MSF Courses

[jssgranite]

This one is for Woodie (and is probably more info than he requested)...

 

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I've been reading, been reviewing lots of threads here, and have been practicing techniques I've learned from reading and from my MSF courses I took previously.

 

 

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Given the number of recent threads on fatalities, and rider education (see here )

I'd be interested to hear why you (an existing rider) apparently chose to take an MSF course around the time you bought a BMW. Could you post over there?

 

Thanks!

 

Divorced June 2005. Leading up to that time, I developed a hankerin to get a motorcycle (not allowed during marriage). I had an interest in HDs and signed up for the Rider's Edge (the basic MSF) course at the local dealer to learn the basics. I rode dirt bikes and enduro's a bit as a teen (I'm 40 now) but didn't think that qualified me for anything. I was very impressed with how much information was provided in the class room and the way the physical skills were developed on the range. I walked away from the course thinking that any new rider who jumps on a bike without some form of formal education has a screw loose.

 

I had a buddy who had gotten married and had travelled the country on a HD with his now wife, but they were selling their bike to buy a 5th wheel to go to NASCAR races (yes, she's a cool woman). So, my first bike was a 2002 HD springer softail.

 

The bike scared the crap out of me at the beginning. I replaced the buckhorn bars with some flatter ones to rotate my wrists to a more horizontal position, but the bike was still hard to turn at parking lot speeds.

 

After a few hundred miles and some skill and confidence development, I enrolled with it in the ERC course. Again, I walked away with a lot more knowledge and skills and a huge appreciation for safety. I would find deserted parking lots and work on various skills like slow turns and breaking.

 

In November, after riding the HD less than 3000 miles in 1.5 years, I considered selling it and ending my career as a motorcyclist. I ended up in the local BMW shop and asked what they'd give for it. Somehow, I ended up on Alton Brown's RT from his Food Network show for a test drive. All thoughts of not having a bike quickly dissappeared.

 

Woodie, I don't know if I've answered your question. Basically, I agree with Houck's concept that the most important thing a rider brings to the ride is between the ears. So, I've been trying to learn by reading, sucking up info on this board, practicing, and thinking "what if... (that car turns in front of me, there is a pot hole in the middle of this corner, etc.)" while I'm riding. I now have a little more than 1000 miles on the RT and I'm beginning to get comfortable on it. I will get some more formal education on the bike this spring. And I hope to be riding it for years to come.

[Woodie]

This one is for Woodie (and is probably more info than he requested)...

 

I rode dirt bikes and enduro's a bit as a teen (I'm 40 now) but didn't think that qualified me for anything. I was very impressed with how much information was provided in the class room and the way the physical skills were developed on the range. I walked away from the course thinking that any new rider who jumps on a bike without some form of formal education has a screw loose.

 

In November, after riding the HD less than 3000 miles in 1.5 years, I considered selling it and ending my career as a motorcyclist. I ended up in the local BMW shop and asked what they'd give for it.

Thanks for posting! I'm curious about the lack of miles on the HD, and yet walking into a different dealership. I understand the low-speed difficulties w/ a cruiser style bike, but then you turned around and bought a big, (top) heavy, bike.

 

I'm interested in the thought process, and why did *you* bother with the classes that many other riders are apparently skipping. BTW, I highly recommend the Lee Parks "Total Control" class, if you can find one in your area. They're a nice follow-on after the ERC.

[jssgranite]

Why low mileage:

 

The cool factor of the Harley wore off. It looked nice, sounded cool and had gobs of torque. But the riding position bugged my back on a ride longer than one hour. The front tire was skinny and followed every little groove in the highway. It really wasn't practical. I just found myself not WANTING to get on the bike. Now I look for excuses to ride!

 

I also felt like the odd man out in the HD crowd. Many of the things I learned at the MSF courses turned into habits. After being trained to not throw a leg over the bike until helmet, jacket, gloves, boots are all on, I kept doing the same. And I discovered I was the only (with rare exceptions) guy I ever saw on a HD with a full face (OK, a flip up). But, after looking at the helmet diagram in the early pages of PM, I'm happy my jaw and teeth are protected. Hell, I even bought pants!

 

Why sell the HD:

 

After 10 months of blissful divorce, the XW decided last summer she didn't like the custody situation and I now have a big legal bill to pay. I was looking at a lot of cash sitting in my garage not getting used. HD gave me a ridiculously low number. Ebay seems to be populated with resellers. I ended up selling it to a buddy of the guy who sold it to me. But before that, I stopped into Atlanta BMW. I put granite counters into the owner's house before I bought the HD. He had told me not to get it. Anyway, he put me on the RT for a test ride. The numbers worked and I decided I was just going to have to live with some debt for a while because I didn't want her to dictate how I live my life.

 

but then you turned around and bought a big, (top) heavy, bike

 

Yes and no. The RT is about 100lbs lighter than the HD. It also has 7 gallons of gas sitting way up high and the CG is much higher. Still, it feels much lighter and agile and capable to me than the HD ever did. The RT inspires confidence where the HD did not.

 

I am also curious about other rider's thoughts/opinions/considerations re: safety, gear, etc. After spending some time in Florida over the holidays I began a thread entitled "Floridiots" in which I expressed some unfavorable judgements about most of the riders I saw tooling around in Broward county. I rightfuly got flamed and it was probably going to get worse if the thread hadn't been locked down. However poorly I initiated the conversation, I really wanted to have a discussion about what drives people to make the choices they make. What they consider. What concerns they disregard. So, thank you for expressing an interest in my thoughts.

[russell_bynum]

This is good stuff!

[TN_R_Girl]

I really wanted to have a discussion about what drives people to make the choices they make. What they consider. What concerns they disregard. So, thank you for expressing an interest in my thoughts.

 

Jeff,

 

There are innumerable threads about ATTGATT on this forum, but I'm happy to share my personal take on it.

 

Why Ride?

I had "ridden" a real motorcycle perhaps twice (up and down a quiet residential street kind of thing) before Summer '03. That's when I found out two of my older brothers were doing some serious riding together on BMWs and truthfully, I wanted "in" on the conversations, camraderie and to have something in common.

 

Why Full Gear?

With the promise of a loaner bike if I'd go and get my motorcycle endorsement, I signed up for the MSF basic class. That September I took my first "real" ride of 200+ miles on a K75.

 

Both brothers are fanatical about ATTGATT. Kurt wouldn't let me so much as touch the bike before all my gear was on. Initially I was annoyed, but when I finally got up to speed for the first time, I understood why: that pavement was going to HURT if I hit it!!

 

This lesson was hammered home roughly 2 years later when I totalled my '99 R1100 ... and walked away with bruised legs, a sore shoulder and a very bruised ego in May '05.

 

Had it not been for full gear, I would have been a total mess. 'Nuff said.

 

Why Continuing Education?

My brother Kurt also impressed upon me the utmost necessity of on-going education if I were to minimize the inherent risks of riding.

 

I replaced the '99 with the '04 pictured in my avatar roughly a month after the accident and promptly signed up for the MSF experienced rider course in the hopes of exorcising the accident demons. It helped some, but in reality it was another year, several thousand miles and the interim purchase of a smaller bike to re-instill the confidence I lost after the crash.

 

I'm convinced ongoing education is the key to continued improvement (as you seem to have figured). I'm set up for the RideSmart in March and hoping to schedule Freddie Spencer this year. Riding is a skill. For me, it was not particularly a natural skill. Continued education is a way for me to continue improving that skill and enjoying my relatively new-found hobby as safely as possible.

 

What Do I Disregard?

The commentary of my non-riding friends who think I'm absolutely nuts to engage in such an inherently and essentially dangerous activity

[russell_bynum]

Riding is a skill. For me, it was not particularly a natural skill.

 

I think it's that way for everyone. Most of the stuff you have to do on a bike are contrary to what your brain natually wants to do.

 

Want to turn left...just turn the bars to the left. WRONG!!! Turn left to go right.

 

Coming into a corner too fast and there's a big telephone pole on the outside? Keep your eyes on that pole to make sure you miss it. WRONG!!! Target fixation, baby. Look where you want to go.

 

In a corner and running out of ground clearance? You want to slow down, so chop the throttle. WRONG!! (Unless you like dragging hard parts and losing the front end.)

 

The sport is full of stuff like that where, in order to not die, you have to do something that your brain is SCREAMING at you to NOT do.

[TN_R_Girl]

How true!!!

 

I guess I was thinking more in terms of experience ... you know, the guys who "rode dirt bikes as little kids" then graduated to bigger bikes as they got older. Even if it was just dirt bikes, there is some natural skill that comes from exposure to motorcycles from a young age.

 

I was in my mid-twenties before I took those mini-cruises along the residential streets and about 35 before I took my first MSF course.

 

So, when I say it did not come "naturally" I mean I didn't have any real frame of reference ... it was like learning a whole new language.

[russell_bynum]

I am also curious about other rider's thoughts/opinions/considerations re: safety, gear, etc. After spending some time in Florida over the holidays I began a thread entitled "Floridiots" in which I expressed some unfavorable judgements about most of the riders I saw tooling around in Broward county. I rightfuly got flamed and it was probably going to get worse if the thread hadn't been locked down. However poorly I initiated the conversation, I really wanted to have a discussion about what drives people to make the choices they make. What they consider. What concerns they disregard. So, thank you for expressing an interest in my thoughts.

 

One thing I try to remember: Pretty much the rest of the population thinks motorcycle riders are all daredevils with a death wish...and there's some merit to that opinion. We're riding unstable, vulnerable, dangerous vehicles with power-to-weight ratios better than many racing cars. We're exposed to the elements and we don't have much carrying capacity. By most logical measures, riding a motorcycle is a stupid, irresponsible thing to do.

 

So...having one stupid irresponsible person criticize another stupid irresponsible person for being more stupid and irresponsible is somewhat silly.

 

 

I'm a big proponent of good protective gear, and it's saved my ass (and other important body parts) several times. However, I do generally compromise with my protective gear (just as we all do). I wear a 1-piece Aerostich rather than 1-piece racing leathers because the Roadcrafter is more practical and easy to deal with than leathers. My street boots are far more comfortable than my track boots, but they aren't going to provide the same level of protection. I do wear the same helmet and gloves on the street and track because the stuff that provides good protection on the track is comfortable enough for me to wear on the street as well. It's all about compromise and where we decide to draw the line of what's acceptable to us. I could get better protection by wearing my track gear on the street, but I choose to lower my level of protection to gain some practicality and all-day comfort.

 

Some of the guys on the sportbike boards wouldn't even go to the corner store for milk without a full race suit with back protector/gloves/boots/full-face helmet, etc. Some folks here ride in Blue Jeans with a motorcycle jacket and a flip-front helmet. We're all drawing the line of compromise between comfort/practicality/protection/price/looks/etc in different places, and that's fine....considering we're all stupid and irresponsible anyway.

[jssgranite]

Target fixation, baby. Look where you want to go.

 

It isn't the pole that gets my attention. It us usually another vehicle. I can still hear the instructor from the BMC yelling "TURN YOUR HEAD!!!" Seems to work every time.

 

You want to slow down, so chop the throttle.

 

Yep. This thread started because Woodie asked a question in another section where I posted a small report from this weekend's ride. I spent some time on the twisties and made this mistake once or twice. No bad outcomes, but the lessons were reinforced: turn head, countersteer, don't roll off throttle. It felt natural to want to back off and for me took some experience to trust the bike to hold the line.

 

Shannon - nice pic! I'm glad you were physically ok. I can't imagine the process it took to regain confidence. Good to see you're still at it. Thanks for your comments.

[russell_bynum]

It felt natural to want to back off and for me took some experience to trust the bike to hold the line.

 

Totally. If memory serves, most single-vehicle motorcycle accidents are a rider who runs wide in a turn. But how many of those folks were using all of the bike's turning potential? Could they have tighened up the turn? Most folks aren't comfortable leaning them bikes over to the max, and they just freeze at whatever lean angle they've got (or worse...stand it up) and run off the road. Or mabye they got in and the turn tighened up and they got spooked...so they chopped the throttle. Now, in addition to the "turn tightening" problem, they've got an unstable chassis, less ground clearance, and an overloaded front end. That sort of situation would tend to make a rider tense up, right? And guess what else is a really bad thing to do while cornering on a bike? If you guessed "Tense up", you're right.

 

The whole situation snowballs when one mistake compounds the rest. The rider didn't read the road well, and came into the turn too fast. 2 mistakes: Road reading, and out-riding your sight distance. The turn tightened up and they chopped the throttle. Another mistake: Throttle control. That caused the chassis instability, ground clearance, and front end traction problem. Which caused the rider to tense up. Another mistake: stay lose on the bars. That translates all of the bumps and ripples in the road to the rider, and since they're rigid, those bumps go right back into the chassis. Plus, the front wheel isn't allowed to turn left/right freely to follow the direction of travel...so you're eating more traction by inducing small slides.

 

That's four relatively minor mistakes all compounding to create a real problem for the rider.

[TN_R_Girl]

nice pic! I'm glad you were physically ok. I can't imagine the process it took to regain confidence. Good to see you're still at it. Thanks for your comments.

 

Don't know that I'd call it "nice" but it most definitely tells a story.

 

Each time I see one of those photos, I am reminded how very lucky I am to still be counted as one of the stupid and irresponsible

[russell_bynum]

Each time I see one of those photos, I am reminded how very lucky I am to still be counted as one of the stupid and irresponsible

 

Same here.

 

Even though I'm not sure I could bring myself to look at it, I wish I had a picture of my beautiful Tuono upside down on those rocks in the ditch in Colorado last summer. And that was a crash at very "sane" speeds (The last thought the guy behind me had before he saw me go down was "Why the hell is he going so slow?") while taking a very conservative late-apex line.

[TN_R_Girl]

And that was a crash at very "sane" speeds (The last thought the guy behind me had before he saw me go down was "Why the hell is he going so slow?")

 

Funny how that works! My brother Brent had been following me all day and said he thought the same thing about me!

[TN_R_Girl]

I wish I had a picture of my beautiful Tuono upside down on those rocks in the ditch in Colorado last summer.

[Irish1]

I enrolled in a MSF course before I bought an R1100RT after being off bikes for 25+ years. I also bought a smaller, lighter bike to practice skills on at the same time. I knew I only had the skill set of a new rider because all the abilities I'd developed decades before had eroded and I'm less coordinated and in worse shape than I was in the halycon days. I enjoyed the course, and I saw I had some reservoir of muscle memory retained: that was great. But the idea of learning u-turns in tight spaces and the other low-speed skills didn't make sense, and didn't begin to make a newbie competent for high-speed street work. Braking from 15 MPH is hugely different than emergency braking and steering around an object at 70 MPH. Basically I believe MSF schools should be changed to include longer times on the bike, and at least a two weekend curriculum, with a couple days spent at higher speeds. I think it's a huge shuck to believe that if someone does a 2 day, low-speed school that they should be qualified to ride a bike by the state DMV. But then I also believe that car licensing should be hugely more difficult than it is now. Curmudgeon here.

[jbr7t]

When I got my first bike in 2003, Honda Nighthawk 750 I signed up for the basic MSF class. (I think VA. now requires it to get M endorsement) Anyway, the course really taught me a lot and I felt much more comfortable after taking it. I'm hoping to take the advanced class in the near future.

 

As for the protective clothing, I used to be very lax with it. Sometimes I'd wear my jacket sometimes I'd say oh, I'm just going around the corner I don't need it. Then I saw a friend of mine get hit by a car and I became religious about having my jacket on. I recently got a pair of the Olympia pants too, so now I have protection head to toe and try never to ride without it. I still have some weak moments but I'm tryin. I know it's important and I certainly want to be able to walk away when my time comes to meet the pavement.

 

[jssgranite]

Don't know that I'd call it "nice" but it most definitely tells a story.

 

Each time I see one of those photos, I am reminded how very lucky I am to still be counted as one of the stupid and irresponsible

 

Yes, it does tell a story. One where I'm really surprised and happy for you that you came away with as few injuries as you described.

 

I also like the "stupid and irresponsible" concept. That makes a whole lot of sense.

[TN_R_Girl]

One where I'm really surprised and happy for you that you came away with as few injuries as you described.

 

Me too ... although, the "sore shoulder" turned out to be a rotator cuff with a full thickness tear requiring surgery about 6 months later.

 

The crash was a low-side gone bad ... as I slid off the road, the bike hit a tree lying at the back of a small berm. As the tires hit, the bike rebounded and tossed me a#! over teakettle as it flipped up and into the air around me. I landed face down on my stomach (kinda like a crime scene tape outline) and the bike came to rest about 20 yards away.

 

Like I said, I'm so lucky to still be counted amongst the stupid & irresponsible

[TyTass]

The whole situation snowballs when one mistake compounds the rest. The rider didn't read the road well, and came into the turn too fast. 2 mistakes: Road reading, and out-riding your sight distance. The turn tightened up and they chopped the throttle. Another mistake: Throttle control. That caused the chassis instability, ground clearance, and front end traction problem. Which caused the rider to tense up. Another mistake: stay lose on the bars. That translates all of the bumps and ripples in the road to the rider, and since they're rigid, those bumps go right back into the chassis. Plus, the front wheel isn't allowed to turn left/right freely to follow the direction of travel...so you're eating more traction by inducing small slides.

 

That's four relatively minor mistakes all compounding to create a real problem for the rider.

 

That pretty much describes my only bad wreck ('84) in my previous life riding. I too took an MSF course to get "back on the road" - after I healed, that is. I rode for another 6 years and then stopped.

 

I'm back on the road but I still hit parking lots for slow speed practice at least once a week - always in full protective gear everytime I throw my leg over the bike. It was beat into me, you could say.

 

I'll be taking every course I can find the time for - it's never a waste.

 

Threads like this are also beneficial - gives me the opportunity to soak up more info, advice, techniques, etc. from advanced riders. More to practice.

 

I do agree that courses "at speed" would be helpful.

[LuckyLeif]

Braking from 15 MPH is hugely different than emergency braking and steering around an object at 70 MPH. Basically I believe MSF schools should be changed to include longer times on the bike, and at least a two weekend curriculum, with a couple days spent at higher speeds. I think it's a huge shuck to believe that if someone does a 2 day, low-speed school that they should be qualified to ride a bike by the state DMV. But then I also believe that car licensing should be hugely more difficult than it is now. Curmudgeon here.

I'd expect most MSF instructors would agree with you. The only problem being that in our state (MD) there is a 3 month waiting list to get into a class. Doubling the content would increase this to a 6-month wait, and likely double the cost. A solution for the lag time would be for more riders to sign up and become instructors. My SWAG is that less than 1 of 500 members of this forum are MSF instructors.

[St_Louis_Don]

For at speed education, try - http://www.stayinsafe.com/