this coming Monday, my city (Coppell, TX) will go live with 3 new stop light cameras, I'm going to have to rethink my strategy.

 

If they do go ahead with this program, it will only be in place until 2009.

 

"Another new law, HB 1052, simply requires municipalities to use warning signs at least 100 feet before any intersection that uses a ticket camera. Thanks to SB 1119, those cameras must be removed on September 1, 2009 -- unless the Governor and a majority of the state House of Representatives and Senate agree that red light cameras are useful."

 

I doubt you're going to get people to agree they are useful. Of course TXDOT is planning on it's own speed cameras soon. We'll have to see if they get away with that.

 

Wayne

[flars]

Here in the Tampa area, 'right turn on red after stop' means 'downshift to third gear'. Every day I see people completely blow through the right turn, sometimes without even slowing down, and they often end up in the farthest left lane because they could not possibly have stayed in the curb lane. I had two people move around me to run red lights yesterday. In both instances, the lights were red when they were still 100 feet or more from the intersection. My county went to the expense of putting indicator lights on the traffic lights so the police could tell when the light changed in an effort to cut down on red light runners. It doesn't work.

Red light cameras probably won't last.

And some of us will pay with our lives.

[wbrissette]

The site that is linked in this thread had an article on a study done by the state of VA. Basically they found that the stop light cameras caused more accidents (because people actually stopped and didn't blow through the lights. So the people behind them ended up rear-ending them). I honestly think the general public won't stand for allowing companies that run these cameras to continue to get a revenue stream off every ticket issued.

 

What if you want to contest the ticket? Anybody have any info on that? So let's say you stopped, it took a picture of your car but you really stopped (maybe not for the time limit they want). How do you contest that? Or what if the guy in front of you turns right during the red, you get your plate snapped as the "guilty party" what happens (FYI, there is a movie on one of the websites that shows this happening, so it does in fact happen).

 

Seems that these devices are out more to make money than they are about really correcting driver's behavior (thus improving safety) and saving lives.

 

Wayne

[Carnadero]

My county went to the expense of putting indicator lights on the traffic lights so the police could tell when the light changed in an effort to cut down on red light runners. It doesn't work.

The question is, do they use them? Does the PD set up shop near an intersection with properly outfitted signals and use the indicators to wave people over and issue citations?

[Agent_Orange]

Down here in 'blue hair heaven' they do. There is a clear-white light on the top of the light, and the LEO's use that as reference when observing the intersection.

[Stir]

Speed is obviously tied to it. I would program the things to only register a non stop when the vehicle does not drop below 3 mph. It would have a little recordy gadget that would show the speed through the stop.

[BrianT]

There was a story in the L.A. times today about these stop sign cameras. Apparantly some are already operational, but they are only giving warnings for the first few weeks, as prescribed by law, then they will start sending tickets. They also said that one of the stop sign cameras is portable and will be moved around to different locations. They claim the tickets will not show up on your license, you just get a fine. This is different than the red light tickets that are treated like regular tickets you get from a Police Officer. This is going to be very interesting to see how it plays out in the courts. No mention in the L.A. times article about the speed cameras.

[ESokoloff]

Just to keep things in perspective for those "out of towner's",

this agency ( MRCA) is limited to LESS THEN 50,000 acres & (presumably) the roads that run through them.

[Agent_Orange]

 

 

"We told you Orange County nixed a deal to add red light cameras because of state law. They're trying to do something about the problem though.

 

The County is adding some 700 signs, at a cost of $45,000, explaining to you that red light running violates state law, and cost 180 bucks.

 

"My hope is that these preliminary measures will continue to raise awareness, and act as a deterrent," said Mayor Rich Crotty"

 

Put up signs? Ya, sure that will do the trick. Our tax $ at work.

[Baba_ORiley]

Just to keep things in perspective for those "out of towner's",

this agency ( MRCA) is limited to LESS THEN 50,000 acres & (presumably) the roads that run through them.

 

Okay. But consider this. MRCA is just the vanguard.

 

 

 

 

.

[RFW]

I always thought that a complete stop for a motorcycle required a complete stop - with both feet on the ground.

Had a discussion with a cop on that once. He was starting to write a ticket because he said I didn't put my foot down, so therefore I hadn't stopped.

 

I told him there is no legal requirement to put my foot down; the law only states that I have to come to a full stop, and I had done that with my feet still on the pegs.

 

So he said that this wasn't long enough. I told im that the law stated nothing about how long I had to be stopped for; only (here we go again) that I had to come to a complete stop.

 

Well, that annoyed him. So he said "prove you could do that". And I did.

 

He gave up.

 

By the way, he was on a Harley, so my parting shot was "Better not try it on that thing! You'll need to call for backup to pick it up again!"

 

Having said all that, here in Vancouver, they have installed stop signs at every corner of every residential street. The result is that no one pays any attention to them any more. A city official I was talking to was patting itself on the back claiming how much safer this has made the roads. I told him just how remarkable that is, considering no one pays any attention to them!

[NoLongeraK1200RSRider]

As a youngster I was once ticketed for "not putting my foot down at a stop sign" I demonstrated that I could indeed stop without putting it down.. result? Ticketed anyway.