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Any ideas on what happened to this guy..


Volfan615

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Sure. He fell.

 

Ok, you were hoping for more, I bet. tongue.gif

 

He froze. He didn't downshift prior to the turn. He likely should have double apexed the turn and didn't. He didn't finish his braking early enough. He (and his fellow rider behind him as evidenced by the second video) weren't doing anything to minimize their lean angles. Most elementary (drum roll please), he went exactly where he looked. He pointed that helmet cam right at the pavement and lost his internal gyroscope. A recipe for Feasting on Asphalt.

 

Glad he didn't get hurt. Damned videocams - pure evil those things are.

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Dave McReynolds

Clearly, he didn't know why he went down, and probably didn't learn much from the experience, as much as he would have liked to.

 

All I can tell you is what I would have done differently. One assumption he made is that motorcycles can take curves faster than the posted speed limit. Which is generally true, but proportional; if a curve is posted at 35 mph, I can generally add on 15 mph, a 45 mph curve I might add on 20 mph, a 55 mph curve the sky is the limit, depending on how gutsy I feel that day.

 

However, I find that if a curve is posted at 15 mph, they generally mean it. I know of a particular curve on a favorite motorcycle ride near here that is posted at 10 mph, which may be faster than I can take that curve on a motorcycle. There is something about the manuverability of motorcycles at high speeds and low speeds that is inherently different, although of course if you practice at low speeds, you can no doubt learn to take curves faster.

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John in VA

He says he missed the yellow warning sign? What was he looking at? Anyway he mentions in the video that he can see a switchback is coming up. That said, it appears that the sign shows a 90-degree arrow, when it should show an acute angle switchback arrow. Bad signage, but the biker was just going too fast anyway.

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I was waiting for him to down shift another gear before he got into the turn...we gots plenty o' switchbacks in the hills up here near the control room.

 

Also he was narrarating his way through the turn so I don't think he was fully focused on the task at hand.

 

My guess is he overcooked the turn and relied too much on countersteering and whe he hit the dip, physics took over..

 

He got one thing right though..ATGATT

 

lurker.gif

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Were I to have been in that guy's shoes, I would have went back in a car the next opportunity when motorcyclists can be found there in abundance (probably the next weekend grin.gif ) and parked on the outside of the curve for a spell and carefully watched other motorcyclists navigate that turn, maybe even set up the videocam to record footage to study later.

 

Looking at the location via Google Earth, the downhill aspect is quite pronounced, and a hint of the dip the guy was talking about is evident, however, I can't imagine these attributes being major factors in his mishap, provided he took the turn at somewhere near the prescribed speed.

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My deduction:

 

1. As Jake said, first and foremost, he wasn’t looking at his exit point. As soon as the curve came into view his head (the camera) should have been swivelled all the way round to the farthest point visible into that switchback, at the very least momentarily.

 

2. Coming down the hill towards the curve he missed the warning sign and also generally wasn’t looking at all to his left or right for clues where the road was going; especially effective downhill as you tend to be able to see further as opposed to going uphill or on level ground.

 

3. Adding the previous points up I would also assume he was going too fast for his skill level. Our field of vision tends to narrow as our riding becomes more difficult. It’s a good indicator mostly of riding too fast.

 

Bit of a missed chance that he more or less blames his low side on external factors. I’ve read that when we do not learn from our crash we are more likely to repeat the same type of crash next time.

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Crash may have been technical but, I'm thinking wet. Right side of road as turn begins shows standing water. Then there is always the oil or fluid spot. Course I didn't watch the entire analisis (sp? anal sis) no time.

 

Does make me think though. What about sliders for RT. Crash bars? I'll start the research. Duh! I forgot, I have jugs. Waiting for coffee to perk. Guess I should wait till after coffee to post from now on.

 

He did fair pretty well, bike and rider.

 

 

 

ISYHTRAH

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GoGo Gadget
Crash may have been technical but, I'm thinking wet. Right side of road as turn begins shows standing water. Then there is always the oil or fluid spot. Course I didn't watch the entire analisis (sp? anal sis) no time.

 

Does make me think though. What about sliders for RT. Crash bars? I'll start the research. Duh! I forgot, I have jugs. Waiting for coffee to perk. Guess I should wait till after coffee to post from now on.

 

He did fair pretty well, bike and rider.

 

 

 

ISYHTRAH

 

 

Here is my analysis.

 

Crashanalysis.jpg

 

 

Not really sure if that shiny area is water in the road, but definitely water in the ditch like runoff from the road. The apex is shady and it appears to be early morning, so the road could be dew covered in the shade. I had that happen at Deals Gap one year. Apexed into the shade and the road was wet from dew, front tucked just like this guy.

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He likely should have double apexed the turn and didn't.
Yeah that's my take. He's inside way too early, then to try to make it around he has to really crank it over and for the speed simply runs out of traction. A given the fact that's it's filmed from a helmet cam it's quite clear he didn't look all the way through the switchback as he went into it. Further evidence that he wasn't properly set up for it. It also looks like he had almost no body lean, no movement of himself to the inside of the curve, to maximize the uprightness of the bike and thus maximize its available traction.
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StretchMark

We had some folks run wide on that same turn at our Athens El Paseo. It's a tricky one.

 

He said one thing in the analysis that should raise a flag. He said "Typically I would be scraping my peg through there. I just don't understand why it wasn't scraping". Also when he points out the mirror coming into the frame, he must be pushing the bike underneath him (cross-controlling). Bad corner entry caused too much lean angle, lost the front end, done.

 

I also agree that it sure does appear to be some moisture on the road, but I'm surprised he did not bring that up in the analysis.

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I also agree that it sure does appear to be some moisture on the road, but I'm surprised he did not bring that up in the analysis.

That's another thing I would have done if I was going to bother with some sort of detailed analysis - shoot some footage of the mishap spot from a couple of different angles, and maybe some walk through clips.

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GoGo Gadget
I also agree that it sure does appear to be some moisture on the road, but I'm surprised he did not bring that up in the analysis.

That's another thing I would have done if I was going to bother with some sort of detailed analysis - shoot some footage of the mishap spot from a couple of different angles, and maybe some walk through clips.

 

I think they were in a hurry to get out of there before any authority figures showed up. :D

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Add my vote for slick stuff on the road. "Surface appraisal" was constantly pounded in my head during motor training. Turns and off and on ramps are notorious for spilled stuff falling from cars and trucks. With the ditch next to the inside line of the turn I would guess some car or truck threw some of the moisture on the road. He was going too slow to low side without some loss of friction help.

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As other have noted, I think the surface was less than ideal. Here is my take:

 

1. With the pronounced dip that he describes, you will likely have an accumulation of oil (the type we can often see clearly on an expressway with a dip). This would not be obvious because of the shading.

 

2. Any moisture present from the puddle just off the road would make things worse.

 

3. He just has too much speed for that sharp of a turn.

 

4. He assumes that he can take any turn faster on his cycle than a car could. I used to own a Miata, and there were turns you could take with it at speeds that I would never attempt with a cycle...this one would probaby be one of those.

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Before he enters the turn does he say "Somebody jacked up the switchback."?

 

I'm guessing he saw trouble coming, was riding beyond his skill level at that moment and over compensated.

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Crash may have been technical but, I'm thinking wet. Right side of road as turn begins shows standing water. Then there is always the oil or fluid spot. Course I didn't watch the entire analisis (sp? anal sis) no time.

 

Does make me think though. What about sliders for RT. Crash bars? I'll start the research. Duh! I forgot, I have jugs. Waiting for coffee to perk. Guess I should wait till after coffee to post from now on.

 

He did fair pretty well, bike and rider.

 

 

 

ISYHTRAH

 

 

Here is my analysis.

 

Crashanalysis.jpg

 

 

Not really sure if that shiny area is water in the road, but definitely water in the ditch like runoff from the road. The apex is shady and it appears to be early morning, so the road could be dew covered in the shade. I had that happen at Deals Gap one year. Apexed into the shade and the road was wet from dew, front tucked just like this guy.

 

I new it! clap.gif

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Well, in the first place, he approached the curve all wrong. Instead of approaching on the outside (near the middle of the road), he's in the middle or a little to the right of middle of his lane until he's almost in the curve. Only a few yards out does he swing wide to set up his apex. Along with being in a poor entry position, I think he hadn't scrubbed off enough speed, tapped his front brakes and washed out the front end.

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AdventurePoser

Slow in, fast out. Look where you wanna go. Wear your gear. At least he had one outta three...

 

Steve in So Cal

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I think he was on the brakes all the way up to the crash. That, combined with some moisture on the road, used up his traction and caused the front end to tuck.

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My deduction... Bit of a missed chance that he more or less blames his low side on external factors. I’ve read that when we do not learn from our crash we are more likely to repeat the same type of crash next time.

 

+1

 

When I went down last year the first two thoughts through my head were: was the road wet? and what did I screw up?

 

I realized shortly after that though the road was damp, I was following a more experienced friend on a less-capable bike. I made the dangerous assumption "anything he can do I can do too"... but I couldn't. I was concerned about tractino in the early morning conditions (still a bit wet from the night before) and in addition, I target fixated. I'm still working on my target fixation problem. I learned that day why they say to "ride your ride"... My buddy felt terrible (as if he'd pushed me by going faster than my skills), but it wasn't his fault, it was entirely my own.

 

This guy just seems to want to think he's a great rider so: clearly it was external factors at fault...

 

his approach line, speed, and actions in the video made me think he screwed the pooch on this. As quoted above, he doesn't acknowledge that or accept any fault, so he's not going to learn, wet road or not. crazy.gif

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This guy just seems to want to think he's a great rider so: clearly it was external factors at fault...

 

his approach line, speed, and actions in the video made me think he screwed the pooch on this. As quoted above, he doesn't acknowledge that or accept any fault, so he's not going to learn, wet road or not. crazy.gif

 

I think you nailed it. If you go back and view some of his other videos it's pretty evident that he thinks he knows it all.

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Downhill right switchbacks are arguably the hardest switchbacks to negotiate in right-hand drive countries because the turn is the tightest and most off-camber. $0.02

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GoGo Gadget
his approach line, speed, and actions in the video made me think he screwed the pooch on this. As quoted above, he doesn't acknowledge that or accept any fault, so he's not going to learn, wet road or not. crazy.gif

 

I'll agree with his approach, lane positioning, etc being off, but I think he crashed before that got him. Notice he was not leaned much when he crashed. You don't tuck the front because you are setting up wrong. You tuck it in a reaction having set up wrong, but he did not get that far. He crashed out before the his bad approach to the turn got him into a bad situation. Had the road not been wet and he ran off the outside of the turn because he was set up wrong; or grabbed a handful of brakes in a futile attempt to stay in his lane, then he might be looking at the other factors more. So I am not going to be too hard on his analysis.

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I'm a noob, so I'm commenting from a noob's standpoint...

 

I suppose my position is simply stated: A single vehicle crash is the rider's fault.

 

His "analysis" is more of review of the result and detailed "analysis" of how bad the road condition is... he glosses over his failure to heed the sign warning. He talks (so it seems to me) on and on about how bad the road is and how dangerous a curve it is... yet he failed to moderate his speed or set up a safer line.

 

I'm not looking to argue; I simply watched most of the second video after the crash video. His commentary in the crash video bugged me as much as his (familiar to me) target fixation. I've been there (not that curve on that road) and have to conciously put my attention back on the road ahead when I see anything in the curve (like water, gravel). His statement about "jacked up hairpin" or whatever he called it, and watching him rave about "everyone get frame sliders" just rubbed me the wrong way. Then in the second video it seems he just wants to rationalize the failure as externally created and not his fault.

 

Again, just a noob here with barely 10k on the clock. But, including my own target fixation caused crash last year, I really think ALL single vehicle accidents are operator error; I don't think we saw that in his "analysis". Sure the road was bad, but did he choose a safe line and speed for that condition? confused.gif

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I think this turn looks like it swoops down around the corner, which will alternately uncompress, then recompress the suspension slightly more than a flat turn. The single video frame posted above showing the water on the inside of the turn makes me think there is an extra slight dip there, and the suspension reacted to it causing the lowside. I think his line (being too far inside) just put him into the situation, and he didn't have a chance.

Do not follow this guy through the mountains.

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We just finished a Riding Smart Class on that very road!! That would have been a good clip to show before class!!

 

Alan

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A bend that tight would need to be steered around i.e. the front wheel pointed in the intended direction if the bike was going the correct speed for the line he took. In his analysis he said he counter-steered. He also incorrectly described the road as being off-camber when in fact it is postively cambered (quite severely). If you imagine counter-steering the front wheel left with a road sloping right it doesn't take much to work out your front end is going to let go without much in the way of lean angle (actually I think he was taken down by gyroscopic forces but that may be a touch too deep for this post - by the way if you don't believe me take a push bike and ride at a low speed, lean slightly right and turn the bars slightly left and see how fast you fall off - best tried on grass) . So it probably was speed inasmuch as I think he was bang in the transition zone from a low speed directed turn to a counter-steered turn and the camber did for him. If he had dropped in to the turn camber some lean and with neutral steering he would simply have been swung through the corner. Unlucky, just the wrong input caused by a slight misjudgement on the entry speed and the nasty camber/dip. He shouldn't worry too much

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GoGo Gadget
A bend that tight would need to be steered around i.e. the front wheel pointed in the intended direction if the bike was going the correct speed for the line he took. In his analysis he said he counter-steered. He also incorrectly described the road as being off-camber when in fact it is postively cambered (quite severely). If you imagine counter-steering the front wheel left with a road sloping right it doesn't take much to work out your front end is going to let go without much in the way of lean angle (actually I think he was taken down by gyroscopic forces but that may be a touch too deep for this post - by the way if you don't believe me take a push bike and ride at a low speed, lean slightly right and turn the bars slightly left and see how fast you fall off - best tried on grass) . So it probably was speed inasmuch as I think he was bang in the transition zone from a low speed directed turn to a counter-steered turn and the camber did for him. If he had dropped in to the turn camber some lean and with neutral steering he would simply have been swung through the corner. Unlucky, just the wrong input caused by a slight misjudgement on the entry speed and the nasty camber/dip. He shouldn't worry too much

 

You are not going to use direct steering except for speeds under 5mph or so. He was in 3rd gear according to him, and even if he wasn't, you can tell from the video that he was traveling above a walking pace, so counter steering would be called for. If you are going so slow that counter steering is not called for, you don't low side, you just fall over.

 

So I respectfully disagree. :D

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Oil or water on road theory: He specifically says he examined the road and found no evidence of adverse conditions, oil or gravel. I think we can conclude that no moisture was apparent, although a microscopic layer might be enough. I wouldn't rule this out entirely, but based on his statement, I find it unlikely.

 

Grabbed brake theory: He specifically states he did all of his braking before the turn and did not grab brake in the turn. States he was applying pressure to the right bar, and was about to apply throttle.

 

Not paying attention, not looking right way, not in proper position/setup. I agree with all that, but it doesn't really quite go all the way to why he went down.

 

Too much speed theory, it really doesn't look like it would be too fast from the video under normal circumstances, so it seems something was abnormal. I don't buy too much speed as the cause alone, although I could argue it was a factor.

 

The rider states that he didn't understand why the pegs didn't scrape, and he states that he is applying pressure to the right bar and trying to ride the curve out. Also that he is counter steering (pressing hard right). I am also struck that the bike does not appear to be leaning much at all, consistent with his astonishment at not scraping the pegs.

 

I think these are the key statements and facts that must be explained. Unfortunately I have no explanation.

 

I think Andrew might be on to something, but maybe the opposite. Because if he is really over counter steering, as Andrew hypothesizes, he should be leaning too much. I think maybe he lost concentration for just a second and did try to turn (point) the wheel right. This would mean that instead of pressing, he pulled. He would go down with that little wobble, just as he did.

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GoGo Gadget
Oil or water on road theory: He specifically says he examined the road and found no evidence of adverse conditions, oil or gravel.

 

Did he say that? I am at work and can't get streaming video here. I thought he said he did not see any. As in, on the approach he did not see any. I do not believe they stuck around to examine the road at the time.

 

I know when I crashed at the Gap, it was simply a patch of dew on the road that got me. I was taking it easy and not pushing it at all. But everytime I went into the shade, I felt the tires push.

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Quote:

Oil or water on road theory: He specifically says he examined the road and found no evidence of adverse conditions, oil or gravel.

 

 

 

Did he say that? I am at work and can't get streaming video here. I thought he said he did not see any. As in, on the approach he did not see any. I do not believe they stuck around to examine the road at the time.

 

I know when I crashed at the Gap, it was simply a patch of dew on the road that got me. I was taking it easy and not pushing it at all. But everytime I went into the shade, I felt the tires push.

 

In the second, analysis, video at

 

3:07 Dark spot is shady, looked at road w/buddies, no grease or rocks. (I'm assuming then this rules out visible water too)

 

5:33 Footpegs not scraping

 

8:35 One of these jacked-up switchback turns (repeat from original vid)

 

9:15 Braking before turn, no brake in turn; in 3rd gear

 

9:30 About to get back on throttle.

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You are not going to use direct steering except for speeds under 5mph or so. He was in 3rd gear according to him, and even if he wasn't, you can tell from the video that he was traveling above a walking pace, so counter steering would be called for. If you are going so slow that counter steering is not called for, you don't low side, you just fall over.So I respectfully disagree. :D

 

You may well be right, but I kept replaying the video and wondering what I would be doing on the entry to that bend and it looks very slow to me, particularly with the line he took which was roughly left centre of the lane. If you watch carefully he brakes quite hard on the approach

 

Also when he went down the bike didn't seem to slide very far at all and him even less so I am not convinced he was going very fast at all. So if we put aside what the correct steering input was, I think he appoached the corner and slowed way more than he thought and put in way too much counter steer and basically fell off. Anyone out there clever enough to work out the speed of th ebike when it fell?

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My take is to fast into the turn for the line he chose . He stated he was just about to apply throttle which tells me he was still under engine braking and weight was still on the front tire .When he hit the dip newtons law came into effect the front tire left the road enough for it to push through and understeer. Had he been on the throttle already the power would have pulled the front tire through the turn and should have made it . Of coarse when the back tire hit the dip if he had too much throttle he may have gotten a little wiggle from the back but also should have been controlled . Dave

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