Ice on a curve

[JayW]

We had our first real snow in West TN late last week. It is still cold (for here), but the roads cleared up over the weekend and I was anxious to get my "fix". With Gerbing's and proper gear I was enjoying my favorite twisty road, and found myself facing a strip of ice in the middle of my lane while rounding a right curve. It was in a shady area that apparently had not been warmed by the sun. I was taking it easy, and was able to adjust my line to steer around the patch. The hardest part was not "target fixating" on the ice, but intead forcing myself to look where I wanted to go.

 

The rest of the way home, I pondered what would have been the best approach if there had been no clear path through the ice. It would seem a bad idea to waste precious traction by braking, but what about beyond that given?

 

Here are the options:

1. Maintain the same cornering line, but roll off the throttle a bit.

2. Maintain the same cornering line and keep the throttle steady.

3. Quickly but smoothly adjust body position so that the bike is leaned over less, ie, move the head even more toward the right mirror, swing that knee out as much as possible, and move the butt more off the edge of the seat.

4. Stand the bike up and ride through the ice without turning at all (or very little) at the risk of crossing the center line.

5. Beat myself in the head with hammer for riding in weather where this could happen.

 

Any comments or other suggestions?

 

Jay

[Paul De]

#5 because of option #6

 

#6 Go from the ranks of those who will go down, to the ranks of those who have gone down.

 

Ice on pavement gives near zero traction and unless you can clear the ice patch to something solid, while being centered up on your tires, you'll be going down faster than you can say Oh, Crap! If you don't go down going over the ice patch you might make it to the gravel shoulder where you will have some traction, but you had better be in good shape to deal with loose gravel and little room before you go for an unplanned offroad adventure.

 

There's a reason motorcycle ice racers run tires with several hundred studs per tire.....Rubber dosn't stick to ice!!!

[Volfan615]

I haven't had that happen to me on the bike but have seen that too many times around here while driving the cage. I just assume now that those shady areas my have some ice on them even after most of the roads are completly dry.

[FlyingFinn]

Well, there's ice and then there's ice. But on a big bike like an RT, if you hit any kind of ice in the middle of a corner you're going down.

 

In a really cold weather (say -20C and below) if the ice has been roughened up by studded tires (by other cars) the traction can be actually quite good.

Then there's the shiny smooth surface ice at near zero temperature. Now that stuff provides basically zero friction, even standing up on that kind of surface can be hard.

 

--

Mikko

[Couchrocket]

Stand it straight up, clutch in, coast across w/ no inputs, no brakes, no power, no nothing. And it is still extremely likely you'll end up on your butt sliding down the street.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

4. Stand the bike up and ride through the ice without turning at all (or very little) at the risk of crossing the center line.

 

That's about all you can do; use whatever road/margin you have available to minimize your traction requirements.

 

El Paseo, spring '05, a Saturday night cold snap left frozen rain everywhere. Sunday morning Chris Long and I were headed north on US129. The road seemed to be in good shape, until we came to a curving bridge across a lake/river. There were intermittent patches of ice on the bridge deck. I had to make the turn: there wasn't any shoulder to speak of, and if I ran wide I'd hit the low railing and go over into the water 20 feet down. Thankfully there was enough clear pavement between the ice patches that Chris and I made it through, but I felt the bike losing and regaining traction repeatedly through the whole turn.

[Lineareagle]

Well certainly #5 obviates any other results except enhancing good judgement.

#4 I recently experienced in the fall here. It was on a downhill right curve after coming out of a compound left curve. My visual clue as to the condition of the road was a cage in the ditch and a police cruiser off to the side in a driveway.

Fortunately I could see no on coming traffic. Straightened right up with 'no nuthin' and went straight at the shoulder just down hill of the cage, I didn't want to bisect the cage, as soon as I had any traction I leaned in, rode the shoulder and eventually was back on the roadway.

I wonder what the officer thought besides SSOB!

 

I know thats what I was thinking.

 

Shady corners are not a good thing in fall or spring.

[Ken H.]

1 & 2 are definitely out, either is going cause a loss of what little traction you may have left.

 

With 3, if the traction gods are smiling on you might sneak by, but about then is a bad time to be doing a bunch of moving around on the bike upsetting it even more.

 

So I have to agree with the others - Stand the bike up, pull in the clutch, stay off the brakes and coast your way through it. Then if there's still room left somewhere forcibly lean the thing over and try to save the turn.

[AviP]

... I pondered what would have been the best approach if there had been no clear path through the ice.

I used to ride my ZX11 in the snow and ice and while it used to start out as fun, by the time I got to my destination some 10 miles away, I would be cursing myself for my stupidity. The Sumner tunnel toll booth operator in Boston even let me off without paying my tolls because he thought I was nuts. And he was right! Somehow I never dropped it and yes I've had 90 degree ice slides from 30 mph to a stop around curves. So I might have be qualified to answer.

 

Leaning the bike will definitely cause a slide. So that means the bike should be as straight as possible. Whether that means you cross the center line, depends on the traffic situation. Don't hang out the side because it will only upset the bike further if the icy stretch is long and you need to center your body.

 

Braking the bike will most likely cause a slide. A steadily reducing throttle worked for me. In really bad snow and ice, I would stay in a lower gear with a much higher rpm band. This would give me more engine braking and consequently less instability than regular braking.

 

I disagree with the clutch in because you lose all engine braking and a low side might be inevitable. The primary objective when encountering a long icy patch that cannot be bypassed safely is stopping. Clutch in will increase the stopping distance. Engine braking will reduce it. It worked for me. YMMV.

 

And to reiterate, this method depends on snow and ice awareness and consequently riding in a much lower gear (and higher rpm band) than normal.

[Bill_Walker]

So I have to agree with the others - Stand the bike up, pull in the clutch, stay off the brakes and coast your way through it. Then if there's still room left somewhere forcibly lean the thing over and try to save the turn.

 

And don't forget to consider the possibility of turning hard early before you get to the ice, if you recognize it in time. In other words, try and get the bike turned so that you can then straighten it up and coast through the ice and still remain on the road, preferably in your lane, or at least leave yourself with a smaller correction to make after you cross the ice. Assuming, of course, that you've left yourself enough margin to be able to tighten up your turn a bunch.

 

Sequence something like:

1) Turn in

2) See ice.

3) Turn hard, aiming to get aimed on a straight line to the far side of the ice.

4) Stand it up, coast across the ice as described above.

5) If necessary, apply a further correction on the far side of the ice.

 

I also use this technique for any hazard-to-traction on the road (water, sand, oil, cattle guards, steel plates, paint).

[dhb]

While I try to avoid ice on the road, living up here means it just might happen and has.

I think the low gear/high RPM technique would serve to break the rear wheel loose more than the opposite of higher gear--(even lugging) which smoothes out the throttle response some. Pulling in the clutch would make it harder for me to get through ice, as I like to maintain a bit of throttle throughout. It should be obvious not to make any abrupt steering or throttle changes, but steering for the center on right handers or the shoulder on left handers can sometimes provide you with a bit more "grit" than you'll find in the wheel tracks as well as opening up the curve a bit. I think leaning off with the effect of straightening the bike has helped me in icy curves.

 

Two weeks ago, Eric and I hit some bad frost on shady corners near Santa Margarita--it's surprising how much the bike can move around and still keep it up. In retrospect, there were some subtle changes to the road surface (lighter color--frosty!) that presaged the ice/frost. We were lucky.

In terms of dropping the bike--don't try to stop on ice. I think keeping it up on an icy surface stopped is harder than if it's rolling.

Good luck,

Dave

[JayW]

In a really cold weather (say -20C and below) if the ice has been roughened up by studded tires (by other cars) the traction can be actually quite good.

 

If this is the case, then what about option 1 vs 2? The reflex response is usually to snap off the throttle, which must be avoided at all costs. It has now occurred to me that rolling off the throttle even slightly will change the cornering line (I believe it tightens the curve), so option 1 would be near-impossible to actually execute. However, is it still beneficial to slow slightly on semi-traction surface curves, or are the odds best if you keep the throttle steady?

 

Jay

[dhb]

In my experience, it's not usually possible to slow significantly when coming upon unexpected ice--but if you can the best way would be to roll off the throlle smoothly and use engine braking. If you're in a higher than normal gear when this happens, I believe it can smooth out the throttle changes some and reduce the chance of rear wheel slide. This may be may good strategy for you to try if riding in ice prone areas (high gear). As I said, I'm no expert on this and try to avoid ice whenever I can.

Dave

[Bill_Walker]

In my experience, it's not usually possible to slow significantly when coming upon unexpected ice--but if you can the best way would be to roll off the throlle smoothly and use engine braking. If you're in a higher than normal gear when this happens, I believe it can smooth out the throttle changes some and reduce the chance of rear wheel slide. This may be may good strategy for you to try if riding in ice prone areas (high gear). As I said, I'm no expert on this and try to avoid ice whenever I can.

Dave

 

I can't say I've tried it on ice, but in my personal experience (last year in DV with Philly), engine braking on snow results in a loss of traction. Luckily I realized what was happening and pulled in the clutch, which immediately stopped the fishtailing I was experiencing. I stand by my recommendation of coasting across the ice, or at least maintaining your current throttle setting.

[dhb]

I have no particular concern about pulling in the clutch on relatively straight ice, but feel you were lucky to get through an icy curve with that technique. Reduction of speed is a problem on an icy curve and any technique to do so can cause problems. For curvy icy roads, getting out of the wheel tracks, gently reducing speed through engine braking and high gear, and keeping the bike as upright as possible throughout is my best recipe FWIW.

Dave

[wellcraft]

i don't ride anytime the temp falls below 40 degrees because of the threat of ice. i've hit black ice in my car and eventhough on that particular day i was on the look out for black ice i never saw it and only after the truck started sliding did i know i was on it.

[BWS]

Havn't ridden on much ice this year cause mainly its been so nice.But have mucho exp. in years past.Bike:'00 KRS all ergos in full sporting mode.No RR ABS,yadayada.....Agree that you want to be in a much higher cog,to the point that you are just chuggin along.No engine braking and practically no get up.You have to slow way down 'cause brakes are a big no-no.If going this slow makes you a road hazard to other traffic then you shouldn't be riding.We live in the mnts and as such it can be bright and cheery on Southern side and treacherous beyond description on the Northern slopes.Thinking ahead,expecting there to be ice is a skill you must pocess.Its like the old excuse for binning a bike,"went in too hot".Well its precisely the same,only more so.You simply can't shed speed fast enough,therefore you have to maintain a much lower speed to begin with.One thing you may try(not in a curve)is slightly draging rr brake.It acts like the feathers on an arrow keeping you somewhat pointed in the right direction.Its all very risky and theres probably better ways to get you biking thrills,go ride a dirtbike in the snow or?Best of luck,BW

[JayW]

I appreciate all the comments and counsel. I am going to continue to try to avoid ice entirely, but there are other situations where traction can suddenly be compromised in a curve (sand, oil, wet leaves or diesel fuel on road), so thinking through the process of how to handle such situations before they occur is a worthwhile exercise.

 

Jay

[pmdave]

I decided to attend this year's Snow Camp, which was along Hood Canal on the Olympic Peninsula of WA state. The weather in early January had been cold, with a bit of snow around, and lots of ice. So--no brainer--I swapped the R100/Ural sidecar rig to the wheels with the knobby tires, and headed out.

 

Did I slip and slide around? Yep. Did I fall down. Nope.

 

So, if you really want to keep riding during sub-freezing periods, get a hack.

pmdave

[AndyT]

One winter when 16 and my only wheels were a Honda 350 and I worked after school, I hit ice in a curve (didn't even see it) and went down in a blink, both me and the bike skidding at different trajectories! Me and the bike both got roughed up a bit! Did it again a few times on a dirt bike the next winter and finally gave up riding when ice was possible. Although I have been out when refreezing in cold spots happens and get the mental shivers. Even staying bolt upright can be near impossible on two wheels on ice. I would like to ride more in colder weather but try not to take the risk!

[Hoover]

In a really cold weather (say -20C and below) if the ice has been roughened up by studded tires (by other cars) the traction can be actually quite good.

 

Not to hijack, but....-20C...holy crap that is like 4 degrees fahrenheit! Seriously, what kind of cold weather gear do you fellas ride in? I need to look into that from my iron butt ride I want to pull off in the spring (Colorado will still be chilly in the AM).

 

My rule, when I had the RT was 29 in morning when I was leaving and lots of sunshine I would ride, otherwise I took the cage. Now with the S, my rule has come up to 40 in the morning, not near the wind protection of the RT.

 

As for the initial question in this thread, I agree with getting your weight on the pegs, but I am not so sure about what pulling in the clutch as someone suggested. I read Hough's "Proficient Motorcycling" book and it covers this. I have been caught on ice in the same sitation on mountain roads in the spring, and have always used his advice of just put the weight on the pegs and get through it nice and easy. Never went down doing that, but I am not sure it was not just dumb luck.