video of poor cornering technique

[xoomerite]

I recall the term cross-controlling being used at RideSmart. It seems to me that this video shows that clearly.

 

[Quinn]

Sure was a long one-way street they were on.

[Stormrider]

ZZZzzz....sorry, the piano music almost put me to sleep.

[ghaverkamp]

Sure was a long one-way street they were on.

 

That wasn't a one-way street, though I'm not sure if it was all Kings Ridge Road, either. I'm assuming, of course, that it's the Kings Ridge Road I know and love. Large chunks of the video looked to me to be from Fort Ross Road... But I could be wrong; it's been a long time since I've made it up there.

 

Some of the "fun" of those roads is trying to see the cars lurking around the next blind corner.

[Tony_K]

I'm assuming, of course, that it's the Kings Ridge Road I know and love. Large chunks of the video looked to me to be from Fort Ross Road

 

True but I thought Ft Ross was more tree dense.

I know that when I took the RT up last summer I could not get above 2nd gear on any portion of Ft. Ross. I'm kind of thankful for that.

It's scary fun.

 

I only did a tiny portion of Kings as I really didn't know where I was going!Mostly north...

Just follow the sun young man it will take you west to the ocean and PCH!

[ghaverkamp]

True but I thought Ft Ross was more tree dense.

I know that when I took the RT up last summer I could not get above 2nd gear on any portion of Ft. Ross. I'm kind of thankful for that.

It's scary fun.

 

It is. And it dead-ends right into Kings Ridge Road. Some of the tree-dense portions looked a lot more like Fort Ross Rd. than the limited tree-dense portions of Kings Ridge Rd.

 

My typical path north would be Ft. Ross to Kings Ridge to Tin Barn to Stewarts Point-Skagg Springs to Annapolis back to Hwy 1 on north.

 

They're clearly not for everyone, and I'm not sure that I'd intentionally try to throw my rear end around on some of those roads (which is what's suggested in some of the YouTube comments.) I took a couple of friends on those roads once, and they chose not to go riding with me again. Other have enjoyed them as much as I have. Unfortunately, my camcorder remote malfunctioned the last time, and I lost all of my video of them.

[Tony_K]

Yup. Up from Cazadero same way but after FRR and KRR I don't know where the hell I am so I just wing it!

 

I don't recall the name of the road that goes up from PCH to Cazadero but the part from the ocean to KRR is sick sick SICK. It's got crazy elevation and it's nutty as a roller coaster!

[russell_bynum]

Fantastic road.

 

I can't believe those two tools made it that far before their bikes finally had enough and spit them off.

 

Imagine if you could take that fearlessness and apply some skills and talent.

[BUMWA]

The Beethoven Sonata was wasted on those bozos. If they knew what they were doing, Schubert's "Trout" quintet would be perfect.

[Todd_Z1]

Something does not appear right about this video? ? ?

 

Cheers!

[Green RT]

To return to the point of the original poster... The rider seemed to have an asymmetrical riding style. He counter steered strongly in left turns. In right turns he still was counter steering, but it was a little less extreme.

[Boffin]

To return to the point of the original poster... The rider seemed to have an asymmetrical riding style. He counter steered strongly in left turns. In right turns he still was counter steering, but it was a little less extreme.

 

Sorry, I think you have your terms mixed up. Counter-steering is good technique when you apply pressure to the bars to turn them in the opposite direction of the turn you want to make - ie turn a little left and the bike goes right. What the divot in the video was doing was cross-controlling. In effect the bike was leaning left and he was countering that lean by staying upright, meaning the bike needed to be leaned MUCH further than would be necessary if he just kept in-line with the bike, leave alone if he used 'riding smart' techniques. The upshot of this is that the bike runs out of both ground clearance and grip at much lower speeds than it should. Add to that the fact that the lines used in the video were awful I am surprised that the riders have lived long enough to film it.

 

Andy

[Green RT]

Sorry, I think you have your terms mixed up.

Just a miscommunication between my brain and my fingers. I meant "cross controlling", not "counter steering".

[Endobob]

Add to that the fact that the lines used in the video were awful I am surprised that the riders have lived long enough to film it.

 

Andy

 

Amen! Not much more to learn from this video.

[leikam]

Sad thing is that when the rider in front shows off his tires and scuffed hard parts to his friends, they'll oh and ah in admiration of how "fast" he is. And the guy on the camera bike, lacking both the sense and skill to avoid putting himself behind somebody like that, will no doubt write off dumping his bike as "unavoidable." I'm sure they thought they were riding pretty well.

[ghaverkamp]

Sad thing is that when the rider in front shows off his tires and scuffed hard parts to his friends, they'll oh and ah in admiration of how "fast" he is. And the guy on the camera bike, lacking both the sense and skill to avoid putting himself behind somebody like that, will no doubt write off dumping his bike as "unavoidable." I'm sure they thought they were riding pretty well.

 

Read the comments on the video. The taping rider suggests that the style was intentional, that the goal was to ride with a loose rear. In effect, he's saying that the rider was riding precisely as planned, which can probably be considered "well."

 

Whether or not there's any sense in that is a different question entirely.

[leikam]

Yeah, I saw the comments. The things speaking against that interpretation were the video's title, the description of it as a casual ride and the fact that he dumped it at the end. Saying after the fact that the bad form was intentional and that we know nothing about the filmer smacks of an attempt to deflect criticism.

 

Still, it is an edited video; none of us were there to see what really happened so maybe he's right. And maybe every squid I've seen with apparent bad form was doing it on purpose. And perhaps every sportbike rider seeing this will know what to emulate and what to avoid.

[Redbrick]

Sure was a long one-way street they were on.

 

WARNING:...Not for use by MRE instructors.....

 

Most corners blind and a very dangerous risk ...Me no sabe?

 

Phil..........Redbrick

[Ken H.]

I recall the term cross-controlling being used at RideSmart. It seems to me that this video shows that clearly.

Yes, exactly. Very poor form. The road they are on is not particularly aggressive, but watch how little lean clearance he has remaining on the inside of each turn. Early on, at about 1:21 or so he actually touches down and fish tails for a moment well beyond the exit point of the curve because he didn't even bring the bike back up. And his lines are generally poor to boot. This guy is basically living on the luck of his tires.

 

Overall an excellent example of how not to ride a motorcycle well. Thanks!

[steve.foote]

I think the whole film would have looked more natural if the rider had been wearing a T-shirt and cutoffs.

 

The tree in the last frame looked, uh, painful.

[AdventurePoser]

I recall the term cross-controlling being used at RideSmart. It seems to me that this video shows that clearly.

 

 

Good thing that was a one way road, with no chance a vehicle could have been coming his way...

 

Steve

[Tony_K]

Steve. Those are not one way roads. IT'S TWO WAYS!

 

BTDT Nor Cal

[ESokoloff]

Up in the Santa Monica's there is a one way road that is a bit odd to travel on.

I find that I still look for opposing traffic..... not a bad thing really.

[philbytx]

It shows clearly a rider as "two" with his bike

[ncsonderman]

Sad thing is that when the rider in front shows off his tires and scuffed hard parts to his friends, they'll oh and ah in admiration of how "fast" he is. And the guy on the camera bike, lacking both the sense and skill to avoid putting himself behind somebody like that, will no doubt write off dumping his bike as "unavoidable." I'm sure they thought they were riding pretty well.

 

I'm sure that ignorance is bliss for these guys!

 

I noticed the lead rider nearly loose the rear end a number of times including once while accelerating out of a corner. I've always tended to slow down for a while and possibly stop to collect myself following those pucker up moments! This guy was unaware how close he was coming to dropping off the edge of the hill

[Paul De]

Cleary he was cross controlling in a number of the turns. I did see moments where the rider approached a more classical road riding form, with his torso to the inside of the machine's centerline. He appears to someone whose riding experience comes from dirt riding and he was applying this style fairly smoothly.

 

I think the road condition was very poor with lots of rough and patched asphalt, Also, there was plenty of sand and grit in the turns and it appears that the rider was hedging his bet by adopting a dirt riding style in anticipation of the tires not holding. The video quality was poor enough I couldn't see if the front end pushing, but there were many instances where you can see a puff come off the rear tire as it broke loose going over loose grit. This counter controlling body position will keep the CG of rider/machine over the top of the bike; whereas, fully committing your body to the inside of the bike as you would on a paved track would guarantee at least a low side get off on the loose stuff he was hitting in most of the apexes. Notice how Camera Boy bit it? He was pushing up on the leader in a number of instances and the cross controlling rider was purposely not pushing his front end into the apex that hard, followed by a clear comfort with the rear breaking loose and dancing about as he accelerated out of the apex in a classic dirt rider style. Maybe, there is something possitive to learn here. Imperfect, gritty surfaces do not favor a pure road race form to stay up on two wheels. Sure, slowing down will help keep you upright as your tires and suspension aren't near their limit and you have the ability to take a line that avoids the grit, but these guys were clearly familiar with the road and wanted to blast it and Cross Controlling rider didn't crash. Why? I think there was more than luck involved here. Anyway, aside from riding super fast into blind turns, I would like to see Cross Controlling rider on short track oval before passing judgment that he is a total squid!

 

As for me, this seems to be a great road to ride at a more moderate pace given the limited visibility ahead and the crappy surface.

[George Brown]

I think it would be great if a couple of folks who know the road could film a similar ride using "ride smart" techniques. Should be able to cover the same stretch within the same 9:27min and illustrate a smoother safer ride.

[K^2]

I'm with Paul on this one. The rider being filmed didn't bother slowing down after any of the 3 or 4 ass-end squiggles most likely because he's done it many times before on dirt. No panic attack. He was cross-controlling so consistently that it definitely appeared intentional. There are roads and road conditions where this is exactly the right way to go. I suppose we'd have to ask him to know for sure.

 

OTOH it definitely hurts a bit more if you biff it on pavement (DAMHIK). Personally, I'd have dropped the velocity down a little, but I remember being young and impetuous once ...

 

K^2

[Rags]

Does anyone on this thread ride dirt or had ridden dirt?

 

That style is classic dirt tactic, many avoidance issues require a looser "joint" between rider & bike. Similar to lane splitting, one can't orient themselves to high speed sweep position, it takes too long (and there is no centrifugal force too counter)

 

That road looked pretty dirty (reduced traction=less speed), I'm thinking keeping the center of gravity over the wheels was the best way to ride it.

 

just my .02

[DouglasR]

The vast majority of my lifetime riding experience (44 years and counting) has been in the dirt: motocross, flat track, enduros, trials, stupid high speed cross-country stuff, you name it. I think there is some validity to the "dirt riding style" argument here, that really is the way to deal with poor traction conditions. But the simple fact is they were on narrow, rotten asphalt with the potential for other traffic, blind turns, completely unpredictable traction, etc. and riding bikes that are not meant to be used like that. I believe in using the right tool for the right job. Within one minute of the video I was waiting for the riders to "become one" with a tree, pole or embankment. That might be a fun ride and even a sport bike would be enjoyable but those guys were riding way too fast for the conditions and pushing the limits in all directions. I felt it was only a matter of time before the laws of physics caught up with them.

 

I call that irresponsible style of rider a "Squid" even though he may show some good form and technique because he has reduced his safety margin to zero by riding like he does. He will eventually get caught by his technique and schooled, hopefully not fatally. What really pisses me off about this kind of thing is that these riders have put anyone else on that road at extreme risk because of their lousy habits.

[Ken H.]

Does anyone on this thread ride dirt or had ridden dirt?

 

That style is classic dirt tactic, many avoidance issues require a looser "joint" between rider & bike. Similar to lane splitting, one can't orient themselves to high speed sweep position, it takes too long (and there is no centrifugal force too counter)

 

That road looked pretty dirty (reduced traction=less speed), I'm thinking keeping the center of gravity over the wheels was the best way to ride it.

 

just my .02

Sorry, I'm not buying it for a second. They weren't in dirt where you're internally trying to move the rear around. They where pushing the bike under them for lack of knowing any better IMHO. And consuming vastly more available traction in the process than had they rode to keep the bike more upright. And their almost complete lack of an acceptable line further evidenced they don't have a clue.

 

I feel for them as with that kind of an invincible attitude coupled with really poor skills, it's only a matter of time. As one of them has already discovered.

[Redbrick]

Does anyone on this thread ride dirt or had ridden dirt?

 

That style is classic dirt tactic, many avoidance issues require a looser "joint" between rider & bike. Similar to lane splitting, one can't orient themselves to high speed sweep position, it takes too long (and there is no centrifugal force too counter)

 

That road looked pretty dirty (reduced traction=less speed), I'm thinking keeping the center of gravity over the wheels was the best way to ride it.

 

just my .02

 

Style looks familiar to me but then it's been a long time since dirt bike days and I never rode with guy's apparently so empty between the ears.....

 

Phil........Redbrick

[Paul De]

I certainly share the view that Ken and Douglas have about the squidly thought process of running those velocities on a beat and dirt strewn road that is substantially too narrow, too view restricted to go on a WFO ride.

 

I part with Ken a little bit on the rider not knowing any better. The cross controlling rider, did on a few dirt free turns display a more typical paved surface style. He did not seem to me to be oblivious to a paved surface performance riding style. Also, in the video I saw the rider set up for a number of turns anticipating them to have loose dirt with low traction. Yes, I agree he was trading maximum traction and ground clearance for this body position, but the tires tack to the street was not the limiting factor, it was the grit in the road. At the speed the cross controlling rider was going and the machine he was it provided him the additional ground clearance to trade-off to maintain his balance on the loose spots.

 

It is hard to comment about unacceptable line choice as the video did not have enough resolution for me to be able to see the best line for the road conditions. From what I could make out on the video, the road was a completely covered with hacked up, patched up, gritted up sections with little good road anywhere in the run, so the best line to stay up on two wheels is not likely the best line if they were riding on a surface in better shape. Also, the last thing I would think cross controlling rider would do is choose a line taking him into the real dirty portions of the lane regardless of how correct that line might be. He was likely picking his line based on cleanest path while at the same time avoiding the pot holes. Essentially, the line he is on would have been created by automobile traffic and I would say it is a safe bet that the car traffic was not "setting a groove" that is anywhere near the prime line for go fast driving.

 

As for me, this would not be my first choice of road to go on a WFO ride. For me a sedate cruise would seem more appropriate. All I ask is that the folks that live in the area call me when the county lays down some fresh asphalt……..I’ll be there ready to give my best on that little twisty path. I'll even take “constructive criticism” for my imperfect style because that would mean I'm in front of you , or at least the guy with the camera

[TyTass]

A question about this discussion from the FAR less experienced ...

 

Was it appropriate for the rider to have brake lights on as far into many of the turns as he often did considering:

 

1) Any perceived dirt riding style?

2) Classic road riding style?

 

Or were the brake lights actually on and not just momentary flashes of sunlight?

[E30TECH]

A question about this discussion from the FAR less experienced ...

 

+1

 

What made the rider go down in the end? I didn't see anything in the road.

[Ken H.]

Was it appropriate for the rider to have brake lights on as far into many of the turns as he often did

In this particular example of riding I just chalked it off to one more clue that these guys don’t have a clue. Others seem more inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt.

 

But you your question in general, brake lights late into a corner in itself is neither an indicator of good or poor riding skill. Some riders pride themselves on never touching the brakes. But that is either using a lot of sudden engine braking that can disrupt the chassis late when one should have already begun to stabilize it with (usually) neutral throttle. Or they are slowing/coasting down to the proper entry speed far earlier than they would necessarily have to. Thus making themselves slower overall in either case.

 

Often, especially when talking of squid liked un-trained riders, it is simply an indication that they are over cooking into the corner then trying to salvage it at the last minute with a lot of brakes. Also unsettling and ultimately slower.

 

OTOH, brake lights past the entry point can be a skilled rider using a combination of brakes and throttle to set up the chassis for a smooth transition to neutral, and even past the apex and the beginnings of powering up as the exit becomes visible.

 

So, in this video it could mean they really were on top of their game. But I wouldn’t be the one to say that. As the crash at the end tends to support IMHO!

[tobyzusa]

 

What made the rider go down in the end? I didn't see anything in the road.

 

A gravity storm.....

[Peter W]

Up in the Santa Monica's there is a one way road that is a bit odd to travel on.

 

Tuna Canyon road? Very cool, but tight and slow. Still I like it.

 

Peter

[russell_bynum]

Up in the Santa Monica's there is a one way road that is a bit odd to travel on.

 

Tuna Canyon road? Very cool, but tight and slow. Still I like it.

 

Peter

 

One of my favorites.

 

That, and Decker Canyon.

[ESokoloff]

Up in the Santa Monica's there is a one way road that is a bit odd to travel on.

 

Tuna Canyon road? Very cool, but tight and slow. Still I like it.

 

Peter

SLOW

I must be doing something wrong

[ESokoloff]

 

Tuna Canyon road?

 

One of my favorites.

 

That, and Decker Canyon.

 

And Stunt,

and Piuma,

and Westlake,

and Latago,

and Little Sycamore,

and Mulholland,

and Potrero,

and...............

[Ken H.]

And Stunt,

and Piuma,

and Westlake,

and Latago,

and Little Sycamore,

and Mulholland,

and Potrero,

and...............

You guys are killing me! It's been so long since I've see a curve, I've forgotten what one feels like!

[TyTass]

You guys are killing me! It's been so long since I've see a curve, I've forgotten what one feels like!

They're killing me, too! We just had snow for Easter weekend! And this weekend looks to be cold rain. Global Warming my ass!

[ESokoloff]

Don't be too envious.

After all, we are overdue for another mountain builder.......

What's's's's sssssshaking bbbbbaby!!!!!!

 

Now to further hijack this almost dead thread.......

I wish I had taken a picture of Dave (dhb) upon completion of this road (Tuna Canyon) his 1st time down it.

His ear to ear grin completely filled his face shield

 

Now to bring us back on track....

The turns on Tuna Canyon road are sharp and often.

In order to ride fast the bike must transition quickly.

Cross controlling allows quicker turn to turn transitions and may be useful on some sections of this road.

[David]

Cross controlling allows quicker turn to turn transitions and may be useful on some sections of this road.

 

You're losing me here. First, I don't understand, as a probably executed shift without cross-controlling is very, very fast. Lightning fast. Second, because even if it wasn't as fast, it's a whole lot safer.

[AviP]

You guys are killing me! It's been so long since I've see a curve, I've forgotten what one feels like!

They're killing me, too! We just had snow for Easter weekend! And this weekend looks to be cold rain. Global Warming my ass!

All the snow we're losing in the poles has gotta go somewhere now, doesn't it?

 

While this video is a classic example of bad cornering style, it's also a classic example of the "buddy-on-my-ass" syndrome. Note how the camera bike keeps catching up to the lead bike and goes wide many times. I'm sure this stimulated some adrenalin up front for late braking and increased their risk. Someone was trying to prove something.

[Rags]

Cross controlling allows quicker turn to turn transitions and may be useful on some sections of this road.

 

You're losing me here. First, I don't understand, as a probably executed shift without cross-controlling is very, very fast. Lightning fast. Second, because even if it wasn't as fast, it's a whole lot safer.

 

Watch the bouncing ball.... "turn to turn"

 

what does shifting have to do with that? nothing really

 

If you want faster turns you stand on the pegs...

 

Yes, some retards take their road bikes on dirt

[Ken H.]

what does shifting have to do with that? nothing really

I believe David is referring to shifting your body weight back and forth, as a part of keeping the bike more upright, not to shifting gears.

[David]

Cross controlling allows quicker turn to turn transitions and may be useful on some sections of this road.

 

You're losing me here. First, I don't understand, as a probably executed shift without cross-controlling is very, very fast. Lightning fast. Second, because even if it wasn't as fast, it's a whole lot safer.

 

Watch the bouncing ball.... "turn to turn"

 

what does shifting have to do with that? nothing really

 

If you want faster turns you stand on the pegs...

 

Yes, some retards take their road bikes on dirt

 

Ken is right--I was talking about body shifting.

 

And using the pegs to turn a street bike? That's nonsense. The easiest way to turn a street bike is with the handlebars above walking speed. People who think they are turning it with the pegs are unwittingly turning it with the handlebars. To try this, go along at 40 mph (about the speed of the video, to be conservative), and in a straight line grasp the sides of the tank with your hands. Then extend your legs so that your butt is off the seat and try to steer the bike with the pegs. Just make sure you aren't pointed at something you need to avoid!

[Rags]

I should have been clearer ... sorry. I was referring to rutted dirt ( I went off on a tangent). Butt in seat = slow reaction to next off center bump.

 

I agree with your comment for "on road" riding 100%