Roadside Diagnosis

[Global_Rider]

On my airhead, if I break down at the side of the road, within a few minutes I can tell you what the problem is; fuel flow, carbs, ignition (coil, ignition module or sensor pick-up). BTW, catastrophic mechanical failures are rare and charging/battery failures give you early warnings, so they aren't being discussed.

 

What steps do take to diagnose/pin-point the problem on an oilhead?

[Stan Walker]

On my airhead, if I break down at the side of the road, within a few minutes I can tell you what the problem is.....What steps do take to diagnose/pin-point the problem on an oilhead?

 

Well, in 150,000 R11x0 RT miles it's been pretty easy so far.

 

1) No light from headlight. Replaced bulb. Several of these so far.

2) No air in tire. Plug hole caused by nail.

3) Bent rim from rolling over Xmas tree. Trust me, this one wasn't hard to diagnose. Tire still held air so I rode it home and replaced tire and rim.

 

That's it so far, but I'll keep rolling and hoping for something more chalanging.

 

Stan

[Global_Rider]

That's it so far, but I'll keep rolling and hoping for something more chalanging.

 

Stan

 

Stan, its "challenging".

 

BTW, same with my airheads. Actually on them there is far less to go wrong, yet they are easier to diagnose. The total opposite on the oilheads; more to go wrong and harder to diagnose, by the looks of it.

[Don_Eilenberger]

Stan, its "challenging".

Being a bit pedantic aren't we?

BTW, same with my airheads. Actually on them there is far less to go wrong, yet they are easier to diagnose. The total opposite on the oilheads; more to go wrong and harder to diagnose, by the looks of it.

In reading your website - under "My BMWs" - I found:

 

I'll be able to more accurately comment on this new generation of BMW GS after I've had this model for a while. In my opinion, the older air cooled, aka "airhead" GSes are far superior in many ways. In a nutshell, this generation of GS is not one that I would be willing to take on a "real" around the world adventure. For those adventures, simplicity is at the top of my list. Fuel pumps, injectors and computers don't cut it when it comes to contaminated gas, heat and vibration.

 

Given that opinion, and it might be a fine opinion - the question comes to mind - why are you riding an oilhead? It appears you've answered your own question.

 

What I found curious was right under that statement was the statement that you'd bought another oilhead GS, which if you're not going to use it on round-the-world rides (not one of my ambitions actually) - why bother?

 

Seems just a tad odd - sort of like someone coming to the campfire to chat and then pissing on the fire..

 

But - perhaps I've simply misunderstood. If so - basic troubleshooting remains the same.

 

Check for ignition

Check for fuel

Check for air-in

Check for compression

 

If you have all these the engine should run. If you don't - figure out why you don't. Fuel injection REALLY isn't a big mystery - to me it is MUCH simpler than juggling jets and needles on Bing carbs. Electronic ignition has been around long enough that it's pretty much a known quantity, and aside from some random HES failures (and they don't ALL fail) - it's pretty much bulletproof. Certainly more bulletproof and less prone to failure than airhead charging systems (BTDT - I've owned airheads, K's and now an oilhead..)

 

Will bad gas get'cha? Could - be better if you're planning an around the world to move the fuel filter out of the tank and carry a few spares... other than that, I can't imagine much that would give me pause in using an oilhead except they're really way too big and heavy for serious off-road use (I know - heresy - sorry, I learned to ride on real off-road bikes.. ones I could pickup easily by myself when I fell down..)

 

Heat and vibration? I haven't really heard of failures caused by these on the oilheads - but perhaps I haven't owned one long enough or tried a "real" around the world trip (I have NO intention of this..)

 

Sorry in advance if I've completely misunderstood you - but your question really makes little sense given the apparent assumption of airhead superiority for your needs and wants.

[KMG_365]

That's it so far, but I'll keep rolling and hoping for something more chalanging.

 

Stan

 

Stan, its "challenging".

Ooooh, THAT one could've sure used a smiley.

[Stan Walker]

Stan, its "challenging".

 

<sigh> I concede, I give, I lose....

 

One spelling mistake and my whole point is defeated....

 

Perhaps you could explain this simple thing to me. Just how did you get so good at troubleshooting airheads? At the rate my oilheads breakdown I will need to do about a zillion miles to become as good as you are.

 

Stan

[T__]

On my airhead, if I break down at the side of the road, within a few minutes I can tell you what the problem is; fuel flow, carbs, ignition (coil, ignition module or sensor pick-up). BTW, catastrophic mechanical failures are rare and charging/battery failures give you early warnings, so they aren't being discussed.

 

What steps do take to diagnose/pin-point the problem on an oilhead?

 

Global_Rider, on my oilhead, if I break down the fist thing I reach for is my cell phone & the second thing I reach for is my credit card.. That’s all a person really needs..

 

But just in case I also carry a small cheap digital volt- ohm meter,, a small 12v test light, a length of 14 gauge wire, a couple of test leads, & a good tire repair kit.. Anything that can’t find then it’s on the trailer or hook..

 

Twisty

[Ken H.]

BTW, same with my airheads. Actually on them there is far less to go wrong, yet they are easier to diagnose. The total opposite on the oilheads; more to go wrong and harder to diagnose, by the looks of it.

Yeah, and so was a model-T or a '49 Plymouth, or a '56 Chevy, or a '72 Ford, or a 2002 Toyota compared to a 2007 ___________. Or for that matter an oilhead vs a hexhead, but what's your point? That we shouldn't have progress in vehicle designs? Or that we should roll back the clock to the particular point in time that you happen to be comfortable with?

 

Someday somebody will be saying, "Man the CAN-bus equipped hexheads were simple compare to these positron-head, synod-drive bikes we have today."

 

Sorry, just don't get the point of taking a random jab of a particular point in technology as being inferior to a particular earlier point in technology.

[philbytx]

Problems ? Whats a problem

[Global_Rider]

Don, a simple answer to the very simple question would have done. Also, this thread isn't about justifying my second oilhead purchase. And I fully know what needs to be there for an engine to run.

 

They never fail. Tell that to the guy in Tierra del Fuego that was waiting for a fuel pump, an item that really isn't necessary unless of course you have fuel infection. I'm also fully aware that when these high tech bikes run, they run...perfectly well...just like anything else. The difference is when they don't, you're in more trouble.

 

Being able to diagnose a problem roadside can do two things; possibly get your going again or at least enable you to order the correct part when services are not available locally.

 

BTW Don, if I could have bought a factory new 2004 R100 GS Paris Dakar in red/white instead of my 2004 R1150 GS Adventure...I would have done so...for the same money.

[Global_Rider]

Sorry, just don't get the point of taking a random jab of a particular point in technology as being inferior to a particular earlier point in technology.

 

What jab was taken? I have both airheads and oilheads. The fact is my airheads are more easily repaired roadside, not that I ever had to. I'm just trying to figure out how to diagnose oilheads as efficiently, should I ever need to.

 

Ken, you READ it as your oilhead being more "inferior" to airheads. Neither one is more superior. But one is certainly more complex. Lord, do people ever get defensive! I got one of these and its the best syndrome.

[Don_Eilenberger]

Don, a simple answer to the very simple question would have done. Also, this thread isn't about justifying my second oilhead purchase. And I fully know what needs to be there for an engine to run.

 

They never fail. Tell that to the guy in Tierra del Fuego that was waiting for a fuel pump, an item that really isn't necessary unless of course you have fuel infection.

Or tell Bob Higdon when he had to abandon a cross-Russia ride on his R80GS because the charging system went tits-up. It wasn't fixable there either.. (Bob now owns 3 K75's - and loves the lack of repairs he's had to do on them..)

I'm also fully aware that when these high tech bikes run, they run...perfectly well...just like anything else. The difference is when they don't, you're in more trouble.

 

Being able to diagnose a problem roadside can do two things; possibly get your going again or at least enable you to order the correct part when services are not available locally.

Agreed - but looking at your webpages - except for the trip up Canada to the Labrador dam - it seems most of your "global" touring has probably been within a day of a BMW dealer (I envy your Alps rides..), so any breakdown could be addressed as someone else said - with a cell phone and a wallet.

BTW Don, if I could have bought a factory new 2004 R100 GS Paris Dakar in red/white instead of my 2004 R1150 GS Adventure...I would have done so...for the same money.

Good for you - you've asked why people are being "defensive" - I don't think they are, they're just questioning what appears to be your assumption that an airhead is superior for certain rides over an oilhead because you might find it more difficult to troubleshoot.

 

I would agree with you IF your troubleshooting skills stop at airhead level, but a lot of people here have gone much beyond that and feel quite comfortable taking their oilheads into the wilds where cell phones don't even work.

 

Three friends did the ride in Labrador that you did - on their R1150/1200GS' and Adventures. Got there, turned around came back. No mechanical interventions were needed..

Go figure. I don't think they ever thought about any mechanical issues.

 

My experience with BMW bikes goes back a ways - and I've found each new generation has new things to learn - but they've also become increasingly reliable along with increasing "complexity".. so the tradeoff is not having to stop and exercise my diagnostic skills as often as the earlier technology required. That's a very acceptable tradeoff for me - I'd rather spend a day riding the bike than sitting on the side of the road trying to fix it.

[Global_Rider]

I'd rather spend a day riding the bike than sitting on the side of the road trying to fix it.

 

Don, lets just forget it. You obviously have no input of any value. You're missing far too many points and you're going off on a tangent.

 

Next time you ask a question, I'll talk about widgets!

[David]

I'd rather spend a day riding the bike than sitting on the side of the road trying to fix it.

 

Don, lets just forget it. You obviously have no input of any value. You're missing far too many points and you're going off on a tangent.

 

And you wonder why people typically get a little prickly interacting with you online?

 

Don is a very respected and knowledgeable BMW rider in terms of mechanical knowledge--just thought I'd throw that in. I don't know him personally, but I've read his stuff for many years.

 

I do disagree with Don, however, in that I do think people have been getting defensive. It's not so much because of the information (you are generally correct as an online advice giver, from what I can tell), but it's more the apparent smugness and condescension. What I mean is threads like this, your dismissal of those who take more expensive organized tours, your mocking long distance riders (see your signature), and I could go on and on.

 

Anyway, there's some free feedback about how you might come across differently online (in a more self-aware manner) so that you're valuable input isn't overlooked. I've learned a lot from reading your stuff, too.

[Jim Moore]

I'm just gonna jump in and say that Don E is the MAN! he has helped me out more than once.

[Stan Walker]

Don.....You obviously have no input of any value.

 

Well, I would guess that would be true of anyone who disagrees with your position.

 

It's a shame as the trade offs between a more reliable bike that is harder to fix (oilhead) vs. a less reliable bike that is easier to fix (airhead) would be interesting. But your style of debate doesn't encourage me to continue.

 

Maybe Don will.

 

Stan

[Global_Rider]

Don is a very respected and knowledgeable BMW rider in terms of mechanical knowledge--just thought I'd throw that in.

 

Well let me bow at the ankles.

 

He isn't too knowledgeable when it come to answering my question. Instead, he rambles off on a tangent.

 

Maybe he can explain why the guy with the R1100GS in Tierra del Fuego was SOL waiting for a fuel pump while my friend on his carburetted F650 was rolling the next day.

 

Then he goes rambling off about Labrador and how a bunch of oilheads made it back without trouble. Now I don't know if he is capable of figuring this out or not...it isn't a question of reliability, its a question of being able to do something about it when it does go TU.

[4wheeldog]

When I was young, failures that caused one to wind up on the roadside were common. I fixed many, many cars and bikes in a few minutes. Now, very few cars and bikes wind up on the side of the road, comparatively speaking. The things that used to fail almost never do, anymore. When they do, it often does so in the "No start" mode more often than not. I have not had a get out and get under on any vehicle in a long time. The only exception was the catastrophic failure of the final drive.....Not something that one fixes on the side of the road. It did get me to town.......If you can call Rock Springs Wyoming a town.

By the way, tubeless tires are much easier to plug than tube types. That I have done a lot of, on both types....I have what you call bad tire kharma.

[David]

Alex, again, the point isn't just the data--it's the presentation. The most successful people are those who don't just concentrate on the data but wrap it so that any given human doesn't shut the door and miss the data.

 

It doesn't seem like you value that, so I'll shut up and leave you alone in this thread. But please don't be surprised if you alienate lots of folks unnecessarily.

 

Take care.

[Firefight911]

[quoteMaybe he can explain why the guy with the R1100GS in Tierra del Fuego was SOL waiting for a fuel pump while my friend on his carburetted F650 was rolling the next day.

 

Perhaps a stagecoach is more reliable than a car?? Afterall, with this logic technological advances are bad.

 

Then again, stagecaoches are probably not very good because technology put the horse in front of it and if it goes TU, you're not roadside fixing that either!!

[Huzband]

By the way, tubeless tires are much easier to plug than tube types. That I have done a lot of, on both types....I have what you call bad tire kharma.

Boy, ain't dat da trufe! Every time I've tried to plug a tubed tire, it ended up flatter than ever.

 

I couldn't help myself. Just seemed like this thread needed a shot of humor.

[Global_Rider]

It doesn't seem like you value that, so I'll shut up and leave you alone in this thread. But please don't be surprised if you alienate lots of folks unnecessarily.

 

Alienate? How did my initial thread alienate people, unless of course they get defensive for no reason at all.

 

 

Here you go...oilhead rear drives fail. Let the show begin!

 

David, I'll just resort to providing sound advice on these forums instead of asking a question I'll never get an answer to.

[Boffin]

Alex - it seems to me your question boils down to what if you can't get a spare part somewhere. If your friends carbureted F650 needed an ignition module would he have been SOL?

My last airhead had an exhaust valve fail, can you get that fixed in Kazakhstan? In other words it boils down to sh!t happens, if you have the spares you are OK, if not then tough.

Modern vehicles are much more reliable than older ones and that means you are much less likely to need to troubleshoot them but when you do the routine is the same - Spark, Fuel, Compression. A little knowledge, some tools and a multimeter will allow roadside diagnosis of most faults. Finding a fault where you cannot get spares is a problem, but no more so now than in the past. Should you want to know what spares to take on a journey to the wilder places - ask BMW. At least ask BMW UK, they have a department set up to advise round-the world riders on how to set up the bike, what spares to take and how to fault find them.

 

Andy

[tomk99r11]

Must be a small small world when everyone else in it is an ignorant idiot boob huh.

 

ANY bike can go TU anywhere, and ANY rider can be stumped as to how to get it going. Paul Glaves will have far far greater success (not luck) at that than 99+% of us. Does that mean the rest of us are DA's? I guess to one poster in this thread it does. Must be a lonely lonely world for that guy. JMO!

[Global_Rider]

I couldn't help myself. Just seemed like this thread needed a shot of humor.

 

What it really needed was a how-to answer, but I'm being unreasonable considering most riders ride where cell phones and credit cards work.

[Firefight911]

 

Your answer has already been given. When two bikes of different age breakdown on teh side of the road, you troubleshoot them the same. No difference!!! One might have technology beyond that of Yabba Dabba Do but the troubleshooting is the same.

 

Suck-Bang-Squeeze-Blow. This is called the internal combustion engine.

 

I'm out!! Head hitting wall hurts too much!!

[Ken H.]

I'll just resort to providing sound advice on these forums instead of asking a question I'll never get an answer to.

Must be nice to already know everything there is to know, such that you can presume no one else will ever be able to help you with a problem.

 

I should be so lucky!

 

And you wonder why people think you sometimes come across as condescending???

 

Shish!

[Mike O]

...Finding a fault where you cannot get spares is a problem, but no more so now than in the past...

Andy

Hey Andy,

 

Two key words above really focus on the issues of 'field failures' (or roadside breakdowns, if you will) and 'spares'. The key word Finding really relates to the original question in this thread. Diagnosing a fault is a function of the number of things that can cause that fault and the more complex the system (and the total number of components that can contribute to the fault) the greater the skill required. Modern engine systems with computers gathering multiple sensor data can cause one to spend a greater amount of time diagnosing compared to simpler, say 70's technology engine systems.

 

The second key word(s) get spares is really a question of what you're willing to carry with you or how available it is relative to your location. I believe that the debates between newer technology (and their inherent better reliability) need to be weighed against the easier diagnosibility and less reliability of older technology.

 

It's a gamble...Do you feel competent enough to diagnose a field failure AND repair it, or would you rather ride a more complex but reliable bike at the expense of higher complexity in needed skill to move on.

 

Me...I'd vote for a more reliable bike, carrying tools that I feel assist in my competence level. Beyond that, my Mastercard, and KOA Towing coverage will take care of those failures I can't solve.

 

Regards,

 

Mike O

[Boffin]

I couldn't help myself. Just seemed like this thread needed a shot of humor.

 

What it really needed was a how-to answer, but I'm being unreasonable considering most riders ride where cell phones and credit cards work.

 

Having re-read your original post that simple question seems to mean 'How do I find any fault that may possibly happen on an unspecified oilhead BMW using unspecified diagnostic tools'. The simple answer has already been given - credit card and cell phone. I suspect that you want the long answer which has also already been given - Basic diagnostics are the same. Finding out why there is no fuel/spark/compression just needs a little more time and knowledge and a few extra tools.

 

Andy

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

On my airhead, if I break down at the side of the road, within a few minutes I can tell you what the problem is; fuel flow, carbs, ignition (coil, ignition module or sensor pick-up). BTW, catastrophic mechanical failures are rare and charging/battery failures give you early warnings, so they aren't being discussed.

 

What steps do take to diagnose/pin-point the problem on an oilhead?

 

Not much different, from what I've seen. There may be a few more possible root causes for lack of fuel or spark (TPS, HES, Motronic, to name a few), but the list isn't that much longer - at least in terms of what is most likely - and the diagnostic procedures are pretty well-understood. Anyone traveling the hinterlands is wise to know how to diagnose/repair as much as possible, regardless of his or her vehicle choice.

 

To some extent you are right that in moving to a fuel-injected, computer-controlled engine we have simultaneously increased reliability (i.e. freedom from breakdown) and calamity/inconvenience in the event of breakdown (i.e. parts need to be replaced, not adjusted/cleaned), but IMO the tradeoffs are well worth it. A few minor spares can be carried for cross-country travel (e.g. a fuel filter, an HES), and if one is travelling through Mongolia, a few more spares (like a fuel pump) would certainly be wise. Some components make for expensive and/or unwieldy spares (like the Motronic itself), but the reliability of those components seems to rival the reliability of more conventional components (like wheels, welded subframes, and pistons) about which an adventure rider seldom worries.

[Global_Rider]

Alex - it seems to me your question boils down to what if you can't get a spare part somewhere. If your friends carbureted F650 needed an ignition module would he have been SOL?

 

Andy, my initial question wasn’t about that, although there are parts on an oilhead that aren’t necessary for an airhead to run…fuel pump, sensors, injectors, etc. I can’t think of anything the other way around. But this isn't even about that as so many have turned it into.

 

My last airhead had an exhaust valve fail, can you get that fixed in Kazakhstan? In other words it boils down to sh!t happens, if you have the spares you are OK, if not then tough.

 

Exactly why my initial post stated to forget about catastrophic mechanical failures as they are extremely rare. Nothing is failproof. As for being in the middle of nowhere, you'd want to be able to diagnose the fault, so that only one parts has to be flown in.

 

Modern vehicles are much more reliable than older ones and that means you are much less likely to need to troubleshoot them but when you do the routine is the same - Spark, Fuel, Compression. A little knowledge, some tools and a multimeter will allow roadside diagnosis of most faults. Finding a fault where you cannot get spares is a problem, but no more so now than in the past.

 

Are they more reliable? I’ve seen the same failures on both generations. My troubleshootong skills aren’t the issue. On an airhead, I insert a spare plug in an ignition wire, ground the casing and hit the starter button. I see spark, then all is most likely OK, if I don’t, I’ll flick the kill switch, if I then see spark, then I know my hall sensor or wiring to it has gone TU. That is what I was looking for, but for my oilhead which I am sure has many more steps to go through. Fuel pressure, what pin-outs on the Motronic to check and for what, etc.

 

I guess nobody has done up such a fault finding list for an oilhead. I’m planning on Iceland and some of the roads that shoot off the James Bay Highway and although I plan to take a simpler, lighter bike, I still like knowing my motorcycles inside out, that includes my oilheads. The same applied when I flew aircraft…there are those that are just glorified bus drivers and then there are those that know all the systems and how they work…the latter will have a better chance at a longer life.

[Global_Rider]

Two key words above really focus on the issues of 'field failures' (or roadside breakdowns, if you will) and 'spares'. The key word Finding really relates to the original question in this thread. Diagnosing a fault is a function of the number of things that can cause that fault and the more complex the system (and the total number of components that can contribute to the fault) the greater the skill required. Modern engine systems with computers gathering multiple sensor data can cause one to spend a greater amount of time diagnosing compared to simpler, say 70's technology engine systems.

 

Finally, someone understands! You'd think with oilheads being out over 15 years, someone would have put together a fault finding chart, sort of like a flow chart.

 

The same thing applies to airheads, but the fault finding process is so simple, a chart really isn't needed, although there is still a logical sequence to doing so.

[philbytx]

Most modern cars are fairly brain dead to diagnose. You just hitch up your scan tool and check the fault code. However, until there is a cohesive and comprehensive diagnostics system utilized by the motorcycle industry AND a scan tool is available for it, we are SOL except for resorting to basic troubleshooting skills. i.e. spark, fuel etc.

 

However, all the above aside, brown stuff do happen and, even if you have an airhead, if the wrong part goes TU, you are stuck until you obtain/fix it. Global express overnight mail makes obtaining parts a breeze...provided you understand what part is needed and where to obtain it! If you happen to be an "Xtreme whateverthehellyoucallyourself" and in the middle of BF Sahara Desert when it happens....you merely increased the odds of your brown stuff being more "Xtreme". Yer pay's yer money and yer takes yer choice!

 

Knowledge is power

[Stan Walker]

glorified bus drivers

 

Hey, would one of the admins change me from Dr. Phil to "glorified bus driver". Really cool Alex !!!!

 

Thanks

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

Finally, someone understands! You'd think with oilheads being out over 15 years, someone would have put together a fault finding chart, sort of like a flow chart.

 

The collective wisdom (or wisdom of the collective, as it were) is all out there, and has been amply and repeatedly demonstrated on this forum; it's just that no one has centralized/formalized it, except for the few pieces that have been written up for the M/C FAQ, and similar features on other sites. But you're right, no one, as far as I'm aware, has published a diagnostic flow chart that one could laminate and tuck under the saddle or in the glovebox.

[Mike O]

...The collective wisdom (or wisdom of the collective, as it were) is all out there,...

Excellent. That's all I needed to know!

 

Now, would all of you mind following me Saturday morning? I'm planning a LONG ride and I'll feel far more secure seeing the 'collective wisdom' in my rear view mirror.

 

Regards,

 

Mike O

[Firefight911]

...The collective wisdom (or wisdom of the collective, as it were) is all out there,...

Excellent. That's all I needed to know!

 

Now, would all of you mind following me Saturday morning? I'm planning a LONG ride and I'll feel far more secure seeing the 'collective wisdom' in my rear view mirror.

 

Regards,

 

Mike O

 

You may want to put some of that collective wisdom in front of you so they can plow the snow!!!!

[Boffin]

wisdom of the collective

 

Resistance is futile....

 

This has the makings of a worthwhile project. If I get time tomorrow afternoon (GMT) I will start on a basic flowchart and we can see if the collective can fill in a few (ok a lot of) blanks.

 

Andy

[philbytx]

Er, Perhaps we need to consider having an explanation of what exactly a flowchart IS and also a handy collapsible flowchart to put in one's tank bag (waterproof of course!)?

[Boffin]

A flowchart is a series of steps showing a process flow. For instance,

 

1. Engine will not start.

a) Is there a spark

Yes - go to next step

No - Does fuel pump run when key is turned

 

 

Put that into boxes with decision paths and you have a flowchart.

 

 

Andy

[tomk99r11]

Could use the troubleshooting guides out of service manuals as a start point/guide. Adaptations will obviously be required, but can ID things to eliminate, things that could be roadside type fixes most riders should be able to accomplish. Electrical probs will be what a lot of us have problems with, even with testers along.

[philbytx]

I know its late there Andy but I did put a "wink" at the end of that

[90RedRider]

Twisty , I carry most of the items you mentioned. What I would like to know is what to do with them to determine where my problem is, primarily the multi meter, the test leads, etc. Mechanical I can often figure but electrics tend to leave me with few clues . What would be the 1st few things I should check if battery has juice?